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Where's the stage? Spurious Generalities => Sports Talk => Topic started by: sls.stormyrider on March 02, 2012, 08:35:23 PM

Title: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: sls.stormyrider on March 02, 2012, 08:35:23 PM
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2012/03/02/saints_violated_nfls_bounty_rule/?page=1

Quote
NFL: Saints violated 'Bounty Rule'
NEW YORK—New Orleans Saints players and at least one assistant coach maintained a bounty pool of up to $50,000 the last three seasons to reward game-ending injuries inflicted on opposing players, including Brett Favre and Kurt Warner, the NFL said Friday. "Knockouts" were worth $1,500 and "cart-offs" $1,000, with payments doubled or tripled for the playoffs.

The NFL said the pool amounts reached their height in 2009, the year the Saints won the Super Bowl.

The league said between 22 and 27 defensive players were involved in the program and that it was administered by defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, with the knowledge of coach Sean Payton.

Williams apologized for his role, saying: "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it."

No punishments have been handed out, but they could include suspension, fines and loss of draft picks. The NFL said the findings were corroborated by multiple, independent sources, during an investigation by the league's security department.

Players contributed cash to the pool, at times large amounts, and in some cases the money pledged was directed against a specific person, the NFL said.

"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for `performance,' but also for injuring opposing players," Commissioner Roger Goodell said in a statement. "The bounty rule promotes two key elements of NFL football: player safety and competitive integrity."

All payouts for specific performances in a game, including interceptions or causing fumbles, are against NFL rules. The NFL also warns teams against such practices before each season.

"It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated," Goodell said. "We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent. We have more work to do and we will do it."

Asked about potential criminal charges, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said:

"We believe that any violation of league rules should and will be handled by the commissioner."

"Cart-offs" are defined by the NFL as a player being carried off the field; "knockouts" as when a player cannot return to the game.

The league absolved Saints owner Tom Benson of any blame, but said the investigation showed Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis knew about the "pay for performance" program.

"Although head coach Sean Payton was not a direct participant in the funding or administration of the program, he was aware of the allegations, did not make any detailed inquiry or otherwise seek to learn the facts, and failed to stop the bounty program. He never instructed his assistant coaches or players that a bounty program was improper and could not continue," the NFL said.

When informed about it earlier this year, the NFL said Benson directed Loomis to "ensure that any bounty program be discontinued immediately." However, the NFL's report said evidence showed Loomis didn't carry out Benson's directions and that in 2010 Loomis denied any knowledge of a bounty program.

"There is no evidence that Mr. Loomis took any effective action to stop these practices," the NFL said.

Williams, hired as defensive coordinator by the Rams in January, is known for coaching aggressive defenses that try to intimidate opponents. He has said he won't punish players if they're flagged for late hits or unnecessary roughness, as long as the penalty resulted from aggression, not "stupidity."

"Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role," Williams said Friday. "I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again."

The NFL found no evidence of similar bounty programs within the league, but several Redskins told The Washington Post that Williams had a similar system as defensive coordinator for the team.

Former defensive end Philip Daniels, now Washington's director of player development, said he believed Williams paid off big hits with fines collected from players for being late to meetings or practices..

"Rather than pocket that money or whatever, he would redistribute it to players who had good games or good practices," said Daniels, who added the most he received was $1,500 for a four-sack game against Dallas in 2005.

"I think it is wrong the way they're trying to paint (Williams)," Daniels told the Post. "He never told us to go out there and break a guy's neck or break a guy's leg. It was all in the context of good, hard football."

Benson responded to the NFL's report saying: "I have been made aware of the NFL's findings relative to the `Bounty Rule' and how it relates to our club. I have offered and the NFL has received our full cooperation in their investigation. While the findings may be troubling, we look forward to putting this behind us and winning more championships in the future for our fans."

The NFL's most infamous bounty case occurred in 1989 when Eagles coach Buddy Ryan was accused of putting a bounty on Cowboys players.

On Thanksgiving Day, Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson accused Ryan of putting a bounty on Dallas quarterback Troy Aikman and placekicker Luis Zendejas before a 27-0 Philadelphia victory. Ryan and his players denied the charges and NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue found no evidence of wrongdoing.

The NFL began its Saints investigation in early 2010 after allegations surfaced that quarterbacks Warner of Arizona and Favre of Minnesota had been targeted. After interviewing several Saints who denied the bounty program existed and after the player who originally made the allegations recanted, the league couldn't prove anything.

However, Goodell said the NFL "recently received significant and credible new information and the investigation was re-opened during the latter part of the 2011 season."

Warner, who retired after the 2009 season, responded to a fan's comment on Twitter that even if the Saints had a bounty program a playoff hit on Warner was clean. Warner tweeted, "I would have to agree with you!!!"

"I don't want to say that there was an attempt to injure, but I definitely think there were games where I could tell you that it seemed that they went beyond what was normal in regard to when they were going to hit me or how they were going to hit me," Warner said on the NFL Network. "Again, not with the intention necessarily of hurting me, but knocking me out of my game to get me to think about things differently. If by chance they hit me and knocked me out of the game, maybe that's a benefit for them."

Favre's agent, Bus Cook, said he was unaware of the investigation until Friday. He said the Saints should have been penalized for several hard, late hits during the 2009 NFC championship game and that he believed the contact was not coincidental.

"It was pretty obvious that the intent was to take Brett out of the game, and it happened the week before with Kurt Warner, too," Cook said. "I don't know anything about whether it was by design or whatever, but I think a lot of people shared that same viewpoint that there were some hits that didn't get called."

Cook, however, said Favre never suggested to him he was maliciously targeted.

"That's part of football, getting hit," Cook said. "Brett never complained to me one way or another."

After the news broke Friday, tackle Joe Staley of the San Francisco 49er tweeted: "Just seeing all the reports about the Saints D. I knew there was something fishy about getting punched in the face during our playoff game"

The 49ers beat the Saints 36-32 in the NFC divisional playoffs.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: PIE-GUY on March 02, 2012, 10:21:18 PM
Not too shocked... One of those things I bet happens in not locker rooms. My boys got caught.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: mehead on March 02, 2012, 11:39:33 PM
Quote from: PIE-GUY on March 02, 2012, 10:21:18 PM
Not too shocked... One of those things I bet happens in not locker rooms. My boys got caught.

exactly
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: Undermind on March 03, 2012, 07:48:32 AM
Quote from: mehead on March 02, 2012, 11:39:33 PM
Quote from: PIE-GUY on March 02, 2012, 10:21:18 PM
Not too shocked... One of those things I bet happens in not locker rooms. My boys got caught.

exactly
Kind of like spygate, I agree.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: Superfreakie on March 03, 2012, 11:37:21 PM
Quote from: Undermind on March 03, 2012, 07:48:32 AM
Quote from: mehead on March 02, 2012, 11:39:33 PM
Quote from: PIE-GUY on March 02, 2012, 10:21:18 PM
Not too shocked... One of those things I bet happens in not locker rooms. My boys got caught.

exactly
Kind of like spygate, I agree.

exactly
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 04, 2012, 12:12:09 AM
I have friends that hate Belichick because he "cheated" etc..
Welcome to the the NFL. This shit happens.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: Superfreakie on March 04, 2012, 12:32:42 AM
Quote from: aphineday on March 04, 2012, 12:12:09 AM
I have friends that hate Belichick because he "cheated" etc..
Welcome to the the NFL. This shit happens.


signed, Steroids in the off season.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 04, 2012, 12:41:45 AM
(http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m04tpeRlkD1qznr6bo1_500.png)
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on March 04, 2012, 09:15:20 AM
If you listen to what the players have said about gregg williams' system, it seems more that the incentives were performance-based (e.g Philip Daniels receiving $1500 for totaling four sacks in a game when Williams was the 'skins DC) than for injuring another player out of the game. Just what I got from interviews with him, matt bowen, etc. (granted these were all guys who played under williams in washington, no mention of the saints' system)

and a monetary reward for players who perform well isn't "cheating" in my book. "Cheating" would have to be something like spying on another team to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: VDB on March 04, 2012, 10:04:33 AM
According to Matt Bowen interviews on Sportscenter, this kind of thing is pervasive in the NFL. Also, it's a little different than cheating in that it all takes place on the field and there are ostensibly rules against dirty plays. So if you lay out a flagrantly debilitating hit just to injure a guy, you may ostensibly get penalized for it right on the spot. If you don't, maybe that means the league doesn't think it's a dirty play anyway.

Still, that doesn't mean a bounty program for injuring other people isn't, in pure concept if nothing else, pretty f'ed up.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: sls.stormyrider on March 04, 2012, 06:30:25 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on March 04, 2012, 10:04:33 AM
According to Matt Bowen interviews on Sportscenter, this kind of thing is pervasive in the NFL. Also, it's a little different than cheating in that it all takes place on the field and there are ostensibly rules against dirty plays. So if you lay out a flagrantly debilitating hit just to injure a guy, you may ostensibly get penalized for it right on the spot. If you don't, maybe that means the league doesn't think it's a dirty play anyway.

Still, that doesn't mean a bounty program for injuring other people isn't, in pure concept if nothing else, pretty f'ed up.

or maybe the league (or the refs) missed it.
what's more f'd up is that a bunch of the guys I used to skate with said that even in HS they would try to put guys out. One of my partners has a kid playing HS baseball and their being taught about chin music.
anway,
I doubt NOLA is the only team that has this, just like I doubt the Pats were the only team taping things that shouldn't be taped, and I doubt Sosa, McGwire, Manny, and Clemons, and guys on "the list"  were the only ones who juiced.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: PIE-GUY on March 04, 2012, 06:35:47 PM
Quote from: slslbs on March 04, 2012, 06:30:25 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on March 04, 2012, 10:04:33 AM
According to Matt Bowen interviews on Sportscenter, this kind of thing is pervasive in the NFL. Also, it's a little different than cheating in that it all takes place on the field and there are ostensibly rules against dirty plays. So if you lay out a flagrantly debilitating hit just to injure a guy, you may ostensibly get penalized for it right on the spot. If you don't, maybe that means the league doesn't think it's a dirty play anyway.

Still, that doesn't mean a bounty program for injuring other people isn't, in pure concept if nothing else, pretty f'ed up.

or maybe the league (or the refs) missed it.
what's more f'd up is that a bunch of the guys I used to skate with said that even in HS they would try to put guys out. One of my partners has a kid playing HS baseball and their being taught about chin music.
anway,
I doubt NOLA is the only team that has this, just like I doubt the Pats were the only team taping things that shouldn't be taped, and I doubt Sosa, McGwire, Manny, and Clemons, and guys on "the list"  were the only ones who juiced.

Juicing is far more rampant in football than almost any other sport... perhaps pro-wrestling is worse, but that's not really sport.

Even at the college level they are juiced to the gills... especially line-men.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: sunrisevt on March 05, 2012, 08:17:28 AM
:checked this thread thinking it was about the LDS' "posthumous baptism" of prominent Jews:
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: antelope19 on March 05, 2012, 10:40:20 AM
The NFL and Roger Goodell are going to make an example out of this.  Apparently, Sean Payton and Gregg Williams were warned about this and they chose to ignore it.  Prepare for: hefty fines, multiple forfeited draft picks, Both Williams and Payton will be suspended for multiple games during the 2012 season.  IMO, this is going to be one of, if not the strongest penalty ever handed down by the NFL. 
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 05, 2012, 10:55:50 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 05, 2012, 10:40:20 AM
The NFL and Roger Goodell are going to make an example out of this.  Apparently, Sean Payton and Gregg Williams were warned about this and they chose to ignore it.  Prepare for: hefty fines, multiple forfeited draft picks, Both Williams and Payton will be suspended for multiple games during the 2012 season.  IMO, this is going to be one of, if not the strongest penalty ever handed down by the NFL. 
I agree, not with the punishment necessarily, but that it will happen. I could see an entire season suspension.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 09:55:09 AM
Based on what I'm reading today and saw last night, this punishment could be worse than I initially thought. The Saints are f'd.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: VDB on March 06, 2012, 12:14:12 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 09:55:09 AM
Based on what I'm reading today and saw last night, this punishment could be worse than I initially thought. The Saints are f'd.

And, if it's true, as some former players are saying, that this isn't such an unprecedented phenomenon after all, then I think too excessive a penalty will only verify that the real scandal here is a PR one, and the NFL will continue to look ham-handed and clueless by trying too hard to clean up the image of an inherently violent sport.

And now, Deadspin's (typically amusing and irreverent) take (http://deadspin.com/5890566/bountygate-gives-roger-goodell-another-chance-to-show-you-what-a-big-dick-he-has).
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on March 06, 2012, 12:29:53 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on March 06, 2012, 12:14:12 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 09:55:09 AM
Based on what I'm reading today and saw last night, this punishment could be worse than I initially thought. The Saints are f'd.

And, if it's true, as some former players are saying, that this isn't such an unprecedented phenomenon after all, then I think too excessive a penalty will only verify that the real scandal here is a PR one, and the NFL will continue to look ham-handed and clueless by trying too hard to clean up the image of an inherently violent sport.

And now, Deadspin's (typically amusing and irreverent) take (http://deadspin.com/5890566/bountygate-gives-roger-goodell-another-chance-to-show-you-what-a-big-dick-he-has).


spot on. here's (http://deadspin.com/5890582/the-nfl-will-happily-pretend-a-bounty-is-the-worst-scandal-ever) another good deadspin article about the situation. Point being: bounties aren't a competitive advantage, and every team has them. The players pay into the pools themselves for fuck's sake. I personally couldn't give less of a shit about the bounties, it's just a shame that roger goodell is once again going to stick his nose in this for no other reason than to make himself look tough
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 06, 2012, 12:43:54 PM
Quote from: phil on March 06, 2012, 12:29:53 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on March 06, 2012, 12:14:12 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 09:55:09 AM
Based on what I'm reading today and saw last night, this punishment could be worse than I initially thought. The Saints are f'd.

And, if it's true, as some former players are saying, that this isn't such an unprecedented phenomenon after all, then I think too excessive a penalty will only verify that the real scandal here is a PR one, and the NFL will continue to look ham-handed and clueless by trying too hard to clean up the image of an inherently violent sport.

And now, Deadspin's (typically amusing and irreverent) take (http://deadspin.com/5890566/bountygate-gives-roger-goodell-another-chance-to-show-you-what-a-big-dick-he-has).


spot on. here's (http://deadspin.com/5890582/the-nfl-will-happily-pretend-a-bounty-is-the-worst-scandal-ever) another good deadspin article about the situation. Point being: bounties aren't a competitive advantage, and every team has them. The players pay into the pools themselves for fuck's sake. I personally couldn't give less of a shit about the bounties, it's just a shame that roger goodell is once again going to stick his nose in this for no other reason than to make himself look tough
I very much agree with you, and I don't even hate bounties myself. On most teams "bounties" simply refer to biggest hit of the game, etc. In fact, many teams refer to them as "trophies". I've got no problems there at all. What I have a problem with is how Gregg Williams specifically offered bounties to his players for things like "cart-offs" or injuries they would produce. Fuck that. I have no hatred of the Saints at all, but this is bullshit. I always knew Williams was a snake, it's time to make an example of him.
I DO NOT feel the same about Payton, other than he probably should have stopped it.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: DoW on March 06, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
http://nflheadinjurylawsuits.com/
I think that pretty much sums it up.
does the NFL really have any choice in the matter?
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on March 06, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 06, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
http://nflheadinjurylawsuits.com/
I think that pretty much sums it up.
does the NFL really have any choice in the matter?

it sums up how insanely litigious our society is. I don't think a player winning a few grand for interceptions or sacks is or should be linked to concussions/head injuries (correlation is not causation)
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: DoW on March 06, 2012, 01:14:41 PM
Quote from: phil on March 06, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 06, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
http://nflheadinjurylawsuits.com/
I think that pretty much sums it up.
does the NFL really have any choice in the matter?

it sums up how insanely litigious our society is. I don't think a player winning a few grand for interceptions or sacks is or should be linked to concussions/head injuries (correlation is not causation)
do you really think this is about sacks and interceptions?  I don't want to be demeaning but that is naive.
take a look at what is happening in the nfl with hits on QBs. 
take a look at fines and how a safety basically can;t do anything anymore.
then take a look at how players are blaming their former teams and the league.

if you think all the saints were doing is giving incentives for sacks and interceptions, you must drink enough kool-aid to actually think trey is playing well in 3.0.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 06, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: phil on March 06, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 06, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
http://nflheadinjurylawsuits.com/
I think that pretty much sums it up.
does the NFL really have any choice in the matter?

it sums up how insanely litigious our society is. I don't think a player winning a few grand for interceptions or sacks is or should be linked to concussions/head injuries (correlation is not causation)
Also, it's been said by several players that the "bounties" were also offered for the much more severe things such as cart-offs, and targeting certain players to "knock out of competition".
The "bounties" increased in denomination in regards to the severity of the injury.
So yeah, in this case it is and should be linked to concussions/head injuries.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: VDB on March 06, 2012, 01:36:01 PM
Also, the language being used here only emphasizes that this is a PR issue. The word "bounty" -- which is being universally and breathlessly thrown around in virtually all coverage on the episode -- is weighted with shadowy and sinister connotations. The whole "bounty hunter" thing -- violent, amoral, below board. Simply using this word to describe the pool system makes it sound more egregious. Very Frank Lutz.

But they're performance bonuses, right? You can have a contract that pays you a bonus based on how many sacks you record, or tackles. They could be perfectly legal and yet potentially injury-inducing plays. And you'll set a goal for yourself because achieving that goal is in your career's, and bank account's, best interests.What's the difference? That the "bounties" are administered on a per-game basis and aren't codified into a contract? If you lay out an illegal hit just to score a bounty, you may get flagged, or ejected, or fined severely. So anyone who uses a bounty as motivation to break the rules of the game would be foolish. Illegal hits are illegal hits. Legal hits are legal hits.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: VDB on March 06, 2012, 01:44:06 PM
Quote from: aphineday on March 06, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: phil on March 06, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 06, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
http://nflheadinjurylawsuits.com/
I think that pretty much sums it up.
does the NFL really have any choice in the matter?

it sums up how insanely litigious our society is. I don't think a player winning a few grand for interceptions or sacks is or should be linked to concussions/head injuries (correlation is not causation)
Also, it's been said by several players that the "bounties" were also offered for the much more severe things such as cart-offs, and targeting certain players to "knock out of competition".
The "bounties" increased in denomination in regards to the severity of the injury.
So yeah, in this case it is and should be linked to concussions/head injuries.

Was writing my response above as these were posted, so I'll add and reiterate -- if the play is legal in the rules, it's legal. If there are legal hits that could severely injure someone or end their career (bounty-worthy hits), then take that up with the rulebook or the fundamental nature of the game itself. If bounty-worthy hits are also going to be so vicious as to be illegal, then there are already penalties for this, and you'd have to be stupid to put such a flagrant hit on someone that would win you a grand or two only to turn around and be fined 20k by the league.

I do believe this is much more about perceptions than injuries, because there are (ostensibly) already rules to address the injury side of things regardless of any bounty pools that may or may not be taking place.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: DoW on March 06, 2012, 01:54:24 PM
I'm just going to agree to disagree on this.  From my perspective, there should not be any team or coach supported program that increases the chances of an injury that could end up leading to league culpability.

My point of view has nothing to do with the saints or against Williams.  This has been going on in the league for years.  We are starting to see effects on former players after retirement and are seeing lawsuits filed against the league.  The league is reacting  to try and prevent both of those from happening.  I don't think the league wants to stop sacks or interceptions.  I think they want to stop hits that lead to players being carted off the field and want to stop teams and coaches from encouraging those hits with incentives, regardless of how petty they are.  It's more about the principle.

Just my opinion.  Take it or leave it.  The league never cared this much about it until a lot of recent developments showed long term effects on people's lives.  All sports have taken more precautions in regards to injuries, especially head injuries.  This is just an off the field precaution in my opinion.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 06, 2012, 02:25:19 PM
Right on bvaz.
I'll do the same in respect to the agree to disagree area.
Personally, I could give a shit if it's a "legal" hit.
If you try to break someone's neck on a "legal" hit, it's still trying to break someone's neck.
Any player or coach that could actually support willful injury has no place in the sport in my book.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: VDB on March 06, 2012, 02:54:03 PM
I guess what I'm trying to say is not that I think it's OK for coaches or players to encourage people to deliberately try to hurt others beyond a general "let's go out there make good, hard tackles today" -- I don't think that's cool, nor should the league tolerate it -- but rather that I think the issue is getting blown up beyond proportion in part because the NFL cares as much about how it is perceived as it does the safety of its players, and I worry that, given there are already ostensibly rules and disciplinary procedures in place to address on-field conduct, an excessively severe fallout here for the parties implicated would seem to be earned as much for their having shone an unflattering light on the league as for any actual recklessness or barbarity.

Now, as recently as last month, Goodell was talking about an 18-game season, saying "people want more football." Do you think two more regular-season games would likely result in fewer injuries, the same number, or more? Would some of those potentially be severe injuries? Do you think two more regular-season games would result in less revenue for the league, the same amount, or more?
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: DoW on March 06, 2012, 03:48:18 PM
it's an interesting opposing viewpoint.
for me, I don't buy into it, but I can see the direction your view heads in.
I just don't bye the analogies as being the same issue.
let's also keep in mind that it is still a league investigation.  who knows if anything will come of it?  I haven't read anything on this in the past 2 days and everything was very speculative before that.  if that has changed, I just haven't kept up with this.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on March 06, 2012, 04:54:54 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 06, 2012, 01:14:41 PM
Quote from: phil on March 06, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 06, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
http://nflheadinjurylawsuits.com/
I think that pretty much sums it up.
does the NFL really have any choice in the matter?

it sums up how insanely litigious our society is. I don't think a player winning a few grand for interceptions or sacks is or should be linked to concussions/head injuries (correlation is not causation)
do you really think this is about sacks and interceptions?  I don't want to be demeaning but that is naive.
take a look at what is happening in the nfl with hits on QBs. 
take a look at fines and how a safety basically can;t do anything anymore.
then take a look at how players are blaming their former teams and the league.

if you think all the saints were doing is giving incentives for sacks and interceptions, you must drink enough kool-aid to actually think trey is playing well in 3.0.

I don't think the saints were doing bounties for sacks and interceptions, but lots of teams do. Matt Bowen has said the Redskins system was something the players paid into as penalties for blown coverage in practice, showing up late to meetings, etc. Philip Daniels said he received as much as $1500 for a game in which he recorded four sacks. Simply because it's a bounty system doesn't mean the intent is malicious (although it certainly was in the Saints' case).
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: DoW on March 06, 2012, 05:20:01 PM
Quote from: phil on March 06, 2012, 04:54:54 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 06, 2012, 01:14:41 PM
Quote from: phil on March 06, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 06, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
http://nflheadinjurylawsuits.com/
I think that pretty much sums it up.
does the NFL really have any choice in the matter?

it sums up how insanely litigious our society is. I don't think a player winning a few grand for interceptions or sacks is or should be linked to concussions/head injuries (correlation is not causation)
do you really think this is about sacks and interceptions?  I don't want to be demeaning but that is naive.
take a look at what is happening in the nfl with hits on QBs. 
take a look at fines and how a safety basically can;t do anything anymore.
then take a look at how players are blaming their former teams and the league.

if you think all the saints were doing is giving incentives for sacks and interceptions, you must drink enough kool-aid to actually think trey is playing well in 3.0.

I don't think the saints were doing bounties for sacks and interceptions, but lots of teams do. Matt Bowen has said the Redskins system was something the players paid into as penalties for blown coverage in practice, showing up late to meetings, etc. Philip Daniels said he received as much as $1500 for a game in which he recorded four sacks. Simply because it's a bounty system doesn't mean the intent is malicious (although it certainly was in the Saints' case).
but you're changing the whole discussion then.
my point was geared towards malicious incentives.
I don't and I doubt the NFL cares about de mnimus (in comparison to salaries) bonuses for noteworthy performances.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 06:18:27 PM
Quote
One source close to Roger Goodell tells SI.com's Peter King that the commissioner's reaction to initial reports about the Saints' bounty program was, "God forbid this is true. This will be earth-shattering."
"This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make," said the high-placed source close to Goodell. "This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we're in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end." The Saints can't expect leniency. King believes Goodell will come down hardest on Rams DC Greg Williams, Saints coach Sean Payton, GM Mickey Loomis, and MLB Jonathan Vilma, "in that order." All four, and perhaps more Saints defensive players, should expect multi-game suspensions.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: VDB on March 06, 2012, 09:54:11 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 06:18:27 PM
Quote
One source close to Roger Goodell tells SI.com's Peter King that the commissioner's reaction to initial reports about the Saints' bounty program was, "God forbid this is true. This will be earth-shattering."
"This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make," said the high-placed source close to Goodell. "This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we're in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end." The Saints can't expect leniency. King believes Goodell will come down hardest on Rams DC Greg Williams, Saints coach Sean Payton, GM Mickey Loomis, and MLB Jonathan Vilma, "in that order." All four, and perhaps more Saints defensive players, should expect multi-game suspensions.

Can we say "self-fulfilling prophecy"?
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on March 07, 2012, 03:03:53 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 06:18:27 PM
Quote
One source close to Roger Goodell tells SI.com's Peter King that the commissioner's reaction to initial reports about the Saints' bounty program was, "God forbid this is true. This will be earth-shattering."
"This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make," said the high-placed source close to Goodell. "This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we're in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end." The Saints can't expect leniency. King believes Goodell will come down hardest on Rams DC Greg Williams, Saints coach Sean Payton, GM Mickey Loomis, and MLB Jonathan Vilma, "in that order." All four, and perhaps more Saints defensive players, should expect multi-game suspensions.

Am I missing something? How is Jonathan Vilma any more culpable than the any other defensive player?
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: GBL on March 08, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
Anyone who follows football knows the Saints have been the dirtiest, cheapest team over the last 3 years and I am extremely glad Goodell is going to bring the hammer down HARD
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: PIE-GUY on March 08, 2012, 01:11:19 PM
Quote from: GBL on March 08, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
Anyone who follows football knows the Saints have been the dirtiest, cheapest team over the last 3 years and I am extremely glad Goodell is going to bring the hammer down HARD

I don't know if I agree with this... I've seen some ugly defense out of Baltimore that puts the saints to shame.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on March 08, 2012, 02:06:53 PM
It's safe to say that, whether or not saints players received money for big hits/whatever, Roger Goodell has done more to ruin football than any bounty system ever could.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: GBL on March 08, 2012, 03:52:00 PM
Quote from: PIE-GUY on March 08, 2012, 01:11:19 PM
Quote from: GBL on March 08, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
Anyone who follows football knows the Saints have been the dirtiest, cheapest team over the last 3 years and I am extremely glad Goodell is going to bring the hammer down HARD

I don't know if I agree with this... I've seen some ugly defense out of Baltimore that puts the saints to shame.

09 and 10 in particular.. Which is why none of this is that shocking at all..
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: blatboom on March 08, 2012, 04:27:28 PM
Quote from: phil on March 07, 2012, 03:03:53 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 06:18:27 PM
Quote
One source close to Roger Goodell tells SI.com's Peter King that the commissioner's reaction to initial reports about the Saints' bounty program was, "God forbid this is true. This will be earth-shattering."
"This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make," said the high-placed source close to Goodell. "This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we're in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end." The Saints can't expect leniency. King believes Goodell will come down hardest on Rams DC Greg Williams, Saints coach Sean Payton, GM Mickey Loomis, and MLB Jonathan Vilma, "in that order." All four, and perhaps more Saints defensive players, should expect multi-game suspensions.

Am I missing something? How is Jonathan Vilma any more culpable than the any other defensive player?

he put up the 10 grand to take Favre out
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on March 08, 2012, 04:47:30 PM
Quote from: blatboom on March 08, 2012, 04:27:28 PM
Quote from: phil on March 07, 2012, 03:03:53 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 06, 2012, 06:18:27 PM
Quote
One source close to Roger Goodell tells SI.com's Peter King that the commissioner's reaction to initial reports about the Saints' bounty program was, "God forbid this is true. This will be earth-shattering."
"This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make," said the high-placed source close to Goodell. "This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we're in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end." The Saints can't expect leniency. King believes Goodell will come down hardest on Rams DC Greg Williams, Saints coach Sean Payton, GM Mickey Loomis, and MLB Jonathan Vilma, "in that order." All four, and perhaps more Saints defensive players, should expect multi-game suspensions.

Am I missing something? How is Jonathan Vilma any more culpable than the any other defensive player?

he put up the 10 grand to take Favre out

Ah yes, I can see how that would be particularly damning. Even in light of Anthony Hargrove claiming he received no money from the late hit on Favre in the '09 NFC Championship game (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7660902/ex-new-orleans-saints-anthony-hargrove-says-hit-brett-favre-not-bounty)
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: blatboom on March 08, 2012, 10:47:06 PM
Being a welcher does not absolve one from guilt. besides dude's probably lying
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: GBL on March 08, 2012, 11:36:24 PM
Quote from: blatboom on March 08, 2012, 10:47:06 PM
Being a welcher does not absolve one from guilt. besides dude's probably lying

Dude is totally lying, he was caught on audio..
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: antelope19 on March 21, 2012, 12:51:37 PM
Holy shit! Payton suspended for the season! Williams suspended indefinitely! They're docked draft picks too!
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: DoW on March 21, 2012, 12:54:22 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 21, 2012, 12:51:37 PM
Holy shit! Payton suspended for the season! Williams suspended indefinitely! They're docked draft picks too!
and they have to trade for tim tebow taboot.
eta:  I had no idea the Jets traded for Tebow when I posted that.
I can't find this story anywhere.  damn.  that is harsh.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: Bobafett on March 21, 2012, 01:06:41 PM
crazy fuckin NFL.  that some pretty harsh penalties.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 21, 2012, 01:18:46 PM
Holy shit. That's huge.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
Just heard about that. That's some bullshit. Belichick gets a slap on the wrist for cheating and Sean Payton gets suspended for a season? Seems to me the integrity of the game (a violent game at that) is much more sullied by a team that breaks the rules to get an unfair advantage than one who encourages hard hits.

I can't stand Goodell.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: VDB on March 21, 2012, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
Just heard about that. That's some bullshit. Belichick gets a slap on the wrist for cheating and Sean Payton gets suspended for a season? Seems to me the integrity of the game (a violent game at that) is much more sullied by a team that breaks the rules to get an unfair advantage than one who encourages hard hits.

This.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
I can't stand Goodell.

And that.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 21, 2012, 01:50:16 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on March 21, 2012, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
Just heard about that. That's some bullshit. Belichick gets a slap on the wrist for cheating and Sean Payton gets suspended for a season? Seems to me the integrity of the game (a violent game at that) is much more sullied by a team that breaks the rules to get an unfair advantage than one who encourages hard hits.

This.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
I can't stand Goodell.

And that.
None of this.
If you think some bullshit cameras on the sidelines, and authorizing hits designed to injure players are even the same ball park...
Williams suspension was warranted, Payton's seems a little harsh, but I Goodell did what he had to do.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: antelope19 on March 21, 2012, 01:53:28 PM
Agree 100% with aphineday
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: PIE-GUY on March 21, 2012, 03:05:23 PM
I get the fines and the draft picks... But a year for Peyton seems extreme to me. We will still see player suspensions and fines, too.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 03:12:57 PM
Quote from: aphineday on March 21, 2012, 01:50:16 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on March 21, 2012, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
Just heard about that. That's some bullshit. Belichick gets a slap on the wrist for cheating and Sean Payton gets suspended for a season? Seems to me the integrity of the game (a violent game at that) is much more sullied by a team that breaks the rules to get an unfair advantage than one who encourages hard hits.

This.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
I can't stand Goodell.

And that.
None of this.
If you think some bullshit cameras on the sidelines, and authorizing hits designed to injure players are even the same ball park...
Williams suspension was warranted, Payton's seems a little harsh, but I Goodell did what he had to do.

How do you distinguish between a clean hard hit and one "designed to injure players"? When a WR comes across the middle, isn't it the safety's job to hit him so hard he drops the ball and never wants to do that again? With the exception the fact that money changed hands, I fail to see the difference between what the Saints did and what happens in 15 other games on any given weekend. Maybe there'd be less outrage if they were just doing this for stickers they could put on their helmets.

Fuck it, let's just start playing flag football. That'll be fun to watch.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: rowjimmy on March 21, 2012, 03:19:59 PM
Williams just got Pete Rose'd.

He may as well get a job coaching at the local high school.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: aphineday on March 21, 2012, 03:32:07 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 03:12:57 PM
Quote from: aphineday on March 21, 2012, 01:50:16 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on March 21, 2012, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
Just heard about that. That's some bullshit. Belichick gets a slap on the wrist for cheating and Sean Payton gets suspended for a season? Seems to me the integrity of the game (a violent game at that) is much more sullied by a team that breaks the rules to get an unfair advantage than one who encourages hard hits.

This.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
I can't stand Goodell.

And that.
None of this.
If you think some bullshit cameras on the sidelines, and authorizing hits designed to injure players are even the same ball park...
Williams suspension was warranted, Payton's seems a little harsh, but I Goodell did what he had to do.

How do you distinguish between a clean hard hit and one "designed to injure players"? When a WR comes across the middle, isn't it the safety's job to hit him so hard he drops the ball and never wants to do that again? With the exception the fact that money changed hands, I fail to see the difference between what the Saints did and what happens in 15 other games on any given weekend. Maybe there'd be less outrage if they were just doing this for stickers they could put on their helmets.

Fuck it, let's just start playing flag football. That'll be fun to watch.
You discriminate by not having a bounty set up for "cart-offs", and injuries! I love clean, hard hits; I don't love injuring players intentionally.
RJ is correct though, Williams is donezo.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: VDB on March 21, 2012, 03:40:49 PM
I know we've already been down this road with clean vs. dirty hits, bounty vs. nature of the game, etc.; so I'll acknowledge that we don't all have the same opinion on this.

Having read the NFL's statement and its allegations, it's pretty clear that Williams knew he was up to no good and both Payton and Loomis didn't do all they could to put a stop to the program (and I think Payton, at least, willfully sought to stay enough on the outside to give himself a little plausible deniability). I think a full year's suspension for Payton is extreme* and this is the league saying the buck stops with the head coach (but then, Loomis is Payton's boss and he got a lesser sentence).

Mostly, I think it feels like the NFL is trying to make examples of the (ex)Saints in order to a) have a chilling effect on any similar programs wherever else they may exist, and b) send a PR message that the league is "safe" and that the safety of its players is its "highest priority." And with regards to this last part, I think the NFL is trying to overemphasize this message because they've had bad publicity with injured ex-players, concussions, etc., not to mention future exposure to lawsuits etc. And I think that hitting people with an excessive penalty even if partly to serve PR interests doesn't seem too fair.


* Hell, in baseball -- where steroid/PED use is arguably one of the biggest clouds that continues to loom over the sport -- you only sit out less than 2/3 of your season when popped for a second violation.


But hey, whatever. It's just a sport; it's entertainment. I like to argue and discuss these things but I don't sweat it too much at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 04:13:25 PM
Quote from: aphineday on March 21, 2012, 03:32:07 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 03:12:57 PM
Quote from: aphineday on March 21, 2012, 01:50:16 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on March 21, 2012, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
Just heard about that. That's some bullshit. Belichick gets a slap on the wrist for cheating and Sean Payton gets suspended for a season? Seems to me the integrity of the game (a violent game at that) is much more sullied by a team that breaks the rules to get an unfair advantage than one who encourages hard hits.

This.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
I can't stand Goodell.

And that.
None of this.
If you think some bullshit cameras on the sidelines, and authorizing hits designed to injure players are even the same ball park...
Williams suspension was warranted, Payton's seems a little harsh, but I Goodell did what he had to do.

How do you distinguish between a clean hard hit and one "designed to injure players"? When a WR comes across the middle, isn't it the safety's job to hit him so hard he drops the ball and never wants to do that again? With the exception the fact that money changed hands, I fail to see the difference between what the Saints did and what happens in 15 other games on any given weekend. Maybe there'd be less outrage if they were just doing this for stickers they could put on their helmets.

Fuck it, let's just start playing flag football. That'll be fun to watch.
You discriminate by not having a bounty set up for "cart-offs", and injuries! I love clean, hard hits; I don't love injuring players intentionally.
RJ is correct though, Williams is donezo.

So if there was no bounty, you'd be ok with it? I honestly don't know how to injure a player intentionally vs. injure someone accidentally.

To be clear, I agree with you that people should be punished. There was a rule in place and, like the Patriots, they willingly broke that rule and should suffer the consequences. But I just don't understand how this is so much worse (as measured by the penalties) than a team that cheats. Suspending the coach for a season goes way over the line of what should be considered reasonable IMO (and I fucking hate Sean Payton). But that's in keeping with Goodell's heavy-handed punishment that he gets off on doling out. Some of the fines last year were ridiculous and there was one hit (I think it was the James Harrison hit on McCoy that got him suspended) that was a joke.

Like VDB said, this was the league overreacting in the name of player safety. I also have doubts whether the punishment would have been this severe for one of the marquee franchises like the Pats or the Giants.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: antelope19 on March 21, 2012, 04:16:17 PM
You don't know how to injure someone intentionally? You were never an athlete, we're you, jimbo?
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: PIE-GUY on March 21, 2012, 04:17:17 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 21, 2012, 04:16:17 PM
You don't know how to injure someone intentionally? You were never an athlete, we're you, jimbo?

Just an athletic supporter.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: GBL on March 21, 2012, 04:36:44 PM
Imo, the reason there were such harsh penalties was because the league sent out memos EVERY year outlining that these type of bounty programs were not going to be tolerated, and the Saints blatantly ignored them.

Goodell obviously doesn't like people thwarting or ignoring rules and regulations..
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: runawayjimbo on March 21, 2012, 04:42:26 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on March 21, 2012, 04:16:17 PM
You don't know how to injure someone intentionally? You were never an athlete, we're you, jimbo?

What does that have to do with it? The point was making distinctions between intentional vs accidental hits is futile and subjective and thus unenforceable.

But to answer your question, yes, I was. A pretty good one.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on March 21, 2012, 06:08:21 PM
Roger Goodell hates football.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: Undermind on March 21, 2012, 06:24:49 PM
Wow.  I thought Payton may get a huge fine or a couple of games.  I'm surprised at the year penalty.
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: sls.stormyrider on March 23, 2012, 09:12:11 PM
QuoteSo if there was no bounty, you'd be ok with it? I honestly don't know how to injure a player intentionally vs. injure someone accidentally.

Knees
drilling someone with what you know is an illegal hit but will take the 15 yds as a fair trade for some $
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: blatboom on March 23, 2012, 09:38:31 PM
just because they were the only ones who got caught doesn't mean they aren't guilty.  it's so stupid anyway because the amount of money on the line equates to peanuts, but I love seeing idiocy punished harshly
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: antelope19 on May 02, 2012, 12:18:23 PM
Vilma suspended for the season!
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: PIE-GUY on May 02, 2012, 12:21:51 PM
Quote from: antelope19 on May 02, 2012, 12:18:23 PM
Vilma suspended for the season!

FAAAAAAAAACK!!!!!!!!!'
Title: Re: Saints violated bounty rule
Post by: phil on May 03, 2012, 08:36:34 AM
(http://1.media.sportspickle.cvcdn.com/26/69/6ea8d20d9ea44872ca3ee2d731d2817f.jpg)