08/26 - Blockbuster/Verizon/whatever - Charlotte, NC - Post-Show Discussion

[McGrupp]

all generalizations are bad.

Generally speaking.

[VDB]

One of the points David Lemieux raised in reference to the Spring 90 box is that every show is good.  No duds.

The Grateful Dead have already released several shows from Spring '90 officially.

Can you imagine Phish, 20 years from now, releasing a couple of shows from Summer '12 - then releasing a boxset of 6 more?

The Grateful Dead found a new gear in Spring '90, Phish can't seem to find the clutch these days.

exactly.  That is what I am getting at with the comparison.  Well said Matt.

yup

exactly

To compare Spring '90 to Summer '12 is laughable.  I know what you're trying to say PG but it doesn't hold up.  There is no irony at all and they are apples and oranges.  I'm a HUGE Brent fan but Spring '90 is really the only post '78    that I listen to (Fall '94 every once in a great while).  Like others have said, you might get a decent mix cd out of the whole summer '12 tour but I can't see myself ever relistening to much of anything from this year.  I haven't listened to much of Leg 2 but when I hit the discussion thread, I know I haven't missed anything.  IMO, there is absolutely nothing going on except for, well, nothing.

But when you hit the discussion thread, how much of it is people bitching about song lengths or "they played BDTNL again" versus people who attended the shows bitching that it was a shitty show? By far, it's the former. Which is why I think we're really having two different kinds of conversation when we review concerts vs. recordings, and why I don't think it's entirely fair to say that Phish sucks donkey dick in 2012 because you don't find the recordings or streams to be too compelling.

I say this, by the way, as someone who finished last summer's southern run in Raleigh thinking that seeing Phish 3.0 basically wasn't doing it for me any more... I'm feeling better these days...

You're right about the discussion thread, which is my point.  There is nothing musically going on to discuss. How is it not fair to say they suck based on the recordings? Since I'm not at the show, what else is there?

That's why I'm saying it's one thing to declare that "recordings of Phish concerts in 2012 suck" but another to conclude from this that "Phish concerts suck" or "Phish sucks." I see a lot of people jumping to those final conclusions and, in my opinion, it's not necessarily accurate or fair. (I know sophist did attend Charlotte and he hated it; I attended and loved it; we're just going to have a divergent opinion there.)

Not all bands out there make a deliberate attempt to offer up an entirely different show night after night. You might get pretty bored going on Tom Petty or Paul McCartney tour, or listening to a recording of more than one show, but you could still go to one single show of theirs and come out of it saying you had a really great time. Even if the Bozeman Tweezers and Providence Bowies were a lifetime ago, I think Phish shows have enough going on musically to make going to a handful per tour or per year worthwhile, and even make checking out the recordings worthwhile. And if they don't have a terrifically long shelf life after that, so be it. The show was the show, and the recording is the recording. And again, those epic, monstrous jams also didn't exist in the earlier days when Phish was rising to its mid-90's prominence. The band grew on the strength of its diverse, energetic live shows (with occasional jamming), and its catalog of great songs. That seems to be the Phish formula nowadays as well.

[mehead]

One of the points David Lemieux raised in reference to the Spring 90 box is that every show is good.  No duds.

The Grateful Dead have already released several shows from Spring '90 officially.

Can you imagine Phish, 20 years from now, releasing a couple of shows from Summer '12 - then releasing a boxset of 6 more?

The Grateful Dead found a new gear in Spring '90, Phish can't seem to find the clutch these days.

exactly.  That is what I am getting at with the comparison.  Well said Matt.

yup

exactly

To compare Spring '90 to Summer '12 is laughable.  I know what you're trying to say PG but it doesn't hold up.  There is no irony at all and they are apples and oranges.  I'm a HUGE Brent fan but Spring '90 is really the only post '78    that I listen to (Fall '94 every once in a great while).  Like others have said, you might get a decent mix cd out of the whole summer '12 tour but I can't see myself ever relistening to much of anything from this year.  I haven't listened to much of Leg 2 but when I hit the discussion thread, I know I haven't missed anything.  IMO, there is absolutely nothing going on except for, well, nothing.

But when you hit the discussion thread, how much of it is people bitching about song lengths or "they played BDTNL again" versus people who attended the shows bitching that it was a shitty show? By far, it's the former. Which is why I think we're really having two different kinds of conversation when we review concerts vs. recordings, and why I don't think it's entirely fair to say that Phish sucks donkey dick in 2012 because you don't find the recordings or streams to be too compelling.

I say this, by the way, as someone who finished last summer's southern run in Raleigh thinking that seeing Phish 3.0 basically wasn't doing it for me any more... I'm feeling better these days...

You're right about the discussion thread, which is my point.  There is nothing musically going on to discuss. How is it not fair to say they suck based on the recordings? Since I'm not at the show, what else is there?

That's why I'm saying it's one thing to declare that "recordings of Phish concerts in 2012 suck" but another to conclude from this that "Phish concerts suck" or "Phish sucks." I see a lot of people jumping to those final conclusions and, in my opinion, it's not necessarily accurate or fair. (I know sophist did attend Charlotte and he hated it; I attended and loved it; we're just going to have a divergent opinion there.)

Not all bands out there make a deliberate attempt to offer up an entirely different show night after night. You might get pretty bored going on Tom Petty or Paul McCartney tour, or listening to a recording of more than one show, but you could still go to one single show of theirs and come out of it saying you had a really great time. Even if the Bozeman Tweezers and Providence Bowies were a lifetime ago, I think Phish shows have enough going on musically to make going to a handful per tour or per year worthwhile, and even make checking out the recordings worthwhile. And if they don't have a terrifically long shelf life after that, so be it. The show was the show, and the recording is the recording. And again, those epic, monstrous jams also didn't exist in the earlier days when Phish was rising to its mid-90's prominence. The band grew on the strength of its diverse, energetic live shows (with occasional jamming), and its catalog of great songs. That seems to be the Phish formula nowadays as well.

That might be the formula nowadays, but for me it's not working.  There is more to it than just the lack of jamming.  There is Trey's tone, Trey's inability to play a lot of their staple songs, the constant ripcord, etc.

[runawayjimbo]

I'm with mehead that there's much more wrong than just the lack of jamming. VDB, you keep making the comparison to the early '90s without conceding that the precision they play with today is no where near what it once was. I really have a tough time listening to some of the throwaway songs now (i.e., usually the first set and about half of the second) whereas I am still enthralled by a straightforward '92 Tweezer.
 
But the biggest problem for me these days is the inconsistency. I'm happy for whatapiper and others who see improved and (sometimes) extended jams as progress and a sign of good things to come. But I go the other way with it. I see this constant back and forth between hope and despair as rather disconcerting. It used to be that no matter how many shows I saw I was sure I'd walk out hearing something pretty awesome. Even during 2.0, I knew I may have to put up with some slop, but I always believed there was going to be a payoff at some point during the show. I can't say that anymore. So I have to hope that when I do get to see them once or twice a year it happens to be on one of the every 3rd or 4th or 5th nights when they're clicking. I just don't know that it's worth it for me anymore, and that's kinda sad to me.

[VDB]

I'm with mehead that there's much more wrong than just the lack of jamming. VDB, you keep making the comparison to the early '90s without conceding that the precision they play with today is no where near what it once was.

I can concede that; I'm not trying to say the two eras are exactly the same, just that maybe Phish themselves are trying to be more like the band they were in 1993 as opposed to 1997. We can't know for sure, of course... just a theory.

And, I'm also suggesting that the difference between good shows and pedestrian shows is amplified in the context of at-home listening, when you don't have the rest of the great things that exist about all Phish shows to buoy your concert-going experience. And, at the end of the day, I think it's more fair and immediately relevant to judge Phish shows as live events vs. just the recordings they leave behind.

[Gumbo72203]

Phish is a great thing right now.  However, to acknowledge mehead and phan, and maybe runawayjimbo, there are a couple things that are detracting and thus, DISTRACTING the band, I think, from reaching the greased-onion flow-state of star-eyed orgasms like 12/16/99. 

1) Trey's tone/guitar.  Every jam/solo, you hear him fight with his volume knob, and its REALLY annoying.  He NEVER has his volume right.  He's always fucking with it, and the swell noise ruins things.  His tone is piercing very often.  Its not the smooth Jedi juice of 97-00. 

2) the ripcord.  Granted, we don't have a Horse Force, but things like the end of Undermind at 8/28....  clearly, the band wanted to keep grooving, but Trey refused to let that happen.  Now, either he could simply be unwilling to let it happen, or oblivious to how in sync the rest of the band is.  I'm not really sure. 


BUT, when you have things like the Long Beach Ghost, you have to understand that Phish is still amazing.  Anybody who isn't talking or flipping out over that Ghost, simply has not listened to it.  and to levy a criticism of a thing without first fully experiencing the entirety of the thing, well... thats pretty weak.  How are you going to levy a judgment on something before you've gotten to know the whole thing?

Judging Phish, on this leg, by the basis of looking at setlists and song lengths, and then listening to the ONE thing most people talk about in a thread.... thats pretty lame.

Like, if i only paid attention to what people talked about in the 8/28 thread, I would have never discovered the cool shit happening in the Chalkdust -> Frankie Says -> Undermind sequence.  The seamless jamming INTO and OUT OF Frankie Says is probably the coolest segue that has happened all year.  And nobody gives a shit. 

Isn't that telling?

[sophist]

Ran through this yesterday.  First set is pretty lackluster in terms of how they rush through everything in the first set.  The second set is kind of boring to me.  Pretty weak version of C+P, the Mike's sammy sucks minus the Tweezer, which is the only thing worth revisiting in my opinion.  All, in all, I feel about the same post shows as I did upon relisten.  The only set from the weekend that improved to me upon relisten was set II of Atlanta.  It's not to say it is a good set to me, but it's better than I thought. 

[antelope19]

Ran through this yesterday.  First set is pretty lackluster in terms of how they rush through everything in the first set.  The second set is kind of boring to me.  Pretty weak version of C+P, the Mike's sammy sucks minus the Tweezer, which is the only thing worth revisiting in my opinion.  All, in all, I feel about the same post shows as I did upon relisten.  The only set from the weekend that improved to me upon relisten was set II of Atlanta.  It's not to say it is a good set to me, but it's better than I thought.

Agree with that 100%

As for me, I'm now getting around to re-listening to this.  I absolutely love the transition from CEP to Mcgrupp.  Not a best ever version of either song, but solid nonetheless.  This might be the best played Bowie I've personally seen in 3.0 and this Tweezer is just wonderful, IMO.  Also an instant-favorite 3.0 version of mine.  Fluffhead is always nice and this version is pretty damn funny with Fish taking the vocals.  The banter after fluff cracks me up too.     

I still don't know if they've ever played a tweezer in the mike's-paug sandwich.  Not that it really matters.

[gainesvillegreen]

Definitely enjoying this Tweezer more and more with each re-listen. At first I thought 8/22 had it sunk - the whale section in Charlotte is fairly dull, and Page is partly to blame, he just doesn't step up in that section - but I can hear now that 8/22 was Charlotte in utero. However, this is the first tour for me at least where I am able with a straight face to compare SEVERAL Tweezers from a tour enjoyably without there being one (or none) which standout head and shoulders above the rest (or they are all smegma). If you were going to make a mix CD or two of this second leg, I don't see how this Tweezer could be left off.

Didn't think the Bowie on tape was much to get excited about, good closer, but nothing else. McGrupp is fun too.

[gainesvillegreen]

Might just be me, but this Tweezer is what I keep going back and listening to (over and over) when I want to hear something from this past tour. I've whittled it down to manageable: Denver Undermind, Denver Caspian > Light, AC Heavy Things, AC 2001 > Reba, Cincy KDF > Twist, Worcester Boogie > If I Could, Long Beach Rock and Roll > Ghost, Alpine Fee and 46 Days, Noblesville McGrupp > Train (I'm missing something from somewhere in there...not from Denver or SPAC, not the Limb from leg II.).

At any rate, this Charlotte Tweezer ranks for me as a top 10 2009+ moment. Anyone else?

The drop back in after the whale is sublime, and it is so RARE to hear it these days. I wish I could see a close up vid for this song to know if they did a head nod/hand signal for the drop, or if they were all on the same page and didn't need that shit.

[VDB]

Gotta admit - I haven't listened to this Tweezer since the show. I sure liked it at the time. Really need to go back and give this whole show a spin.