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Fox News: At it again

Started by VDB, April 19, 2012, 11:24:51 PM

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rowjimmy

#165
You want to change a law?

Get the votes and change it.

Don't have the votes?

Stop wasting my fucking time and money and move the fuck on.

To suggest that this isn't entirely a GOP construct is either an insult to the intelligence of those to whom you are speaking or a demonstration of your own lack of perception.


I have friends who took short paychecks all Summer thanks to sequestration furloughs and now they are back at home wondering how they'll pay the bills if this doesn't end today.

VDB

Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 01, 2013, 05:33:30 PM
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on October 01, 2013, 02:26:25 PM
The shutdown that the GOP caused.

Faulty premise is faulty

Please explain. Because I'm tempted to assume that you're suggesting the less faulty premise would be to say it's Obama and the Democrats' fault because they wouldn't agree to cave on their own signature law after some wing nuts decided holding the government hostage is an appropriate legislative negotiating tactic. And I know you know better than that.  :wink:
Is this still Wombat?

sls.stormyrider

QuoteI campaigned in 2012 all over this country for months: 'Repeal and replace Obamacare.' That was not the mandate of the voters. If they wanted to repeal Obamacare, the 2012 election would have been probably significantly different. — Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona

to paraphrase another McCain quote - the president can veto any bill to overturn Obamacare. There aren't enough votes to override a veto. Let's move on
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

runawayjimbo

Quote from: Hicks on October 01, 2013, 06:50:47 PM
Huh?  Are you off your meds?

Of course laws can be change or amended, but using a government shutdown as the method to do so is reckless and probably won't produce the desired outcome anyway.

The House has passed 3 continuing resolutions, each time with compromises on the ACA (first defund, second delay the entire law 1 yr, third delay just individual mandate 1 yr and remove subsidies for Congress and their staffers). What has Obama or the Senate done to help avert the shutdown?

Quote from: rowjimmy on October 01, 2013, 07:23:32 PM
To suggest that this isn't entirely a GOP construct is either an insult to the intelligence of those to whom you are speaking or a demonstration of your own lack of perception.

Again, what have the Dems done to put a stop to this? You know, besides immediately voting down the bills the House has passed without debate?  Because my perception is lacking, apparently.

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on October 01, 2013, 07:31:14 PM
Please explain. Because I'm tempted to assume that you're suggesting the less faulty premise would be to say it's Obama and the Democrats' fault because they wouldn't agree to cave on their own signature law after some wing nuts decided holding the government hostage is an appropriate legislative negotiating tactic. And I know you know better than that.  :wink:

Why is it a black or white proposition? For the life of me I can't understand how anyone thinks this is an either or.

And as for the "holding gov't hostage" rhetoric, please don't forget that (a) Congress has not passed a budget since Obama's election (to which I'm sure I'll be met with "that's because the GOP opposes him on principle" which completely ignores the FY10 & 11 budgets when Dems controlled both chambers) and (b) this date was circled on the calendar on Jan 1st when they passed the fiscal cliff compromise. I just don't see how it can be considered hostage taking when NOBODY in DC has done their job in 9 months (and really in 4+ yrs).

Finally, as for the negotiating tactics, if you are buying a house that the seller wildly overprices, what do you do? You lowball the shit out of him and hope you can meet in the middle. So when the president and Senate majority leader comes out of the box saying unequivocally "we will not negotiate on this," what else do you expect the minority to do?

Quote from: slslbs on October 01, 2013, 08:09:38 PM
QuoteI campaigned in 2012 all over this country for months: 'Repeal and replace Obamacare.' That was not the mandate of the voters. If they wanted to repeal Obamacare, the 2012 election would have been probably significantly different. — Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona

to paraphrase another McCain quote - the president can veto any bill to overturn Obamacare. There aren't enough votes to override a veto. Let's move on

When John McCain and Peter King are portrayed as the voices of sanity, my bullshit meter goes crazy.


To make any of the above clear, I am not endorsing the GOPs strategy which I completely agree is bush league. I think Ted Cruz is a self-serving, delusional egomaniac who, if he becomes the GOP standard bearer, will continue the party's well documented demise. But every time I hear how this is solely the fault of a relatively small group of elected officials in one half of one branch of gov't I can't help but wonder what the fuck everyone is looking at. This is a failure of gov't, not a single political party (and certainly not a faction of that party).

You want to lay more of the blame with the GOP than Dems, I have no problem with that. But don't tell me that this lays solely at the feet of one party. Because that don't make no sense to me.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

Hicks

Ok but fuck all that, why should the Dems have to compromise on legislation that has already been signed into law?

It's over man, this was signed and done nearly four years ago. 

And even if they did for some reason have to compromise on a battle they already won, what exactly does delaying the enactment accomplish?

Wouldn't that just be more of the same kicking the can down the road and not actually dealing with the reality of trying to fix our healthcare system?

Are you saying that you are in favor of further delaying an attempt to fix the healthcare system that has already been put off for far too long?

Obama is finally taking a stand for something, wasn't his wishy washy tendency to constantly change positions and negotiate weakly part of your frustration with him?  (It sure as hell was for my part)

Or was that mere posturing to hide your true feelings of hatred toward all things Obama?
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

runawayjimbo

Quote from: Hicks on October 01, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
Ok but fuck all that, why should the Dems have to compromise on legislation that has already been signed into law?

It's over man, this was signed and done nearly four years ago. 

They're not, they are would be compromising on how to fund the gov't (for a couple more weeks until the next CR comes due in December). Congress is constitutionally appointed with the duty to appropriate funds, not the president. If they don't want to cut $1T in ACA funding, the Dems should put another plan on the table to cut that much (and I mean cut, not a $1T reduction in the growth of future spending). If the GOP rejects that, I will wholeheartedly join you in saying fuck those guys.

Quote from: Hicks on October 01, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
And even if they did for some reason have to compromise on a battle they already won, what exactly does delaying the enactment accomplish?

There have been plenty of reports of implementation problems. The WH itself has delayed the employer mandate for 1 year (hard to believe they would push a potentially job depressing regulation until after 2014 mid-terms, right?). The delay is to work out the kinks in an extraordinarily complex undertaking (which, BTW, was one of the major objections of the right).

Quote from: Hicks on October 01, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
Wouldn't that just be more of the same kicking the can down the road and not actually dealing with the reality of trying to fix our healthcare system?

Are you saying that you are in favor of further delaying an attempt to fix the healthcare system that has already been put off for far too long?

I don't believe you think the ACA is a way to fix the healthcare system. It is a continuation of our current busted ass system with the aim of covering more people. Now, we can argue the merits of that end, but to say it is anything other than the status quo is misleading at best.

Quote from: Hicks on October 01, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
Obama is finally taking a stand for something, wasn't his wishy washy tendency to constantly change positions and negotiate weakly part of your frustration with him?  (It sure as hell was for my part)

No, that's bvaz. My issue with him is solely related to policy failures.

Quote from: Hicks on October 01, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
Or was that mere posturing to hide your true feelings of hatred toward all things Obama?

Hicks, I've been through this before and I cannot believe I have to repeat myself but here goes: I don't give a fuck about posturing and I have absolutely zero feelings, hatred or otherwise, toward Obama. Do I think he's a shitty president? Of course. But that is derived completely from my reading of his policy failures and his inability to show leadership when it's most needed (and no, "taking a stand" by saying "give me what I want or I'm going home" is not leadership).

YMMV
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

VDB

Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 01, 2013, 09:57:12 PM
The House has passed 3 continuing resolutions, each time with compromises on the ACA (first defund, second delay the entire law 1 yr, third delay just individual mandate 1 yr and remove subsidies for Congress and their staffers). What has Obama or the Senate done to help avert the shutdown?

Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 01, 2013, 09:57:12 PM
Again, what have the Dems done to put a stop to this? You know, besides immediately voting down the bills the House has passed without debate?  Because my perception is lacking, apparently.

Why should Obama and his party be under any obligation to undo or compromise their own major legislative accomplishment (don't read that as a value judgment if you don't want) of recent years when they don't have to? It's not like we're talking about finding middle ground for the benefit of passing the ACA -- it's already been passed!

You could say, because otherwise the GOP will refuse to fund the government, and then the Dems would be complicit in that shutdown. Which, again, dignifies this as a negotiating tactic. So, is there a litmus test to determine what kind of principled stand is so precious as to justify grinding many of the everyday, unrelated functionings of national government to a halt and adversely affecting public-sector workers? You're talking about a situation where a party has only one house of Congress and can't overcome a White House veto -- is there a limit to when this kind of scorched-earth circumvention of the normal habits of lawmaking is appropriate? It's hard to take the GOP's word that this is such an exceptional situation as to require exceptional measures when they seem to so regularly wear noncooperation as a badge of honor (fueled by their simultaneous despising of Obama and government in general).

Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 01, 2013, 09:57:12 PM
So when the president and Senate majority leader comes out of the box saying unequivocally "we will not negotiate on this," what else do you expect the minority to do?

I don't know, admit that the "leverage" they think they still have at this point is actually a last-gasp act of desperation that will wreak lots of collateral damage while making themselves look like tantrum-throwing juveniles plainly uninterested in governing and move on?
Is this still Wombat?

rowjimmy

Don't forget the tax cuts for the rich that they want.

Even if they hadn't already come out and said that what they are really trying to do is defuse the ACA, you could see their play from space.


Hicks

You're right I don't think the ACA is the answer to our problems.

But I do think it is at the bare minimum an acknowledgement on the part of the government that the system is broken and that big changes are necessary.


Best case scenario is that it is a stepping stone to a real solution.

To that end, the sooner it is in place the closer we will be to single payer or whatever it is that will keep our aging population from breaking the back of our economy and country. 

Yes it will be messy, but if not now, when?
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

runawayjimbo

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on October 01, 2013, 10:36:10 PM
Why should Obama and his party be under any obligation to undo or compromise their own major legislative accomplishment (don't read that as a value judgment if you don't want) of recent years when they don't have to? It's not like we're talking about finding middle ground for the benefit of passing the ACA -- it's already been passed!

The idea that the GOP should stop opposing the ACA because it's passed is literally foreign to me. Should they stop trying to rollback the Patriot Act or end the prohibition on marijuana? (not that anyone is doing that)

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on October 01, 2013, 10:36:10 PM
You could say, because otherwise the GOP will refuse to fund the government, and then the Dems would be complicit in that shutdown. Which, again, dignifies this as a negotiating tactic.

How should the GOP extract spending concessions from the Dems (who view a change in CPI adjustment as an assault on the bedrock of our country)?

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on October 01, 2013, 10:36:10 PM
I don't know, admit that the "leverage" they think they still have at this point is actually a last-gasp act of desperation that will wreak lots of collateral damage while making themselves look like tantrum-throwing juveniles plainly uninterested in governing and move on?

As I said, I am not endorsing what is obviously a losing strategy. But now that they've stepped all over an issue that for once had popular support, how do we get out of it? Unless both sides are coming to the table in good faith, I can't ascribe greater blame to one any more than the other.

Quote from: V00D00BR3W on October 01, 2013, 10:36:10 PM
...that will wreak lots of collateral damage...

Don't worry, the Fed is always open. :wink:
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.


Hicks

Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

ytowndan

CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER!!!
Quote from: nab on July 27, 2007, 12:20:24 AM
You never drink alone when you have something good to listen to.