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Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?

Started by emay, July 20, 2012, 09:35:53 AM

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gah

Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

nab

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 05, 2012, 10:08:47 PM
Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on August 05, 2012, 09:49:47 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/7-killed-including-gunman-in-shooting-at-wisconsin-sikh-temple/2012/08/05/70692158-df2b-11e1-a19c-fcfa365396c8_story.html

brand new mass shooting!

If only vdb lived in wisconsin, none of this would've happened.



If only idealism solved sociological problems, then the only people without power would be those who lack ideas and the means to broadcast those ideas. 

rowjimmy

Guns certainly don't solve sociological problems.
Guns are a sociological problem.

So... do you support the furthering of a problem or not?


gah

Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

nab

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 06, 2012, 08:42:27 AM
Guns certainly don't solve sociological problems.
Guns are a sociological problem.

So... do you support the furthering of a problem or not?



Gun violence is a symptom of deeper sociological, and at times personal, psychological, problem.  I don't believe that simple access to guns is the motivator of these problems, by rather that they stem from issues involving inequality; namely financial,cultural, and medical inequality. 

So it depends on what you mean by "the problem".  I believe that prohibition, of most anything, is a poor way to treat a symptom of a problem.  Then again, we are all adults, and there have been instances where partial prohibition of certain dangerous entities, such as alcohol to those under
21, has done more good than harm.  In this light, I can support partial prohibition ( ex. 100 round clips or automatic weapons, pick your poison) as part of a solution that keeps the populace safe while still respecting the integrity of those who don't use guns for harmful purposes.   

So no, I don't support the furthering of a problem.  I advocate systemic changes that address cultural inequality as a solution to solving the deeper sociological problems that precipitate gun violence. 
   

rowjimmy

Countering idealism with cynicism is not moving toward any kind of a solution.

nab

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 06, 2012, 10:39:54 AM
Countering idealism with cynicism is not moving toward any kind of a solution.



I don't see my response as cynical.  I shifted the focus of the problem from gun violence, which I believe to be symptomatic, to what I believe the real problem is, cultural equality. 

If you want to argue about the finer points of that solution, I'm all ears, but if you really read what I wrote, it is more properly translated as answering idealism with more idealism.   

rowjimmy

Quote from: nab on August 06, 2012, 10:47:07 AM
Quote from: rowjimmy on August 06, 2012, 10:39:54 AM
Countering idealism with cynicism is not moving toward any kind of a solution.



I don't see my response as cynical.  I shifted the focus of the problem from gun violence, which I believe to be symptomatic, to what I believe the real problem is, cultural equality. 

If you want to argue about the finer points of that solution, I'm all ears, but if you really read what I wrote, it is more properly translated as answering idealism with more idealism.   

I was referencing this:


Quote from: nab on August 06, 2012, 01:09:15 AM
Quote from: goodabouthood on August 05, 2012, 10:08:47 PM
Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on August 05, 2012, 09:49:47 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/7-killed-including-gunman-in-shooting-at-wisconsin-sikh-temple/2012/08/05/70692158-df2b-11e1-a19c-fcfa365396c8_story.html

brand new mass shooting!

If only vdb lived in wisconsin, none of this would've happened.



If only idealism solved sociological problems, then the only people without power would be those who lack ideas and the means to broadcast those ideas.

Superfreakie

Quote from: nab on August 06, 2012, 01:09:15 AM
Quote from: goodabouthood on August 05, 2012, 10:08:47 PM
Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on August 05, 2012, 09:49:47 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/7-killed-including-gunman-in-shooting-at-wisconsin-sikh-temple/2012/08/05/70692158-df2b-11e1-a19c-fcfa365396c8_story.html

brand new mass shooting!

If only vdb lived in wisconsin, none of this would've happened.



If only idealism solved sociological problems, then the only people without power would be those who lack ideas and the means to broadcast those ideas.

without idealism, among other things, women would still be second class citizens and blacks would be slaves.
Que te vaya bien, que te vaya bien, Te quiero más que las palabras pueden decir.

sls.stormyrider

#221
lots of damage was done to people and property in the ghettos in Eastern Europe without guns.
As much as I believe in gun control, this guy would have used Molotov Cocktails or something like that. I say that only because we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking that less guns would have prevented this.
we need to figure out a way to stop this kind of hatred - although it has been going on since time began.

that all said, it sure would be nice if there were less guns.
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

nab

Quote from: Superfreakie on August 06, 2012, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: nab on August 06, 2012, 01:09:15 AM
Quote from: goodabouthood on August 05, 2012, 10:08:47 PM
Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on August 05, 2012, 09:49:47 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/7-killed-including-gunman-in-shooting-at-wisconsin-sikh-temple/2012/08/05/70692158-df2b-11e1-a19c-fcfa365396c8_story.html

brand new mass shooting!

If only vdb lived in wisconsin, none of this would've happened.



If only idealism solved sociological problems, then the only people without power would be those who lack ideas and the means to broadcast those ideas.

without idealism, among other things, women would still be second class citizens and blacks would be slaves.

It's that "among other things" that is the sticky mess.  I agree, there can't be a construct (ex. equality) created without an idea (ex. "We need equality to function as a true democracy"), but the work is in realizing the construct and not in simply dreaming it.  In the case of voting rights for women, the 19th amendment to the United States Constitution is not a product of idealism alone, but of negotiation, bill writing, politics, and the time in which it was created. 

Having an idea for a great invention is not the same as inventing something great. 

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 06, 2012, 01:04:46 PM
Quote from: nab on August 06, 2012, 10:47:07 AM
Quote from: rowjimmy on August 06, 2012, 10:39:54 AM
Countering idealism with cynicism is not moving toward any kind of a solution.



I don't see my response as cynical.  I shifted the focus of the problem from gun violence, which I believe to be symptomatic, to what I believe the real problem is, cultural equality. 

If you want to argue about the finer points of that solution, I'm all ears, but if you really read what I wrote, it is more properly translated as answering idealism with more idealism.   

I was referencing this:


Quote from: nab on August 06, 2012, 01:09:15 AM
Quote from: goodabouthood on August 05, 2012, 10:08:47 PM
Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on August 05, 2012, 09:49:47 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/7-killed-including-gunman-in-shooting-at-wisconsin-sikh-temple/2012/08/05/70692158-df2b-11e1-a19c-fcfa365396c8_story.html

brand new mass shooting!

If only vdb lived in wisconsin, none of this would've happened.



If only idealism solved sociological problems, then the only people without power would be those who lack ideas and the means to broadcast those ideas.



See my comment to SF above. 





So now that we've ironed out where we all stand on idealism, we could discuss some of the generalities that might lead to a productive conversation about gun violence and how to address it in our society.


I am generally a proponent of the idea often summed up as "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".  As I stated earlier, I believe that gun violence is a sociological problem that stems from cultural inequality.  Cultural inequality is both quantifiable (ex. statistics that gauge wealth inequality) and intangible (ex. religion means X to me).  I also believe that comprehensive, systemic, change in society that results in the betterment of that society is usually most effective when it modifies both the tangible (ex. legislative control over gun availability) and intangible (ex. cultural feelings about gun use in America).  I don't believe that complete prohibition of firearms for civilians addresses the intangible aspects of gun violence, and as such, will be a failed prohibition. 

So, I advocate for partial prohibition.  More importantly, I advocate for systems (a law is and example of a system, as well as academic doctrine or the scientific method, the list goes on) that help to alleviate cultural inequality in our society.  I do so because I see this as the root of the gun violence problem. 





rowjimmy

Getting rid of guns might not end violence but keeping them sure isn't helping things, is it?

So are we discussing guns or the violence of our culture?

Two different, although related, topics.

nab

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 06, 2012, 03:48:38 PM
Getting rid of guns might not end violence but keeping them sure isn't helping things, is it?





Couldn't you apply the same logic to anything that is potentially dangerous?  "If we get rid of bees it may not eliminate the danger of being stung (because hornets sting as well), but keeping them sure isn't reducing stings either."

I don't see how the existence of gun violence is in and of itself an argument for total prohibition. 



Quote from: rowjimmy on August 06, 2012, 03:48:38 PM


So are we discussing guns or the violence of our culture?

Two different, although related, topics.


I'm not talking specifically about the violence of our culture, though that can certainly be understood as another symptom of cultural inequality, certainly of the same sort that produces the more specific gun related variety. 


I'm talking about systemic change that eliminates the need for gun violence.  To me that is a more practical approach than prohibition.  It starts mainly with education that can lead to informed dialog.