05/31 - PNC Bank Arts Center - Holmdel, NJ - Post-Show Discussion and Review

[fauxpaxfauxreal]

[rowjimmy]

Memorandum
TO: Young People Who Think 3.0 Phish is the Tits
FROM: Reality

Subject: Divided Sky

It has come to my attention that some people believe that Phish may have played a version of Divided Sky since 2009 that is above "passable". Please refrain from stating such foolishness until you have listened to one of many "proper" versions of said song. One exemplary performance worthy of note would be that of July the Second from the year, Nineteen Ninety-Four. It has excellent playing on the part of all four band members and energy enough to power Manhattan.

Sincerely,
Reality

[G. Augusto]

Hey!
That's the song and date when I got IT!
Does that happen anymore?

[fauxpaxfauxreal]

Hey!
That's the song and date when I got IT!
Does that happen anymore?

I felt "it" during the Asheville '09 ghost.  Not since in person.

[susep]

listening to the first set/Divided Sky.  wtf Trey? 

[susep]

overall meh.  show highlights: PYITE, After Midnight, Fire

[mistercharlie]

overall meh.  show highlights: PYITE, After Midnight, Fire

I would add RnR to that list.

[rowjimmy]

Show sucks.

Although Page does school us all during Maze...

[McGrupp]

Soooo... everything got deleted from this thread last night because of the forum update... we won't get the long thatfargone arguments back... but I still wanted to re-post what I said...

I know this is the 5/31 thread, but I'm going to give some of my thoughts on where phish is right now based on last night.

I totally understand thatfargone's point of view here. He loves this band, just like the rest of us. But loving a band doesn't mean you have to love everything they play (like a lot of people here do). Yes, having fun at a show is great - but let's be honest here, some of us judge a show based on how much fun it is, the energy, etc - and some of us judge a show based on the music (technically speaking that is). Of course, some of us base their judgments off of a mix of both sides.

I used to eat a lot of molly at phish shows (more so in 09, and in the summer '10). Not to get too into the details of my substance use at shows, but last night was one of the few shows where I was just on LSD, and to me it really affected the way I looked at Phish's playing. Let me preface this next thought by saying that I don't believe you need to be on drugs to enjoy a phish show. I believe that if you're being completely objective, you will know if a show is good or not if you're sober. Don't let your love of Phish and their music get in the way of making a judgment on whether or not they played well.

I was very very analytic of the show last night. I soaked in every single note they played, and was very judgmental (in both positive and negative ways). Back when I was getting drunk and eating molly at every show, I used to "fluff" a lot. I don't remember a lot of those shows, and I think I gave them unfairly positive reviews, even when the shows sucked. Since the new years run of '10/'11, I've done a lot of thinking about where this band is and how I feel about them. I've been trying to really understand the perspectives of the "haters" as well as the "fluffers".

Last night was my first show back since 1/1/11. I think that after all of my soul-searching regarding how I feel about where the band is right now, I was very very fair and objective in how I "judged" the show. I thought the first set was awesome, and the 2nd set was an absolute trainwreck (I'll get in to the deets on last night's show in the 6/1 thread).

If you love phish, that's awesome. We ALL love phish here. That's why thatfargone goes to shows - he is hopeful that they will improve, because he loves the band and expects a lot out of them. I feel the same way about Phish at this point - I have started to realize the perspectives of people like RJ and Aug and Thatfargone, not because I am joining the "fad" of hating, but more because I really trust these guys' opinions on Phish and think that they are, for the most part, correct in their opinions. Phish is not trying very hard right now. They're making money. I KNOW they care about the music, but I don't think the band takes it to heart as much anymore when they realize they play a shitty set.

I also KNOW that trey was frustrated with the 2nd set from 6/1 - I saw his frustration on his face, and heard it in his playing, and I think his frustration is also shown through forced segues (he's thinking, "let's move the fuck on and just start a new song!") In saying all of that, I think the band needs to get better at getting back on their feet after they butcher a jam, or if it's not flowing. 6/1, second set, they just could. not. get. their momentum back. When they walked off stage after the encore, Trey and Page fist-bumped and smiled, which said to me "Hey, people were rocking out tonight. Nice job fellas!"

But that's the problem, people shouldn't be rocking out when the set sucks. Even though the band might know they played a shitty set, I truly don't believe they care because they are seeing people eating the shit up, being really happy, and overall enjoying the show. Like joe said, this is the problem - it keeps the band happy and it doesn't force them to push boundaries. It just makes them complacent.

I don't think there's anything we can collectively do, though, as fans. No signs, no fan mail, none of that is going to work. We are at a time where the crowd is all drunk and mahl'd out and eating the shit up, and not listening to their playing (carefully), or noticing when the band loses momentum. I can't speak for a lot of people here (because I think most all of us are smarter than the "average" phan), but I honestly do believe that if we really want the band to progress, we can't just be fucked up and not listen and just vibe off the overall "energy" of the place.

The crowd was raging during piper and ghost from 6/1, but it was honestly some of the worst phish I've ever heard. That doesn't piss me off or make me feel shitty about phish fans, but it is very telling of the bands complacency. After all, they want "us" to be happy, and a lot of "us" (average fans in general), are HAPPY.

Don't get me wrong, I had fun last night. I didn't stand there with my arms crossed the entire time. I got the fuck down when I thought the band was playing well. However, I think that the people who get the fuck down when the band ISN'T playing well are part of the problem. Sure, have fun at a phish show, but all I want is for all the fans to be objective and realize when shit isn't GOOD musically. Maybe the band would take more of a hint that way... but like I said, I don't think there's a whole lot we can collectively do.

Phish fans have always been getting drunk at shows, and getting fucked up on molly, and not listening - BUT, it's okay for that to happen and rage the fuck out at a show when the band is playing WELL. It's not ok when the shit sucks, and the band can excuse themselves from a shitty set because the crowd seemed to enjoy it.

Ok, I feel like I'm sort of talking myself in circles, and I realize this was probably a tl;dr post, but hey, just wanted to share my thoughts.

I love this band, and as a result, I expect a lot out of them. All I ask from all of us fans is that we listen with some objectivity, as opposed to being fucked up and thinking a show was awesome because we had "fun" even though the band played a shitty set. We love phish, but that doesn't mean we have to love everything they do....

And that's my two cents, or 75 cents, rather...

carry on.

[thatfargone]

Eh, your post was the only thing worth reading anyhow.

But heres the cliffnotes version:

I love Phish but they suck now. MBW has too much time on his hands and Cactusfan cried about how i dont make him laugh. Oh yeah and scotty will keep
dancing no matter how much piss he gets in his ear.

:p

[Multibeast12]

I would like to say Trey pulled a Bill Buckner in that Divided Sky

[Gumbo72203]

Soooo... everything got deleted from this thread last night because of the forum update... we won't get the long thatfargone arguments back... but I still wanted to re-post what I said...

Not going to re-quote your huge thing, but you are absolutely 100% correct on the too-drunk/high-to-care thing with the majority of the crowd.  Its sad, because its turned Phish into what Trey has always wanted (since 2000): Dave Mathews Band shows.

Its the ultimate life: they get rich and enjoy themselves with ZERO responsibility or pressure to perform.  As long as they walk on-stage, plug in, and don't glaringly fuck up EVERYTHING, then they win.

I think part of the problem, besides the amount of drugs available, is the age/experience of fans at the shows.  Being mostly younger kids under the age of 30, the majority of the crowd didn't see a single pH show, and maybe a slew of PH shows.  So, they have nothing to compare it to.  That, and theres tons of kids getting into Phish now and seeing their first shows, which is great, but their perspectives are wayyyyy off-base in proportion to the whole picture.

The thing of it is, though, is that the band KNOWS this about their attendance demographics.  Look at the fury that the Vegas 98 Ghost caused, and that was at least closer to 10 minutes long!  But today, the people don't really seem to care; they're just at the show and thats all that matters to them, and Phish sees that, and it causes a disincentive to work at it.  I mean, it took Mike's birthday for them to deliver one of the biggest jams of 3.0.  Why can't that happen any old day? 

I mean, what happened to jammed Gumbos?  I'll tell you what happened: the fans don't know about jammed Gumbos!  I would bet that on any given night, at least 70% of the attendees at the show have no knowledge of 7/29/97, 11/14/97, 10/15/98, 12/13/99, or even 9/27/00.  7/22/03 would be the likely one that many more would know, simply because of its immediate availability on LivePhish.com.  6/14/00 maybe also, but the 2nd set is more noteworthy and visible amongst the mass collective consciousness. 

And especially since its "in" to LUVVVV Page, the short rag-time Gumbo unfortunately will probably never leave sight again; its a "staple" now, and a safety-blanket to get the crowd excited.  Its a gimmick, now, basically.  Hence why we get 0 and 1-show gaps of Suzy. 


The band knows what they need to do to make the crowd go "WOOO!!!!" and it makes them feel good when the crowd goes "WOOO!!!!".  The only thing we can hope for is for them to feel guilty and manipulative, the way they talk about Suzy in The Phish Book.  But, I highly doubt that will occur, given that they're old, they have no vested interest or need to further their career, and they've got a fat, reliable paycheck coming their way each night.