2016 Presidential General Election

[mattstick]

Sorry - the line gets drawn at hatred, racism and intolerance.

If Candidate X openly talked about banning your religion from the USA, you don't have the privilege of saying "oh well, I disagree with X on Libya and the fact that X's supporters detest my kind of people, but I like X's stance on health care reform".

If the KKK supports Trump, and his supporters are emboldened by his rhetoric, you don't vote with him because of his "outside Washington" take on reforming the tax code.

And if you didn't vote at all?  FFS.

Whelp, maybe I should leave this thread.

[mattstick]

Donald Fucking Trump had 2 FUCKING years to say "David Duke believes in horrible things, and I don't want his endorsement, and if you stand with David Duke I don't want your vote"

but did he?

And then millions of Americans walked into a voting booth and chose to either A) vote for him or B) not vote for Hillary Clinton to STOP DONALD TRUMP.

Seems like you should be cool with the KKK burning a cross on your fucking lawns if that's the decision you made.

[cactusfan]

I'm in Bermuda for work right now so I missed all this and I'm not gonna try to unpack it all but I will say that I agree pretty much word for word with bvaz. A couple things stand out to me tho:

At the end of the day, if you voted for a racist xenophobe, regardless of your beliefs or intent, your actions were still racist and xenophobic.  Because the end result is the same thing.  You've legitimized and endorsed a racist xenophobe and, because of your actions, people will suffer.

Dan, you voted for Hillary. Do you legitimize and endorse her militarism? Her foremost FP goal of enforcing a no-fly zone over Syria? Her signature achievement as SoS of intervention in Libya ("smart power at its best")? I would be very surprised if you did, and yet you still voted for her. Isn't it possible that some/many/most people had similar reservations about Trump (for obviously very different reasons) but still felt compelled to vote for him based on any multitude of reasons that can't be boiled down to good v evil?

This is not simply a matter of a preferred candidate losing. And it's not comparable to when Obama won when all those against him were freaking out, saying the country would be destroyed, and everything ruined. Those people believed what they believed about him because of what Fox "news" and its ilk told them. That he was a secret Muslim, that he was a socialist, that he'd take all our precious guns away, etc.

...

Trump has no policies. Building a wall, deporting all the foreigners, eliminated healthcare for millions, making "big deals", etc., aren't policies. It's all chest thumping. Everyone has reason to be scared of what he might do, not because we've somehow been convinced by those damned liberals that his policies will be bad for the country--in the way Fox convinced viewers Obama's would be bad--but because no one has ANY IDEA what he's going to do.

It's exactly comparable to how people felt when Obama won (twice). The (very real) anger/fear/sadness/frustration that you are feeling right now is how people who opposed Obama felt upon his electoral victories. But by (effectively) saying, "we are opposing Trump for the right reasons while those opposed to Obama only did so because they were duped by Fox News," you are propagating the exact same dismissive, belittling, condescending argument that so enabled those who voted for Trump.

What does Trump think? Trump is interested in power and satisfying his own ego. I see no evidence of him knowing anything about politics, about policies, about governing, and I have no idea what he believes in other than his own bullshit. He is a new element in American politics.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Not sure why you're selectively reading what I wrote.

I'm not saying anyone FEELS any different, my entire point is to explain how the REASONS ARE DIFFERENT. People felt this anger at Obama based on what THEY HAD BEEN TOLD HE WAS. Do you not understand that? Nothing to do with what he SAID, or what his verbally expressed POLICIES were to be, but because of how he'd been represented.

Trump has created the reaction he has for exactly the opposite reason. It is based ENTIRELY ON WHAT HE HAS SAID AND DONE. Do you seriously not understand that? Do you live in some strange cocoon where what people say is ignored? That candidates simply represent party platforms and are otherwise indistinguishable?

Trump has PROVEN all by himself the kind of person he is. Forget about policies--of which he has none--forget about the fact that you don't like Hillary because her voice makes your balls shrink or whatever. Did she threaten to silence journalists, to jail her opponent, do deport millions, to spy on specific minorities? Did she create dog-whistle attack ads against african american and jews? Did she stay up all night tweeting violent insane garbage about women too fat and ugly to fuck?

The fear people are feeling at his election has nothing to do with his being a republican--which he barely is anyway--it's WHO HE IS. And WHO HE IS is the man he, all by himself, has shown himself to be.

Hatred at Obama was not based on WHO HE IS or what he proposed to do. It was--and is--based on the FALSE PERCEPTION that he he is a secret muslim, foreign born, socialist, bent on destroying america, etc. etc. etc.

This:

Sorry - the line gets drawn at hatred, racism and intolerance.

If Candidate X openly talked about banning your religion from the USA, you don't have the privilege of saying "oh well, I disagree with X on Libya and the fact that X's supporters detest my kind of people, but I like X's stance on health care reform".

If the KKK supports Trump, and his supporters are emboldened by his rhetoric, you don't vote with him because of his "outside Washington" take on reforming the tax code.

And if you didn't vote at all?  FFS.

Whelp, maybe I should leave this thread.

Yep. Me too. I've said my say. Back to writing about movies...

[mattstick]

Gee, let's see here... the Democrat has been involved in some corrupt dealings since she's been at the highest levels of government since the early 90s, but I can't vote for her...

No, instead I'll let Donald FUCKING Trump WIN THE ELECTION and become President, a man who doesn't believe in climate change and will push back the ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET'S efforts to stop Global Warming.

Yeah, real nuanced choice there... Jesus Christ.

[mattstick]

Please don't report me to Melania's new Cyber Bullying Task Force.

[VDB]

The line gets drawn at racism but not at actually killing innocent civilians using mechanisms of war?

Obama has had eight years to reform the drug war or at least give states substantial leeway by descheduling, say, cannabis altogether. Instead, he seems content to watch as people with guns throw you in a cage for having a plant.

Point being, there are plenty of moral outrages to go around. I'm not saying everyone's stirring up an equal quantity of them, but no one has the monopoly.

Somehow I feel like myself and a couple others are sitting here defending Donald Trump when in fact all we're pointing out is that the (fully valid) reasons so many people hate him are not necessarily the same reasons so many other people voted for him.

Also, Donald Trump is a soulless panderer who knew what he needed to do and say to energize a voting bloc he desperately counted on to win the election. He's morally bankrupt, but that matters bupkis to someone who decided decades ago that Hillary is too.

[ytowndan]

At the end of the day, if you voted for a racist xenophobe, regardless of your beliefs or intent, your actions were still racist and xenophobic.  Because the end result is the same thing.  You've legitimized and endorsed a racist xenophobe and, because of your actions, people will suffer.

Dan, you voted for Hillary. Do you legitimize and endorse her militarism? Her foremost FP goal of enforcing a no-fly zone over Syria? Her signature achievement as SoS of intervention in Libya ("smart power at its best")? I would be very surprised if you did, and yet you still voted for her. Isn't it possible that some/many/most people had similar reservations about Trump (for obviously very different reasons) but still felt compelled to vote for him based on any multitude of reasons that can't be boiled down to good v evil?

In short, yes. As far as foreign policy goes, my choice was between center-right, hawkish militarism and full-blown, far-right jingoism.  I'm okay with endorsing the former over the latter, considering this was a general election with limited choices.

[ytowndan]

My county in Ohio (Mahoning) is one of the deepest, darkest, blue counties in the state.  Dems win elections here with dictator like percentages.  Republicans don't even bother running in most local elections (often times the only people on the ballot is a Dem and a Green -- and sometimes the Green is actually competitive). But Hillary squeaked by with just 50.1% of the vote here.  Wtf?!?  This was the easiest decision ever. 

[VA $l!m]

its sad to say, but i actually respect someone who will admit to being racist, sexest, xenophbic etc than these self denying blinders on -refuse to admit they are complicit mother fuckers. seriously, man the fuck up.

&
PS- just for today ill let you guys in on my super secret closet racist test.
...sorry in advance for anyone here that might be in denial.
-Ask someone if they like watching  basketball: If they say 'just college ball" - then theyre a closet racist. works every time.

[VDB]

just for today ill let you guys in on my super secret closet racist test.
...sorry in advance for anyone here that might be in denial.
-Ask someone if they like watching  basketball: If they say 'just college ball" - then theyre a closet racist. works every time.

That's pretty good. Obvious slam dunk if they say their favorite team's Duke.

[runawayjimbo]

I'm late for work and the Paug is blocked at the office here in Bermuda so I'll have more later, but needless to say, I disagree. Respectfully.

[sls.stormyrider]

My own take on this is that there are a lot of pissed off folks, many in the rust belt, and Trump tapped into their anger. Was racism and xenophobia part of it? For many, yes.
Michael Moore sent out an email this past spring fearing a Trump victory because he saw the motivation of the pissed off people in the rust belt.

and you know what else gets non - democrats motivated? Hillary. They hate her. And, face it, she didn't inspire many on the left. A good moderate GOP candidate would have blown her off the map
This should be a wake up call for the bosses of both parties, because the heir apparants of both failed.

I hope that Trump said a lot of that shit just to get elected. Time will tell.

[antelope19]

My own take on this is that there are a lot of pissed off folks, many in the rust belt, and Trump tapped into their anger. Was racism and xenophobia part of it? For many, yes.
Michael Moore sent out an email this past spring fearing a Trump victory because he saw the motivation of the pissed off people in the rust belt.

and you know what else gets non - democrats motivated? Hillary. They hate her. And, face it, she didn't inspire many on the left. A good moderate GOP candidate would have blown her off the map
This should be a wake up call for the bosses of both parties, because the heir apparants of both failed.

I hope that Trump said a lot of that shit just to get elected. Time will tell.

This. These are my thoughts exactly.

The GOP doesn't get control of everything(house, senate, White House) for the first time since 1928 because people are happy about the way things have gone the last 4 (arguably 8 ) years. Hillary represented more of the same to a lot of people. And as mentioned above, a lot of people just flat out despise Hillary.

But yeah, I really hope this was a serious wake up call to both parties. We need to do significantly better in 4 years. That Colbert clip struck a cord with me: It seems we have lost our way a bit.

[mbw]

The GOP doesn't get control of everything(house, senate, White House) for the first time since 1928 because people are happy about the way things have gone the last 4 (arguably 8 ) years. Hillary represented more of the same to a lot of people.

Yeah, great.  So lets elect possibly the biggest asshole in the country.

[rowjimmy]

Look at turn-out but don't blame those numbers solely on disaffect voters.
Disenfranchised voters were also a significant factor in several states.

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-gops-attack-on-voting-rights-was-the-most-under-covered-story-of-2016/

The abolishment of the VRA enabled Voter ID laws which allowed polling stations to turn away droves of would-be voters. These were largely minority voters.

We'll likely never know how many people were kept from the polls by restrictions like voter-ID laws, cuts to early voting, and barriers to voter registration. But at the very least this should have been a question that many more people were looking into. For example, 27,000 votes currently separate Trump and Clinton in Wisconsin, where 300,000 registered voters, according to a federal court, lacked strict forms of voter ID. Voter turnout in Wisconsin was at its lowest levels in 20 years and decreased 13 percent in Milwaukee, where 70 percent of the state's African-American population lives, according to Daniel Nichanian of the University of Chicago.

I documented stories of voters in Wisconsin—including a 99-year-old man—who made two trips to the polls and one to the DMV on Election Day just to be able to vote, while others decided not to vote at all because they were denied IDs. When Margie Mueller, an 85-year-old woman from Plymouth, Wisconsin, wasn't allowed to vote with her expired driver's license, her husband, Alvin, decided not to vote either. They were both Democrats. "The damn Republicans," he said, "don't want Latinos and old people to vote."

This and the broad elimination of polling places themselves cut into turnout.

This is something we can work on changing.