week4paug.net

Round #3 - Ghost vs. Bathtub Gin

Ghost - (1) 11-17-1997 - McNichols Arena - Denver, CO

vs.

Gin - (1) 07-29-1998 - Riverport Amphitheater - Maryland Heights, MO

POLL CLOSES: Tuesday, 8/07, 10pm EST

i like this ghost a lot, but come on, it's highly overrated. just cause the band loved it at the time doesn't put it over the top.

this gin is one of the best anythings ever.

Quote from: cactusfan on August 02, 2012, 11:46:32 PM
this gin is one of the best anythings ever.

Truth, this man speaks it.

ghost

I have never been as big a fan of that fall 97 shit as the rest of you guys... Which makes this easy.

I'm with cactusfan -- it's a good Ghost but I don't put it in the upper echelon of Phish jams.

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on August 03, 2012, 10:14:23 AM
it's a good Ghost but I don't put it in the upper echelon of Phish jams.

:-o

this ghost defines the upper echelons of phish jams for me.

the jam that begins near 12:48(LP) is why Gin gets my vote.  it goes back to our previous debate of which was tour was better Fall '97 vs. Summer '98 in that both represent the peak of Phish funk. 

Quote from: phil on August 03, 2012, 10:59:46 AM

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on August 03, 2012, 10:14:23 AM
it's a good Ghost but I don't put it in the upper echelon of Phish jams.

:-o

this ghost defines the upper echelons of phish jams for me.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess.

Don't get me wrong, I like it. A good bit.

But,

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 19, 2012, 08:01:04 PM

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on July 19, 2012, 07:47:47 PM
Even though it's not even my favorite jam from that show set. I've always been partial to the Tweezer...

FYP

Riverport is fun but I don't think it even comes close to the majesty of Denver.

Both are amazing jams, but I'd rank many Ghosts higher than this one...... whereas this Gin is perhaps the best ever, imo.

I vote Gin.

This is tough.

I went with Ghost for personal reasons. I might not be a phish fan had I not heard 11/17/97 and had the musical/life epiphany that followed. I'd probably be a totally different person, in fact.

But, all of that doesn't take away from the fact that the Riverport Gin is, without a doubt, a top shelf Phish jam. One of the best.

I wouldn't put Riverport in my top 20.

Quote from: danje on August 03, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
I wouldn't put Riverport in my top 20.

:?

I'd be interested to see your top 20.

Quote from: susep on August 03, 2012, 11:26:22 AM
the jam that begins near 12:48(LP) is why Gin gets my vote.  it goes back to our previous debate of which was tour was better Fall '97 vs. Summer '98 in that both represent the peak of Phish funk.

I prefer Fall 1997, but, ironically, I voted Gin because of what leads up to the 12:48 mark. I think post 12:48 on this Gin cancels out much of what happens in the Denver Ghost and we are in 6 of one, half dozen of another territory.

If they had taken the thought they begin at around 9:30, flesh out at 11:15, and ultimately disregard near 14:00 on this Ghost and and cranked the tempo, gone from mf > FFF, and peaked the shit out of it, this would be a closer matchup for me. But it stays under-developed, whereas in Riverport, they attack their ideas and play towards a point even if ultimately they take their foot off the gas for the remainder.

Better goal oriented playing in the Riverport Gin during the first half, which is why I listen to them. The rest of the minutes is just a bonus.

Quote from: McGrupp on August 03, 2012, 02:59:51 PM

Quote from: danje on August 03, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
I wouldn't put Riverport in my top 20.

:?

I'd be interested to see your top 20.

I guess it depends on how you could judge and rank Phish jams. If you were to take each individual moment of a jam, rank it, then average them all together, Riverport obviously would rank extremely high. I just don't personally find any specific moment of that jam to be absolutely mind blowing. For instance, I would probably prefer the 2/14/03 Gin to Riverport simply because it contains a good 30 seconds of mind blowing material, despite the fact that as a whole, Riverport is clearly superioir.

Quote from: danje on August 06, 2012, 05:06:11 PM

Quote from: McGrupp on August 03, 2012, 02:59:51 PM

Quote from: danje on August 03, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
I wouldn't put Riverport in my top 20.

:?

I'd be interested to see your top 20.

I guess it depends on how you could judge and rank Phish jams. If you were to take each individual moment of a jam, rank it, then average them all together, Riverport obviously would rank extremely high. I just don't personally find any specific moment of that jam to be absolutely mind blowing. For instance, I would probably prefer the 2/14/03 Gin to Riverport simply because it contains a good 30 seconds of mind blowing material, despite the fact that as a whole, Riverport is clearly superioir.

Eh, the L.A. Gin isn't even the best Gin from that tour IMO. 

And no I'm not talking about Nassau.

Quote from: Hicks on August 06, 2012, 05:18:54 PM

Quote from: danje on August 06, 2012, 05:06:11 PM

Quote from: McGrupp on August 03, 2012, 02:59:51 PM

Quote from: danje on August 03, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
I wouldn't put Riverport in my top 20.

:?

I'd be interested to see your top 20.

I guess it depends on how you could judge and rank Phish jams. If you were to take each individual moment of a jam, rank it, then average them all together, Riverport obviously would rank extremely high. I just don't personally find any specific moment of that jam to be absolutely mind blowing. For instance, I would probably prefer the 2/14/03 Gin to Riverport simply because it contains a good 30 seconds of mind blowing material, despite the fact that as a whole, Riverport is clearly superioir.

Eh, the L.A. Gin isn't even the best Gin from that tour IMO. 

And no I'm not talking about Nassau.

But you love that Nassau show!

/joke



I assume you're referring to Cincy.

Riverport wins

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on August 06, 2012, 09:56:57 PM

Quote from: Hicks on August 06, 2012, 05:18:54 PM

Quote from: danje on August 06, 2012, 05:06:11 PM

Quote from: McGrupp on August 03, 2012, 02:59:51 PM

Quote from: danje on August 03, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
I wouldn't put Riverport in my top 20.

:?

I'd be interested to see your top 20.

I guess it depends on how you could judge and rank Phish jams. If you were to take each individual moment of a jam, rank it, then average them all together, Riverport obviously would rank extremely high. I just don't personally find any specific moment of that jam to be absolutely mind blowing. For instance, I would probably prefer the 2/14/03 Gin to Riverport simply because it contains a good 30 seconds of mind blowing material, despite the fact that as a whole, Riverport is clearly superioir.

Eh, the L.A. Gin isn't even the best Gin from that tour IMO. 

And no I'm not talking about Nassau.

But you love that Nassau show!

/joke



I assume you're referring to Cincy.

Yep, Cinci Gin FTW.

Anyway regarding this matchup, it was another tough one for me.   It's funny though I don't really hear things in this Ghost that I used to hear.  It used to be the end all be all jam and having listened to it a bunch over the course of this competition it doesn't hit my the way it did back when the official release came out.  (Was that really 10 years ago?  FUCK.)  I know what gg means when he says it's kind of underdeveloped, for instance the line that Trey comes up with at the 10:50 mark really is just too good to only play once, there definitely was an idea there that could have been expounded on in a major way.   

So I guess this Ghost is kinda overrated and ironically I'm one of the people who helped it achieve that status through a lot of fluffing over the years. 

But I will say that the major key jam that gets going around the 9 minute mark really is quite uplifting and the way Leo uses his synths throughout the jam is pretty sweet.

I also do like that for a 20+ minute jam it really doesn't linger on one theme for very long and keeps things moving.  If you listen to it back to back with the Riverport Gin there are quite a few similarities between the two, namely the funk factor and the circular trill thing that Trey does in both, but the Denver Ghost just takes less time to do it.   

In the end I had to go with the Ghost, it just has too much history in terms of my personal listening of the band, and it really does affect me emotionally more than the Riverport Gin.