some thoughts

[Gumbo72203]

Well, here we are just at the passing of the latest Phish festival.  Anything different from F8?  Kinda not really.  But, certain things have come to light which I just can't sit on without getting other interweb Phish elitists thoughts on.

First, we have the current state of the band.  I am not knocking the performance, because they are playing well.  Certain things have come to be expected and must be taken at face value, such as the "I-fucked-up-so-many-times-that-they-became-new-arrangements" versions of Gotta Jibboo and Mike's Song, the ripcord and/or fhorsing of the segues, etc.  But on the other hand, there are some fucking monumental versions of songs with great fucking playing.

From my limited exposure to this summer, I count the following as worthy of repeated listenings:  6/1 Tweezer, Twist, and Number Line, 6/3 DWD, 6/8 Weekapaug > Whats The Use? > Theme, 6/11 Wilson > Sand, etc.


Anyway, point being, there are good, and bad things.  Now, the focus of this post is that I believe the band to be in tune with the majority of the audience at the shows: young kids, inexperienced with Phish who want to party.


A few weeks ago at work, these 2 kids who I figured couldn't be more than 16 or 17 were in the store, messing around on guitars together, trying to sing and play "Free".  I entered the conversation with my comment about being able to buy Trey's guitars from Paul for $25,000.  We get talking, and kid 2 is like "How many times have you seen Phish?  Were you at SPAC last year?" and I'm like "uhh, I don't know, and yeah I was at both."  He goes "I went to the 1st one, it was awesome, it was the first time I saw them." 

So, I'm trying to remember what they played, and kid 2 is like "They played Suzy, Prince Caspian...  and Character Zero!  Oh, and they played Sample In a Jar too!  Those were incredible!!!"   Meanwhile, my head starts shaking in disappointment, and then Kid 1 comes in with "Yeah, it was the Rock and Roll, Page's new song, the double Tweeprise...." and I'm like "Oh yeah, with Gin, and Fluffhead..."

Anyway, so it turns out Kid 1 has seen 3.0 like a shitload of times.  He's way younger than me.  We get talking, and I'm asking him about all these old shows, if he's ever heard Big Cypress, etc etc and he asks me "Well, what do you think about them now?" to which I reply "Well..........  its complicated.  They're obviously having a blast, and thats awesome, they're playing well, Trey is sober, they're enjoying themselves on stage, and that matters the most.  But... I really wish they would jam more.  The jamming that they do do is great, Darien was evidence of that, but.... they need to push 15 mins more often."

And so I'm like "Okay, well whats your favorite period?"  And hes like "Probably '97-'98...  I like the funk."  I get a big grin, and go "YES, with the REAL version of Ghost, with the whammy loops" and he's like "Yeah theres a ton of incredible shows, they were doing something amazing almost every night.  The show from Rochester in '97.... and the big Runaway Jim, the Hampton release..." and I'm like "OKay, you get it."

But then he's like "But I really like what they're doing now."   And I'm stunned. 

And then I read on one of the Superball show review pages that some kid turned to a nearby person and exclaimed, with great exuberance "THIS IS SUCH A SICK JAM!!!!" when Trey was doing the looping opening to Silent In The Morning.  Couple this with the person I encountered who did basically the same thing during Whats The Use? at Darien....

...and we get a band who is playing to their enraptured, yet uneducated and ignorant audience.  They're playing to the kids who want to hear rawk songs, who want to be able to claim they played the best version of Sample In A Jar, and who want to throw glow sticks.  These kids care nothing for big, epic jams, and don't know the difference between what they're experiencing, which in their minds is an objectively amazing experience, and what had happened before. 


So, Phish can basically phone it in with little effort, and be hailed as gods and the saviors of everything "hip" and groovy.  Just like the horde of hoola-hooping tweeners at Darien who couldn't answer "46 Days" when I had a total brainfart at the beginning of that song and asked them for help.


So, I don't know......  what do you guys think?  I mean, F8 had like zero big jamming, although the version of Piper -> JAM from that is absolutely awesome, but here we get 7 sets of Phish without anything remotely experimental, aside from the Storage Jam which I have yet to hear, as well as a festival with no YEM or Slave.......


Are we in for a less-jammed Phish, due to the audience demographics?  I think its the case.  I'm hoping they're going on an early-90's trajectory still, of no big jams but very incredible playing, like how basically until 1994 there was never any non-composed song that would top 13-14 mins with any regularity (by composed song I mean Bowie, YEM, Fluffhead, etc).  It was only Summer '94 when Tweezer began its lengthening, followed by Mike's Song in '95, and then DWD, Gin and Tweezer in '96.....



So, anyway...  does Phish take the audience make-up into account?  Can that be levied as an adequate explanation? 

[Superfreakie]

I'm checkin' 'em out
I've got it figured out
There's some good points
- some bad points
But it all works out
- I'm just a little freaked out


and just a side note, which has nothing to do with your thesis, November '94 and 1995 would argue that the following statement is slightly off:

It was only Summer '94 when Tweezer began its lengthening, followed by Mike's Song in '95, and then DWD, Gin and Tweezer in '96.....

[antelope19]

TLDR

[PIE-GUY]

Honestly, that's a lot of words. I mean, it's an essay for fuck's sake.

Phish is playing what they want to play to people who want to see them.

This weekend was really good. The Tweezer, while short, was freaking great. The SIHTOS was great. The Jam to open a set was unexpected and great. Was any of it 30 minutes of raw improvisation... actually, yes... there was that, too.

Point being, I don't really think they are "playing to the young crowd." They are playing what they want to play.

The theories I keep hearing on here that they would sell more tickets if they jammed more are unfounded, imo. They are selling as many tickets as they are going to sell in this market.

[spaced]

I really doubt they're pandering to the audience, I think this is just the way they want to play now. If they were just trying to bilk the lowest common denominator out of some $$$, I don't think they'd be as genuinely happy as they seem up there. Plus, drugged-up noobs have no problem with long jams either, they just tend to like whatever the band plays - jamming certainly didn't stop them from growing their fan base in the '90s.

My philosophy on the whole thing is that as long as they play the way they want to play, they'll stay happy and keep making music for a long time to come, and eventually that will probably include more jamming.

[JPhishman]

I'm checkin' 'em out
I've got it figured out
There's some good points
- some bad points
But it all works out
- I'm just a little freaked out

Well Played.

Agreed with PG. The Tweezer was sick. Ghost however, while it was good I was happy to dance to it while it lasted, it just seemed like Trey had no clue what to do with it. and that seems to be the problem. When the crowd isn't there it doesn't matter if he knows what he's doing, he is cool with just fucking around and you get the Tech rehearsal Waves. When the crowd is there, on the other hand, I think he's not willing to push through until they hit the groove we're all waiting for. It's lacking direction and it's ripcord time..... I dunno. They were definitely trying hard at Light to make it go somewhere. IT just isn't coming easy...

I don't really think they're just playing to the n00bs though.

[twatts]

Kind Old Hippie > Stupid Kid > Grumpy Old Man > Surprise > Deep Thoughts > Ghost

There's your Jam...

Terry

[aphineday]

Wow, some really good discussion happening here. I feel like Everybody has a good point to make, and it all sounds logical, but I find myself agreeing with Gumbo on the majority of it. I feel like it's hard not to pander to some kind of really balls-out, glowstick tossing rawk piques. I mean, when I play shows with my band, and I feel like we're losing people, I always want to try and change it up. That being said, I wish they'd just push through the uncomfortable areas. JPhish is nailing it when he says that they were trying hard at Light, but IT just isn't coming. Troof. PG, I agree with you on most everything, but do think that they try to play to energies in the crowd. Maybe not n00bs specifically, but just the overall energy.

As for the

drugged-up noobs have no problem with long jams either, they just tend to like whatever the band plays - jamming certainly didn't stop them from growing their fan base in the '90s.

This is the biggest difference of opinion for me in this thread thus far. This isn't the 90's. They aren't an indie band trying to build a fan base. The 90's was about building and growing that fan base. The n00bs don't like the jamz - at least not the true jams from what I can tell. Whenever the guys try to take it out, I see all these kids that were raging so hard, being so psyched, etc. taking piss breaks, texting, and getting beer... mind blowing. This obviously isn't ALL of the n00bs, but definitely a good number.

[runawayjimbo]

Point being, I don't really think they are "playing to the young crowd." They are playing what they want to play.

The theories I keep hearing on here that they would sell more tickets if they jammed more are unfounded, imo. They are selling as many tickets as they are going to sell in this market.

If they are in fact playing what they want and are truly satisfied with the music they are making, I would accept that. I just don't believe that they are. When I listen to this tour, I don't hear them playing with confidence. They sound scared or at least on edge. A song ends and you can feel a sigh of relief cause they made it without falling of the rails too badly.

Then I hear the tech rehearsal and soundcheck and they seem to sync up so effortlessly. They are in control of the jam so they just sit back and let ideas come forth naturally. You saw it in the 1st set on Sunday too (and there have been flashes of it, a la Portsmouth Sand). I just don't get how if they don't want to be playing like this, why they are doing it? I really think they want to find that place as much as we want them to, but they just don't have that comfort level in front of an audience right now. And like I said somewhere else, I don't want them to play like they did in '94 or '97; I want them to play like they did in that Waves.

If they are in full control of what they are doing, then I guess I'll have to live with the fact that I have to find some other avenue for my obsessions. But until I'm sure, I'll keep showing up. Also, faux said kinda the same thing and I don't know how to live in a world where he's right.

And, Gumbo, I really am psyched to read this over the next couple of days.

[JPhishman]

Agreed about Trey the being uncomfortable. Night one I felt like the Simple made Trey uncomfortable and he wasn't happy with what came out of it, tried to blow it off with Bug and everything after that was sub-par. Just sounding off. Less than 7 min Week4paug says to me that things aren't going well. I didn't talk to many people that agreed with me though.  I believe said he picked up on it.

I haven't listened back yet though, maybe I was just high and reading too much into it. Show def went downhill for me after Bug.

[anthrax]

So, I don't know......  what do you guys think?  I mean, F8 had like zero big jamming, although the version of Piper -> JAM from that is absolutely awesome, but here we get 7 sets of Phish without anything remotely experimental, aside from the Storage Jam which I have yet to hear, as well as a festival with no YEM or Slave.......

go listen to the storage jam

[spaced]

As for the

drugged-up noobs have no problem with long jams either, they just tend to like whatever the band plays - jamming certainly didn't stop them from growing their fan base in the '90s.

This is the biggest difference of opinion for me in this thread thus far. This isn't the 90's. They aren't an indie band trying to build a fan base. The 90's was about building and growing that fan base. The n00bs don't like the jamz - at least not the true jams from what I can tell. Whenever the guys try to take it out, I see all these kids that were raging so hard, being so psyched, etc. taking piss breaks, texting, and getting beer... mind blowing. This obviously isn't ALL of the n00bs, but definitely a good number.

I don't totally disagree, but I think you have to distinguish between different types of people. The sort of people that Gumbo was describing were more what I was thinking of. They're the guys who genuinely like the band a lot, but have a pretty uncritical way of looking at things. I think what I said holds true for them. Then you have the really casual types who don't know many songs and just decided to come along cuz the circus was in town. Those people would definitely rather hear a rawk peak 46 Days than a tripped out 20 min. Ghost, but my sense is that if the band were going to pander, they wouldn't be pandering to those folks, they'd be pandering to the sorts of people Gumbo described.

ETA: just to clarify, those "uncritical fan" types wouldn't have a problem with jams, IMO.

[spaced]

If they are in fact playing what they want and are truly satisfied with the music they are making, I would accept that. I just don't believe that they are. When I listen to this tour, I don't hear them playing with confidence. They sound scared or at least on edge. A song ends and you can feel a sigh of relief cause they made it without falling of the rails too badly.

Then I hear the tech rehearsal and soundcheck and they seem to sync up so effortlessly. They are in control of the jam so they just sit back and let ideas come forth naturally. You saw it in the 1st set on Sunday too (and there have been flashes of it, a la Portsmouth Sand). I just don't get how if they don't want to be playing like this, why they are doing it? I really think they want to find that place as much as we want them to, but they just don't have that comfort level in front of an audience right now.

This to me is interesting. Do you think they've improved in terms of confidence since '09? It sure sounds to me like they have, but the style hasn't changed AT ALL, it just sounds to me like they're refining the same thing they've been doing all 3.0 - shorter jams, more songs per set, etc. If they were gradually jamming more as they got more confident, it would make me think that jamming more was the goal, but things haven't really changed even though they've gotten more in-sync with each other.

[aphineday]

As for the

drugged-up noobs have no problem with long jams either, they just tend to like whatever the band plays - jamming certainly didn't stop them from growing their fan base in the '90s.

This is the biggest difference of opinion for me in this thread thus far. This isn't the 90's. They aren't an indie band trying to build a fan base. The 90's was about building and growing that fan base. The n00bs don't like the jamz - at least not the true jams from what I can tell. Whenever the guys try to take it out, I see all these kids that were raging so hard, being so psyched, etc. taking piss breaks, texting, and getting beer... mind blowing. This obviously isn't ALL of the n00bs, but definitely a good number.

I don't totally disagree, but I think you have to distinguish between different types of people. The sort of people that Gumbo was describing were more what I was thinking of. They're the guys who genuinely like the band a lot, but have a pretty uncritical way of looking at things. I think what I said holds true for them. Then you have the really casual types who don't know many songs and just decided to come along cuz the circus was in town. Those people would definitely rather hear a rawk peak 46 Days than a tripped out 20 min. Ghost, but my sense is that if the band were going to pander, they wouldn't be pandering to those folks, they'd be pandering to the sorts of people Gumbo described.

ETA: just to clarify, those "uncritical fan" types wouldn't have a problem with jams, IMO.

Okay, I can see that, but I speaking more of an entire crowd dynamic. That was more, and more the feeling I got at Superball anyway, and I guess pandering is a bad word. Maybe what I meant was that it's easy to want to satisfy the "raging peak" crowd ALL the time. Almost seems to me that T is so worried about the next peak, that he doesn't let jamz develop.

[Marmar]

riddle me this, riddle me that.....

Maybe what I meant was that it's easy to want to satisfy the "raging peak" crowd ALL the time. Almost seems to me that T is so worried about the next peak, that he doesn't let jamz develop.

Why can't both levels coexist within the same context.....? a la Chalkdust from IT.....

What would a jam be without some kind of peak?.....

I just don't get these guys. They have the ability to go anywhere they want musically.....ANYWHERE......and they choose this Song>rawk>ambient -> Next song format that is almost (dare I say) almost the same formula that another well known jam band adopted which lead to their creative end as a group.....I feel like we're watching history repeat itself on some levels here.....