Here is an article written by a woman at B&W Speakers. Covers the history of digital sound in a compact and legible way with a time line at the end. Figured this might help solve all those "what is 24 bit?" questions. A nice little read when you have nothing to do at work.
http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/lab/sound-quality-lab/the-definitive-guide-to-24-bit-flac/ (http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/lab/sound-quality-lab/the-definitive-guide-to-24-bit-flac/)
QuoteHigh resolution downloads are changing the way we enjoy music, opening up possibilities undreamed of back in digital's early days...
It's hard to understate the impact that Compact Disc made, upon its introduction back in 1982. At the time, the music world was very different, with vinyl regarded as the only serious way to play music. Found everywhere from broadcast studios to the local youth club, LPs were the world's favourite music format. Still, at over thirty years old, black plastic was knocking on and sales were on the wane, down 40% from its 1975 high watermark. The scene was set for the brave new world of digital audio...
What music lovers needed now was a small, convenient, high quality music carrier, and CD was it. Hailed as a miracle of modernity, it fused two technologies – a digital audio coding system developed by Sony, and a laser optical disc storage system developed by Philips.
Legend has it that Sony had wanted the new 'Digital Audio Disc' to be 12 inches wide, just like an LP, as they were worried that album artwork wouldn't look good on Philips' proposed 5″ disc. Philips had wanted cardboard sleeves, just like LPs, but Sony insisted on a plastic 'jewel case' to give the product a more tangible feel. So when CD finally emerged, it was full of compromises limited by the technology and what the big companies thought the public wanted.
Given that the average early eighties turntable could scarcely spin at the right speed, the new digital disc was a revelation. Sonically CD was was streets ahead of most people's vinyl experience – and had the added benefit of being immune from surface noise, static crackle and disc wear too. There were some golden eared hi-fi hacks around who didn't like its sound, describing it as a little stark and two dimensional. But by and large, CD was a quantum leap forward...
Despite Philips' famous description of it as giving "pure, perfect sound forever", people soon started noticing problems however. Compared to analogue, early 16-bit digital could sound spiky and hard, giving cymbals and female vocals a coldness that just didn't seem right. Lab measurements showed that whilst CD's 16-bit digital system gave very low distortion on the loudest parts of the music, it distorted heavily on the quieter bits – the exact opposite to how analogue LP behaved. Worse still, the digital system was prone to distorting most in the upper midband and treble, just where the ear is most sensitive...
This was down to the way digital audio encodes the analogue musical waveform, and it applies to every format that uses the Pulse Code Modulation digital system, such as CD, MP3, AAC and FLAC. With PCM, the two basic factors that determine the sound quality are bit depth (which determines the quality with which the analogue signal is digitised), and the sampling frequency (which is the number of times per second that the analogue signal is digitised). CD is a 16bit, 44.1kHz system, giving a frequency response of 5-22,000Hz and 96dB dynamic range.
To understand this more clearly, it's helpful to imagine taking a digital photo of a squiggly line. The more megapixels the camera that you use has, the higher resolution the snapshot will be and the smoother the squiggle will look. This is the visual equivalent of bit depth. Then try and imagine photographing that squiggle thousands of times a second.
The more snapshots you take per second, the more accurately you can track the way the line moves, kind of like seeing a flicker-free TV picture on a top television. Liken this to the sampling frequency, and you can see how the musical waveform (squiggly line) is captured digitally.
So the more bits you use, the more natural the music sounds, and the faster the samples, the wider the frequency range. CD's 16/44.1 digital system was state of the art in 1982, but it didn't take long for it to get past its sell-by date.
Malcolm Hawksford, Professor of Psychoacoustics at Essex University, reckons that, "CD's digital specification was almost good enough for audiophile music reproduction. It was near the limit, but in my view probably a bit marginal. Ideally, at least 20-bit resolution at 60 kHz sampling frequency would have been better".
Compact Disc became a technological time trap for audiophiles. Its almost-good-enough digital specification put the development of digital in suspended animation, locking us in to an outdated nineteen eighties way of digitising music. No surprise then that in recent years, many hi-fi purists have been turning back to vinyl which – being analogue – offers almost infinite levels of resolution. "Analogue audio systems are limited not by digital bits, but atoms," argues Hi-Fi World magazine's Paul Rigby. "Where LP record playback fails is in the mechanical tolerances of the playback equipment, such as bearing friction and so on, rather than the resolution of the format itself. With digital though, it can only be so good and no better.
Happily, DVD-Audio and Super Audio Compact Disc (SACD) arrived at the end of the nineties to save the day, offering far superior sound to CD. With the former offering true 24bit resolution, it came over as punchy and powerful with tremendous detail, plus a wonderfully smooth low distortion sound right across the audio band.
"I have seen some really good recordings over the last decade where 16-bit was just not enough to hold all the information," says B&W digital research engineer Albert Yong., "and given the opportunity to then listen to those recordings in 24-bits, they just blew the 16bit version out of the water".
Although 24-bit DVD-A sounded superb, it never got off the ground commercially. It was expensive, you needed a special type of DVD player and most importantly of all, retailers simply didn't want to sell it. With DVD video discs making the stores a mint (at the time), there was no reason to devote shelf space to less commercial audiophile music releases. DVD-Audo's life was over just a couple of years after its inception, and no one missed it except a select bunch of audiophiles who'd heard 24-bit digital and couldn't go back. But, whilst the disc went the way of the Dodo, its coding system would live on...
Just as DVD-A's sun was setting, so digital file downloads began making great inroads into the music marketplace. The MP3 format was no great shakes sonically but it was only the first wave; it might have sounded bad, but it ushered in a new way of obtaining music that no longer had any limits. Whereas CD was frozen in time and space, committed to its dated 16-bit, 44.1kHz flavour, internet distributed music could arrive in a way that suits the artist, label and listener.
Enter Free Lossless Audio Codec in 2001 – which was an altogether more intelligent way of encoding music. Rather than the compressed system that MP3 used which reduces file sizes by about 80% by cutting out most of the music you can't hear (and some that you can), FLAC used a clever 'lossless' packing system that doesn't remove any music at all, and saves about 30% to 50% of space. "It's a problem-free system," says Professor Hawksford, "if the arithmetic is performed correctly and the compressed files are not corrupted then there are no errors in the reconstructed output."
Whilst we've seen a number of lossless systems, from Apple Lossless (ALAC) to Windows Media Audio Lossless (WMA Lossless), the Free Lossless Audio Codec (FLAC) has emerged triumphant for music-loving hi-fi buffs. The spirtual successor to MP3, it's an open-source system that's not tied to any one manufacturer, which explains it success. Better still, it comes in more than one resolution. Whilst you can encode your CDs to FLAC keeping their 16-bit, 44.1kHz resolution, FLAC can also come in 24-bit form too. "The system is so flexible that it can take anything from 4 to 32 bits and sample rates up to 655350Hz in 1 Hz steps – it can certainly replace 24/96 DVD-Audio", says Albert Yong.
BETTER THAN CD
Compared to the mastertape, CD gives a decent but unsophisticated facsimile. Its 16/44.1 specification boasts a dynamic range of around 96dB, which is ample for most music work. The trouble is though, the quieter the signal is, the more the system distorts using the PCM digital system, which effectively sucks out the atmosphere – all the subtle ambient details – of a piece of music. In a direct A-B comparison with the mastertape, "16-bit sounds slightly vague," says Paul Rigby, "like a primitive digital camera it simply loses the subtlety and fine detail; it's less easy to live with than hi res digital".
By comparison, Portico Quartet's 'November' via 24bit FLAC showcases the superior dynamics of the hi res file. A supremely atmospheric track, permeated with gently ringing kettle drums right through, it's a far more engaging and arresting experience. "Most people tend to think wider dynamic range simply means a louder, punchier sound", says Paul Rigby, "but in a sense it's closer to the reverse. Basically, it means all those quiet subtle sounds are far better resolved; there's a far greater sense of space and atmosphere, and the contrast between a gentle tap of cymbal and a smash of a snare drum is more faithfully rendered. The music just sounds more organic, and less like hi-fi".
Theoretically, 24-bit digital has a resolution of 144dB, which is more than enough (130dB is the threshold of pain for the human ear), but the problem is, as Professor Hawksford notes, of actually finding studios capable of recording at anywhere near this resolution. "Not many recordings fully exploit the capabilities of CD, let alone higher resolution formats", he notes...
Bowers &Wilkin's Albert Yong agrees that we're a good way away from achieving true 24-bit masters, but still we can do much better than old fashioned 16-bit, and people can easily hear the difference.
"We have seen some extremely good recordings lately, when the entire recording chain is done right. We can potentially get up to around 20 to 22 bits at the moment, and they do sound a lot better. The difference is in the detail. Sounds generally are more open, and there is an extra level to airyness to the music. Voice and instruments sounds closer to live, and more dynamic as well".
Once you've got your 24-bit FLAC files and FLAC player; now it's time to get the music out to your ears. There are several ways of doing this:
* The simplest is to take an analogue line output from your computer soundcard. This is likely to have a 3.5mm mini-jack plug; we recommend a high quality bespoke cable such as Chord's iChord for around £30. Although it will give a decent sound, particularly if you have a good quality soundcard, it is not ideal because computers are electrically 'noisy' environments, and it is best if at all possible to pipe out the digital signal away from the PC or Mac.
* A good external soundcard like M-Audio's Transit will always be a better sounding solution. This is a full 24/96 capable card, powered by USB. This provides a high quality S/PDIF optical digital output. It has an electrical coaxial digital output too, but it is always preferable to use the optical to eliminate computer-borne electrical noise. Run a good quality optical lead into a modern DAC such as a Cambridge Audio DAC Magic and you have a proper, high quality 24-bit FLAC playout system, that will give superior sound to almost any CD player. It's important to note here that Windows users should download the latest ASIO drivers; these provide a 'source direct' function, ensuring the digital datastream goes direct from the FLAC software player to the USB digital output. Some of the latest DACs, like the Cambridge DAC Magic, also have USB inputs that can be driven directly from computers, but it's always preferable to isolate the electrically noisy computer from the hi-fi by using an optical digital link.
* Wireless streaming is the third, and for many the preferred option. Logitech's Squeezebox Touch ,£259, is one of the most inexpensive and convenient ways of getting full 24-bit FLAC replay at up to 96kHz sampling rate. It comes with bespoke playback software that lets your computer control it via your home wireless network, giving an iTunes-style user interface. Generally, these work very well and are an excellent way of giving multiform functionality. Although it has built-in line level analogue outputs which are ideal for use in a second system, again audiophiles should use its digital output into a hi-fi DAC, such as the aforementioned Cambridge Audio DAC Magic.
There's an old maxim in the hi-fi industry, borrowed from the early days of the computer pioneers – "garbage in, garbage out". Any speaker can only be as good as the system driving it, and any system is limited by the quality of the original source material. That's why B&W, as a manufacturer of premium, leading edge loudspeakers, takes FLAC very seriously. In 24-bit form it's the modern day incarnation of digital's finest hour, DVD-Audio, but even better because it's almost inflnitely upgradeable and future-proof. Professior Hawksford gives it the nod. "FLAC has a place in the future for high quality audio. It is good for transporting files on the Internet as it typically halves download time. It is unlikely that for lossless compression there will be significant improvements", Hawksford believes.
The ease with which it can be delivered to a computer means that anyone who's capable of sending their friend a digital photo can now download and play high resolution FLAC files, and the benefits are clear for all to hear.
"FLAC is as good as it can get for now. I think what it brings is not limited to quality of audio, but the added convenience as well", says B&W's Albert Yong. The only drawback is the sheer scarcity of quality recorded music in 24-bit FLAC format, and that's where B&W's Society of Sound comes in.
Meticulous attention to detail across the whole recording process with the latest high resolution digital recording systems, makes for music of unalloyed purity. That's why we're so keen for you to experience 24-bit for yourself; once you've got the habit you'll never look back.
Download Portico Quartet's 'November' as a 24-bit FLAC file and hear the difference.
DIGITAL TIMELINE
1841 Augustin-Louis Cauchy first proposed sampling theory.
1928 Harry Nyquist presents sampling theory to the American Institute of Electrical Engineers
1937 Reeves proposed pulse code wave modulation (PCM) as a way of storing audio1948 John Bardeen, William Shockley and Walter Brattain's bipolar junction transistor, which made compact digital circuitry a reality.1958 C.H. Townes and A.L. Shawlow invented the laser.
1960 I.S. Reed and G. Solomon's work on error correction codes gave us the technology that would be directly applied to Compact Disc twenty two years later
1967 Japan's NHK Technical Research Institute publicly demonstrates a digital audio recorder running 12bit resolution and a 30kHz sampling rate.
1969 Physicist Klaas Compaan uses a glass disc to store black and white holographic images using frequency modulation at Philips Laboratories.
1977 Sony, Mitsubishi and Hitachi demonstrate digital audio discs
1980 Sony signs up to Philips 'Red Book' laser disc; Compact Disc is born.
1982 Sony and Philips launch first commercial CD players.
1987 Sony launches Digital Audio Tape (DAT) with 16bit, 48kHz digital PCM system.
1994 MP3 (MPEG 1 Audio Layer 3) finalised. A compressed, lossy 16/44.1 format using approximately 20% of the space of a WAV file, it ushers in online music distribution.
1999 Super Audio Compact Disc (SACD) launched, offering high resolution digital sound using the Direct Stream Digital (DSD) system, with effective 20-bit resolution.
2000 DVD-Audio is launched from the DVD-Forum; offering up to 24bit, 96kHz resolution from a DVD.
2001 Josh Coulson finalises Free Lossless Audio Codec (FLAC) v1.0.
It's hard to understate the impact of the CD?
Nobody will ever buy CDs.
That was indeed difficult.
Quote from: Superfreakie on June 25, 2010, 04:50:18 PM
Here is an article written by a woman at B&W Speakers.
Thanks for the link - still have to read it through, but I'll note that nowhere on that timeline is DCC. My dad was an engineer for Philips, and I remember him mentioning this great new product - like DAT, only cheaper.
Calling that thing's miserable failure before its launch is probably my only correct prediction ever re: music storage. :-D
Anyway . . . it's good to get the story from an impartial source. In my home, the version went something like "Philips was responsible for all the innnovation behind the CD and Sony was mostly along for the ride." :-D
This makes me wonder how much livephish audio can take advantage of 24-bit. Is there a bottleneck at the recording stage? This article makes you think that you're getting something closer to 20-22 bit audio (still a noticeable improvement)...
Well...since Phish is using a digital board now, I don't think there's any sort of bottleneck in the recording chain....
Let's hope the noobs read too. Great article.
Quote from: jephrey on June 27, 2010, 12:54:36 AM
Let's hope the noobs read too. Great article.
Yeah, I sort of wanted to put it up as it might save some future explanations, in that we could direct people to this thread should they have 24 bit vs 16 bit etc.... questions. That being said, I figure most of us are already quite adept when it comes to our listening and collecting.
Quote from: Hicks on June 25, 2010, 05:38:54 PM
It's hard to understate the impact of the CD?
Nobody will ever buy CDs.
That was indeed difficult.
And yet 99.9% of all DLs on BT.ETREE are 16/44...
Terry
Not only are they 16/44.1, they were probably downsampled from the original digital source... Booooo. I guess that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Back when filesize was important (slow downloads and expensive storage), "MAYBE" it made sense.
Is there an article or some great text that can be shown to mp3 collectors? I've tried to get everyone I know to move to lossless. I don't have a terribly hard time explaining it, but I wish there was an easier way to make someone care. It seems like they don't even care if their collection will be irrelevant in a few years. It took me a while to give up tapes I suppose, so I try to let people know what a hassle it is to find all those tapes in a lossless format when the time came. Just do it now.
I try to tell my friends about the advantages of lossless to lossy but they either just don't understand or they don't care. They are content with their mp3s and who am I to tell them they are wrong if that is what they like.
I just know with the right FLACS and the right sound system I could change their ways forever. But then I would just end up downloading everything for them because I hate explaining BT to people
I hear ya. Same problem here. I also try to explain "full albums" but everyone just wants the one song they hear on the radio.
tyvm will read l8r,k bai
Quote from: twatts on June 27, 2010, 02:07:25 AM
Quote from: Hicks on June 25, 2010, 05:38:54 PM
It's hard to understate the impact of the CD?
Nobody will ever buy CDs.
That was indeed difficult.
And yet 99.9% of all DLs on BT.ETREE are 16/44...
Terry
as much as I agree, etree is there for the community. just look at the number of completes on sources when both are seeded. 16 bit must be 4:1 (estimating). so sharing what the people "want" makes sense.
we should start a 24 bit only tracker.
I don't want to have to do any work though.
Quote from: bvaz on July 01, 2010, 07:01:14 AM
Quote from: twatts on June 27, 2010, 02:07:25 AM
Quote from: Hicks on June 25, 2010, 05:38:54 PM
It's hard to understate the impact of the CD?
Nobody will ever buy CDs.
That was indeed difficult.
And yet 99.9% of all DLs on BT.ETREE are 16/44...
Terry
as much as I agree, etree is there for the community. just look at the number of completes on sources when both are seeded. 16 bit must be 4:1 (estimating). so sharing what the people "want" makes sense.
we should start a 24 bit only tracker.
I don't want to have to do any work though.
perhaps etree could implement a pull-down or an option to filter by bit.
But yeah, the community at large has a few steps to go before 24 bit is more than a niche market. And in the bigger scheme of things, Lossless audio is a niche market anyway, so losslesser audio is a niche of a niche.
Quote from: kellerb on July 01, 2010, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: bvaz on July 01, 2010, 07:01:14 AM
Quote from: twatts on June 27, 2010, 02:07:25 AM
Quote from: Hicks on June 25, 2010, 05:38:54 PM
It's hard to understate the impact of the CD?
Nobody will ever buy CDs.
That was indeed difficult.
And yet 99.9% of all DLs on BT.ETREE are 16/44...
Terry
as much as I agree, etree is there for the community. just look at the number of completes on sources when both are seeded. 16 bit must be 4:1 (estimating). so sharing what the people "want" makes sense.
we should start a 24 bit only tracker.
I don't want to have to do any work though.
perhaps etree could implement a pull-down or an option to filter by bit.
But yeah, the community at large has a few steps to go before 24 bit is more than a niche market. And in the bigger scheme of things, Lossless audio is a niche market anyway, so losslesser audio is a niche of a niche.
Niches are nice. With a good sound system, that is.
I pull down MP3s for a quick taste and if I like it, I'll go for lossless.
Quote from: mopper_smurf on July 01, 2010, 10:20:12 AM
Niches are nice. With a good sound system, that is.
I pull down MP3s for a quick taste and if I like it, I'll go for lossless.
That's the other trick - if more systems/soundcards/pmps/etc played 24-bit audio out of the box, more people would get the chance to hear [some of] the improvement without investing in a better-than-normal system.
I can't really hear the difference. But prolly because i don't have that good of a playback system
Quote from: Multibeast12 on July 01, 2010, 05:27:21 PM
I can't really hear the difference. But prolly because i don't have that good of a playback system
I wouldn't worry about that, most people can't hear the difference. But as you have correctly pointed out, this is more often than not directly attributable to a lower quality playback system. But also keep in mind that listening to music is a learned process as well. You do get better at it. I listen much better now than I did 20 years ago.
yeah im an audiophile with some nice headphones, and a okay amp. also the DAC on my motherboard is so-so (i am building a new amp and DAC) so i can ususally tell the difference, but sometimes i cant it really depends on the tune/copy etc.
but once i have this new setup (even building the cables and powersupplies :crazy: ) i should be able to hear things i was missing all along ... if not i just wasted all that money :frustrated:
Quote from: whyweigh4.5 on June 27, 2010, 09:52:48 AM
I try to tell my friends about the advantages of lossless to lossy but they either just don't understand or they don't care. They are content with their mp3s and who am I to tell them they are wrong if that is what they like.
I just know with the right FLACS and the right sound system I could change their ways forever. But then I would just end up downloading everything for them because I hate explaining BT to people
i hate trying to explain that, i popped open my ipod like a half year ago and bypassed the internal amplifier, so then i had to create a special cable that comes out of the dock and turns into a 3.5mm mini headphone plug, i also rockboxed it so i could play flacs/shns and i strapped a small portable amp to my ipod so its all together in one brick, one day i tried to explain to this one kid why i did it and what it was. he just goes... "thats stupid, mp3s are better"
oh well, i guess ignorance... means your missing out on all sorts of things you didnt hear before :-D
also the most truthful thread i have ever seen (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/451369/why-flac-is-better) (tee hee)
speaking of said DAC, here is mine so far -> Gamma 2 DAC (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/108826/ppa-v2-construction-discussion/855#post_6747836)
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 01, 2010, 11:45:31 PM
speaking of said DAC, here is mine so far -> Gamma 2 DAC (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/108826/ppa-v2-construction-discussion/855#post_6747836)
cool little jobby.
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 01:16:40 AM
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 01, 2010, 11:45:31 PM
speaking of said DAC, here is mine so far -> Gamma 2 DAC (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/108826/ppa-v2-construction-discussion/855#post_6747836)
cool little jobby.
:) thanks man, if you want that or a amp built i can help you out there :-D
i think im gonna try to start a mini business, building custom amps and DACs, and i want to take some electrical engineering courses in college next year so maybe i can write my own schematics and such. that could be pretty cool
bvaz, yeah, 24bit tracker, no work. I'm for that too, let's do it :clap:
Actually, that would be the coolest. :smoke:
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 02, 2010, 01:30:08 AM
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 01:16:40 AM
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 01, 2010, 11:45:31 PM
speaking of said DAC, here is mine so far -> Gamma 2 DAC (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/108826/ppa-v2-construction-discussion/855#post_6747836)
cool little jobby.
:) thanks man, if you want that or a amp built i can help you out there :-D
i think im gonna try to start a mini business, building custom amps and DACs, and i want to take some electrical engineering courses in college next year so maybe i can write my own schematics and such. that could be pretty cool
That's fantastic. I presently have a pretty nice set up. I run Mission Pilastro speakers, pushed with dual custom tubes (speakers can be tri-wired but the costs then get a little outrageous) which themselves are pushed by custom dual tube pre-amps that then run into a multiple of output sources depending on my listening choice for the evening. Check this out. Beautiful gear but the guy also has a bunch of great articles you can read for free that are very well written for those who suffer from our addiction to nice sound. Marmar, here at the 'paug, also has a ridiculous set up.:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html (http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html)
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 01:47:50 AM
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 02, 2010, 01:30:08 AM
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 01:16:40 AM
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 01, 2010, 11:45:31 PM
speaking of said DAC, here is mine so far -> Gamma 2 DAC (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/108826/ppa-v2-construction-discussion/855#post_6747836)
cool little jobby.
:) thanks man, if you want that or a amp built i can help you out there :-D
i think im gonna try to start a mini business, building custom amps and DACs, and i want to take some electrical engineering courses in college next year so maybe i can write my own schematics and such. that could be pretty cool
That's fantastic. I presently have a pretty nice set up. I run Mission Pilastro speakers, pushed with dual custom tubes (speakers can be tri-wired but the costs then get a little outrageous) which themselves are pushed by custom dual tube pre-amps that then run into a multiple of output sources depending on my listening choice for the evening. Check this out. Beautiful gear but the guy also has a bunch of great articles you can read for free that are very well written for those who suffer from our addiction to nice sound. Marmar, here at the 'paug, also has a ridiculous set up.:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html (http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html)
oh im very aware of marmar's setup (hes used to be on the shnfam, he disappeared though)
but yeah that sounds like a really nice setup, i was talking headphones though :D, im too poor to get into the speaker audiophile world. check out my new post though, if you want some quality cable i am willing to build it for you :D (forget 250 for 5 feet of cable)
http://week4paug.net/for-sale!/ic-custom-built-ampsdacs/ (http://week4paug.net/for-sale)
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 02, 2010, 02:23:03 AM
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 01:47:50 AM
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 02, 2010, 01:30:08 AM
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 01:16:40 AM
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 01, 2010, 11:45:31 PM
speaking of said DAC, here is mine so far -> Gamma 2 DAC (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/108826/ppa-v2-construction-discussion/855#post_6747836)
cool little jobby.
:) thanks man, if you want that or a amp built i can help you out there :-D
i think im gonna try to start a mini business, building custom amps and DACs, and i want to take some electrical engineering courses in college next year so maybe i can write my own schematics and such. that could be pretty cool
That's fantastic. I presently have a pretty nice set up. I run Mission Pilastro speakers, pushed with dual custom tubes (speakers can be tri-wired but the costs then get a little outrageous) which themselves are pushed by custom dual tube pre-amps that then run into a multiple of output sources depending on my listening choice for the evening. Check this out. Beautiful gear but the guy also has a bunch of great articles you can read for free that are very well written for those who suffer from our addiction to nice sound. Marmar, here at the 'paug, also has a ridiculous set up.:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html (http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html)
oh im very aware of marmar's setup (hes used to be on the shnfam, he disappeared though)
but yeah that sounds like a really nice setup, i was talking headphones though :D, im too poor to get into the speaker audiophile world. check out my new post though, if you want some quality cable i am willing to build it for you :D (forget 250 for 5 feet of cable)
http://week4paug.net/for-sale!/ic-custom-built-ampsdacs/ (http://week4paug.net/for-sale)
Unfortunately, I don't listen to music with headphones unless I am working on tapes, but that stuff I do at a friend's mini-studio. However, thanks for the offer, you never know.
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 02:31:18 AM
Unfortunately, I don't listen to music with headphones unless I am working on tapes, but that stuff I do at a friend's mini-studio. However, thanks for the offer, you never know.
oh bummer, and i totally forgot about decware, *adding to the list of things ill build* :-D
its no problem, if you go to amb.org and look at the beta 22 that can be a stereo amp. and the DAC can work on any stereo.... NOT FORCING YOU TO POSSIBLY WANT MORE THINGS... NEVER! :-D
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 02, 2010, 02:38:17 AM
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 02:31:18 AM
Unfortunately, I don't listen to music with headphones unless I am working on tapes, but that stuff I do at a friend's mini-studio. However, thanks for the offer, you never know.
oh bummer, and i totally forgot about decware, *adding to the list of things ill build* :-D
its no problem, if you go to amb.org and look at the beta 22 that can be a stereo amp. and the DAC can work on any stereo.... NOT FORCING YOU TO POSSIBLY WANT MORE THINGS... NEVER! :-D
if I spend anymore money on sound my girlfriend will have me committed. It's bad enough that I have to let her play her music through my system every now and again. :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard
you wanna hear the difference between 16bit and 24?....listen to some classical in 24 vs 16 and then tell me you cant hear a difference....
it's all in the details of the quiet passages.....and the dynamics of the louder ones....
Quote from: Marmar on July 02, 2010, 07:23:41 AM
you wanna hear the difference between 16bit and 24?....listen to some classical in 24 vs 16 and then tell me you cant hear a difference....
it's all in the details of the quiet passages.....and the dynamics of the louder ones....
i can ususally tell on studio, and i dont have very much classical, i need to get on that, get those 24bit 192kHz vinyl rips (unless i have to settle for 24/96 UGH the horror) :-D
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 03:24:45 AM
Quote from: phishhead92 on July 02, 2010, 02:38:17 AM
Quote from: Superfreakie on July 02, 2010, 02:31:18 AM
Unfortunately, I don't listen to music with headphones unless I am working on tapes, but that stuff I do at a friend's mini-studio. However, thanks for the offer, you never know.
oh bummer, and i totally forgot about decware, *adding to the list of things ill build* :-D
its no problem, if you go to amb.org and look at the beta 22 that can be a stereo amp. and the DAC can work on any stereo.... NOT FORCING YOU TO POSSIBLY WANT MORE THINGS... NEVER! :-D
if I spend anymore money on sound my girlfriend will have me committed. It's bad enough that I have to let her play her music through my system every now and again. :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard
luckily i dont have anyone i
have to share my rig with so im all good on that, my dad lets me use his rig its
Pioneerr PD-D9-J (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/AudioComponents/Hi-FiAudio/ci.PD-D9-J.Kuro?tab=A) > Anthem TLP-1 (http://www.anthemav.com/products/anthem/pre-amp/tlp-1) > Anthem MCA 20 (http://www.anthemav.com/products/anthem/amplifier/mca-series/mca-20) > Def Tech BP7004 (http://www.definitivetech.com/Products/products.aspx?path=Floor-Standing%20Speakers&productid=BP7004)
he also has some random turntable thats not that great, so we need to get him a new one of those as well
all hooked up with cables i made, vampire RCA plugs, and furutech cable for the speaker and the interconnects. sounds great, i helped him pick out the whole system (besides the speakers), and its all analog (besides the CD player obv) none of this digital 5.1 jibba-jabba. 2 channel awesomeness :-D
phishhead92,
Tell me about this diymod on your iPod 5g, please...
okay, so to start off, this mod only works for ipods 5.5gen and older (the "newer" video), i have a 5th gen video
and on the inside the DAC that is used on the ipod is actually pretty nice, supports 24/96 i belive, and what you do is remove 2 diodes that process the signal going into the amp (iirc) and then you just solder some extremely thin wire from the pads of the left and right diode pad (the pads before the newly made circuit break) then you solder these wires to their respected channels in the pinout (left > left channel pinout, right > right)
this effectively bypasses the internal amp on the ipod, which is a piece of shit, it degrades the signal pretty greatly. but by bypassing the amplifier you need to replace some of the capacitance, so i made a line out dock with capacitors built into the dock itself,also now that you have bypassed the internal amp you can no longer use headphones in the original headphone jack, this is ment for aux cables and the like (how i connect it when i drive)
some pictures of it (http://s978.photobucket.com/albums/ae263/phishead92/diyLOD%20shrinkwrap/)
this then (as you can see) turns into a mini plug and plugs into my portable headphone amp, which i then strap to my ipod with a "audiophile rubber band" :-D
AKA, a livestrong or wrist band like it.
then i rockboxed my ipod so i could play flac/shn on it, though the higher bitrates eat the battery, totally worth it :)
oh btw my name is will :hereitisyousentimentalbastard nice to meet you! :beers:
wild.
I totally have a rockboxed gen5.5 ipod that is a prime candidate for this...
Quote from: rowjimmy on July 04, 2010, 06:01:27 PM
I totally have a rockboxed gen5.5 ipod that is a prime candidate for this...
.... i can do it for you, we can talk money over PM, also i can show you the parts you need to get (ill eat the cost for cable internal and external), cause to do this i would have to make you a special dock for the ipod.
you mentioned doing the SSD? you would need a compact flash, preferably pick one from newegg, cause the ZIF>CF adapter i need is there. also you need to buy high grade audio capacitors, mini headphone plug and a ipod dock connector
again i can link it up upon request
I'm just starting out int the audiophile scene, and it kind of makes me a little :crazy:, but I just purchased the HD-FLAC from the 4th show, and am listening right now. I can DEFINITELY tell a difference. I'm sure this is going to be a little bit of an addiction now.
Also, I just moved into a new place, and really want to stream some audio wirelessly to my stereo. I've read a ton of reviews on the squeezebox, but I also need a new router, so I was wondering if there is any kind of router that will natively support FLAC... I just bought an Airport Express, but can take it back (I know it won't do the FLAC stuff). Thanks to anyone with any input.
the router shouldn't matter...it's passing packets, not FLAC streams......
Quote from: aphineday on July 06, 2010, 04:59:11 PM
I'm just starting out int the audiophile scene, and it kind of makes me a little :crazy:, but I just purchased the HD-FLAC from the 4th show, and am listening right now. I can DEFINITELY tell a difference. I'm sure this is going to be a little bit of an addiction now.
Also, I just moved into a new place, and really want to stream some audio wirelessly to my stereo. I've read a ton of reviews on the squeezebox, but I also need a new router, so I was wondering if there is any kind of router that will natively support FLAC... I just bought an Airport Express, but can take it back (I know it won't do the FLAC stuff). Thanks to anyone with any input.
im a headphone audiophile/diyer idk much about stereo equipment ... marmar, you do though :-D
Sonos, check it out (http://www.sonos.com/Default.aspx?rdr=true&LangType=1033)
when my dad bought his new setup, there was this wicked thing they offered us, its called sonos you should check it out, you can load up allll your music on a server (obv) and stream it to your individual setups, its like a little wireless system, and its nice cause you can get these remotes, one is touch the others is like a sideways ipod. but you can surf through your library on the server, go to pandora radio, last fm, and those online radios, if you pay for satellite you can get that too, and the funniest part, you can get any radio station in the world (like registered once), they guy at the store pulled up one from ukraine it was pretty funny, the setup is kind of expensive, but imo, its really neat, tity, nice to look at and if you have the music to warrant it its totally worth it,
also not to mention if you have speakers in another room across the house, you just get another little reciver box and you can use the same remote and control both stereo systems at the same time from the single remote, its pretty sweet. and its got a decent pair of DACs in it so with some decent cabling and nice speakers and a nice setup, you should be set, never touch a cd again ;)
Quote from: aphineday on July 06, 2010, 04:59:11 PM
I'm just starting out int the audiophile scene, and it kind of makes me a little :crazy:, but I just purchased the HD-FLAC from the 4th show, and am listening right now. I can DEFINITELY tell a difference. I'm sure this is going to be a little bit of an addiction now.
Also, I just moved into a new place, and really want to stream some audio wirelessly to my stereo. I've read a ton of reviews on the squeezebox, but I also need a new router, so I was wondering if there is any kind of router that will natively support FLAC... I just bought an Airport Express, but can take it back (I know it won't do the FLAC stuff). Thanks to anyone with any input.
I can sell you a Router and a Squeezebox... I never hooked them up since Heather announced she was preggers the day after we moved inot out new house - the music room instantly became the nursery...
http://week4paug.net/for-sale (http://week4paug.net/for-sale)!/fs-random-crap/
/end shameless plug
Terry
Quote from: aphineday on July 06, 2010, 04:59:11 PM
I'm just starting out int the audiophile scene, and it kind of makes me a little :crazy:, but I just purchased the HD-FLAC from the 4th show, and am listening right now. I can DEFINITELY tell a difference. I'm sure this is going to be a little bit of an addiction now.
Also, I just moved into a new place, and really want to stream some audio wirelessly to my stereo. I've read a ton of reviews on the squeezebox, but I also need a new router, so I was wondering if there is any kind of router that will natively support FLAC... I just bought an Airport Express, but can take it back (I know it won't do the FLAC stuff). Thanks to anyone with any input.
Well, you could always convert the FLAC into Apple Lossless or another format iTunes (and Air Tunes) can handle. That's my method of attack. I'll keep the FLAC files on hand unless/until HD space becomes a problem.