The Philosophy of Rand: Atlas Shrugged

[sophist]

So this book is filled with discussion about Metaphysics, Existentialism, Sexuality, Socialism, and Capitalism.  On a personal level I think Rand creates a good outlook on life.  The choices of each being should be left to that individual, and each individual is in charge of their own life.  The meaning of life is left to each being to create and I agree with this point.  I also agree that sexuality shouldn't be left to the government, and I never made the connection that Rand was in favor of civil rights for homosexuals.  This is actually impressed me (for a brief moment). 

The scope of the book deals with extreme economic systems and presents a valid argument against true socialism.  However, Rand fails to take into account that every economy of the world lies in some median of what she preaches against.  Further she paints every protagonist as a noble being who wants nothing but to exist on their own premise.  The premise being that true happiness can be found in understanding that "every man should only serve himself."  She repeats the theme that happiness can be found in materialism and that "social values" are the sign of a weak individual.  However, some capitalists can be evil and she fails to point this out. 

All people who seek help are labeled as "looters" and those looters are trapped in a perpetual cycle of mediocrity that eventually cause the downfall of the American economy.  I find this insight to be very shallow, and based off a stereotype of people who do abuse the system.  However, I think its silly to deny help to anyone based off of a general stereotype.   Some people do need help, and it's foolish to argue that every being is capable of the same output.  Everyone is different and therefore applying the same expectations is just silly in my opinion.  However, one line in the book did hit me hard.  One of the protagonists states that "only the dollar can save man."  The point being that bills must be paid in order to help man, and that the capitalist actually saves more lives than the idealist who yearns for economic equality.  I don't really agree with that point, and I say this because actions can exist outside of monetary means.   

Overall, I see Objectivism as a poor philosophical outlook on reality.  Life is more than capitalism and materialism.  If the meaning is money, then it is a one dimensional view of a complex world in which we inhabit.  On a personal level, I draw more satisfaction from enjoying the non monetary aspect of life.  I see rational beings as having no choice but to interact with each other and progress with each other.  It is the only way a society may grow and reach its apex. 

[ooeygooeypheeshstyx]

its time we move on from the old age 'civilization' and evolve into the divine creatures we were meant to be. from the moment we are born in a hospital we are being taught to be 'civilized' which stops the creative process. since everything is given to us or is told to us and since everyone is taught the same basic principles we have no choice but to slave our days away to the benefit of the machine. but the machine always fails and crumbles and a new one replaces it. thats why as a whole the human race needs to become aware and stop the inbreeding. but of course it won't happen. when Jesus spoke of an apocalypse i believe he was talking about the end of civilized man, that if we continue on the path we are on now we will end up destroying ourselves, stopping the plague. and therefore being given the right to eternal paradise.

lol thats just my opinion

[redrum]

new paug awards nominee.

...not sure the category yet tho  :wink:

[sophist]

its time we move on from the old age 'civilization' and evolve into the divine creatures we were meant to be. from the moment we are born in a hospital we are being taught to be 'civilized' which stops the creative process. since everything is given to us or is told to us and since everyone is taught the same basic principles we have no choice but to slave our days away to the benefit of the machine. but the machine always fails and crumbles and a new one replaces it. thats why as a whole the human race needs to become aware and stop the inbreeding. but of course it won't happen. when Jesus spoke of an apocalypse i believe he was talking about the end of civilized man, that if we continue on the path we are on now we will end up destroying ourselves, stopping the plague. and therefore being given the right to eternal paradise.

lol thats just my opinion

How is this post relevant to Rand? 

She was an atheist, and the main characters in Atlas Shrugged were also dependent of God.   They created the meaning for their life, which was a main point of the book. 

[ooeygooeypheeshstyx]

sorry i had to get it out somewhere..sorry to waste your time

[sophist]

No biggie.

[ooeygooeypheeshstyx]

what do you think about what i said?

[sophist]

For starters, I'm a firm proponent of existentialism, so I don't feel that man is a creature of God.  The actions of man occur from free will.  Which I feel makes us independent of God.  If God controlled man, I believe that "sin" (as defined by the bible) would cease to exist.  However, the reality is that rational beings can do whatever he/she may please.  Christian morality is a form of relativism that many people believe to be the best morality(I happen to disagree and feel that the mainstream Christian view to be hypocritical). 

Man can choose to believe in a deity, but that is a choice.   I have no personal feelings for people who choose religion as the meaning for how life should be lived.  I can understand that viewpoint and I can also understand anti-religious viewpoints. 

Now on to what you posted:

its time we move on from the old age 'civilization' and evolve into the divine creatures we were meant to be. from the moment we are born in a hospital we are being taught to be 'civilized' which stops the creative process.

If I'm reading this correctly, and I'm not sure if I am, but I disagree.  As a species, man has evolved to his near apex, and in some ways devolving now.  Especially in American culture where the focus continues to move away from intellectual enlightenment and more towards materialism.  I see science and philosophy (economic, political, meta-physical, abstract, etc) as the ultimate catalyst for society.  I agree with Francis Bacon's premise that science will be the great benefactor of man.  I know this to be true as the advances in medicine are the results of technological breakthroughs.  To put it simply, science breeds progress for society.  I think(I may be reading your comment wrong) that Rousseau was completely off base when he claimed that returning to the natural state of nature (i.e. nomadic living and being intellectually ignorant- like that of a fetus) is just silly.  Man is no longer rational when he reaches such a state, and has defeated his own purpose of existence.  That purpose is ambiguous until each rational being creates his/her own meaning of existence.  That meaning can be to serve a god, better society, hamper society, etc.   

since everything is given to us or is told to us and since everyone is taught the same basic principles we have no choice but to slave our days away to the benefit of the machine. but the machine always fails and crumbles and a new one replaces it. that's why as a whole the human race needs to become aware and stop the inbreeding.

I would argue with you that relativism exists in every culture and therefore applying one set of standards is a false premise which to judge man.  Further, I don't really understand what you mean by machine, is this a reference to Marx?  I also don't really know what you mean by inbreeding (I get that it isn't the literal definition). 

but of course it won't happen. when Jesus spoke of an apocalypse i believe he was talking about the end of civilized man, that if we continue on the path we are on now we will end up destroying ourselves, stopping the plague. and therefore being given the right to eternal paradise.

lol thats just my opinion

What path are you referring to exactly?  What is the plague that you are referring to? 

[Bobafett]

Man, I have been out of the intellectual circle too long.  I think kitchen work destroys brain cells anyway.  I read this in high school and wrote a paper on it in college, but i can't remember shit about it.  Phan, keep up with your studies(it looks like you are) and fish whenever possible.  Ooyyee's arguments sound very Platonic, kinda Allegory of the cave-ish...i guess the plague he is refering to is man's decline in natural existence, nomadic living, organic,....man....i'm so high....however, i have found it really hard, coming from a Southern Baptist backround, to pull all the religious ties out of my arguments and understanding of philosophy.  It seems I have to think through phil. ideology much more because of my "civilized" theological explanation for all I saw growing up.  Thanks for trying to spark some thoughts.  It worked for me at least!

[sophist]

Man, I have been out of the intellectual circle too long.  I think kitchen work destroys brain cells anyway.  I read this in high school and wrote a paper on it in college, but i can't remember shit about it.  Phan, keep up with your studies(it looks like you are) and fish whenever possible.  Ooyyee's arguments sound very Platonic, kinda Allegory of the cave-ish...i guess the plague he is refering to is man's decline in natural existence, nomadic living, organic,....man....i'm so high....however, i have found it really hard, coming from a Southern Baptist backround, to pull all the religious ties out of my arguments and understanding of philosophy.  It seems I have to think through phil. ideology much more because of my "civilized" theological explanation for all I saw growing up.  Thanks for trying to spark some thoughts.  It worked for me at least!

:lol: That caught me off guard.  Your post doesn't sound like it.  As for my studies, I actually read philosophy on my own accord(I just started Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival).  I'm a finance major with a focus on global economics, which does touch on some philosophical points (I just started a economics class that is about Third World economic growth theory and we've been debating the duty of man to care for his/her fellow beings).  Good stuff in my opinion.   

[ooeygooeypheeshstyx]

sorry. i come from way out of nowhere. all my ideas are just my observations. you seem well read and a 'real' intellect. im just kind of drifting in the abyss. most of my ideas are hard to put into words. i'm also a existenalist(woops on the spelling). but i know very little about a lot of things. but i like it. it means my views are un-polished. i mean the only books i have read so far are: Tibetan Book of the Dead, Animal Farm, Dharma Bums, assorted books by Ghandi, and Island by Aldous Huxely. i personally think that the whole system of civilization is old and dead. i'm not pleeing for a utopian civilization either. time has gone on for so long and nothing has advanced. many people see science as an advance in humanity. but we as humans only destroy the earth. we are leeches. we claim land from the earth as if we were given the right to. if you look at man's history. its most fatal flaw was the idea of ownership. land ownership can be attributed to all of man's modern problems. this is what i believe Jesus was telling his comrades way back when. that the Garden of Eden was earth, we were given the divine right to live on such a planet. but we took the apple instead, the apple being ownership. the first human error. and from that point we just multiplied like a bacteria. everything is relative, so to us all or achievements seem so great and new but they are useless in relativity to the universe. everything revolves in that infinite circle. and 'the machine' of government just gives us a reason for our pitiful existence. sooner or later this country will fall like Rome did. because society is a flaw. the whole concept is. but thats just me. maybe its all this dope im smoking. but i was like this when i was little to. but yah, sorry for sounding like the dumb naive 17year old i am.

[Hicks]

sorry. i come from way out of nowhere. all my ideas are just my observations. you seem well read and a 'real' intellect. im just kind of drifting in the abyss. most of my ideas are hard to put into words. i'm also a existenalist(woops on the spelling). but i know very little about a lot of things. but i like it. it means my views are un-polished. i mean the only books i have read so far are: Tibetan Book of the Dead, Animal Farm, Dharma Bums, assorted books by Ghandi, and Island by Aldous Huxely. i personally think that the whole system of civilization is old and dead. i'm not pleeing for a utopian civilization either. time has gone on for so long and nothing has advanced. many people see science as an advance in humanity. but we as humans only destroy the earth. we are leeches. we claim land from the earth as if we were given the right to. if you look at man's history. its most fatal flaw was the idea of ownership. land ownership can be attributed to all of man's modern problems. this is what i believe Jesus was telling his comrades way back when. that the Garden of Eden was earth, we were given the divine right to live on such a planet. but we took the apple instead, the apple being ownership. the first human error. and from that point we just multiplied like a bacteria. everything is relative, so to us all or achievements seem so great and new but they are useless in relativity to the universe. everything revolves in that infinite circle. and 'the machine' of government just gives us a reason for our pitiful existence. sooner or later this country will fall like Rome did. because society is a flaw. the whole concept is. but thats just me. maybe its all this dope im smoking. but i was like this when i was little to. but yah, sorry for sounding like the dumb naive 17year old i am.

Paragraphs are you friends.

[ooeygooeypheeshstyx]

paragraphs are for the Man

[rowjimmy]

Paragraphs would encourage me to read your posts.

[Hicks]

Paragraphs would encourage me to read your posts.

QFT