Changing or adding tags on FLAC files

[DoW]

This is not intended to start a debate, but rather a discussion.

First, anything I seed, I tag my files.  I really don't see any reason not too.  Sometimes I have absolutely no idea on a setlist (Club d'elf comes to mind).  Obviously I wouldn't tag every track as .

Like many, I like to stream my flacs through some playback mechanism that reads tags.  The problem comes in for files I download that don't have tags, I like to tag the files.
Now, this changes the file composition and after I change the tags, I can't seed to 100% or ever reseed that fileset.  Although I'm willing to make duplicates of a Phish fileset, I am not willing to do this for everything I download.

I'm downloading all the jam cruise sets right now and I find myself waiting until I seed to at least 200% and then stopping the torrent and tag the files.  I guess that is ok but there has to be a better way.  I don't like that once I change tags that I don't have any further opportunity to share the files.  The files don't change but the tagging portion of the ffp does.

anything I'm missing?  I won't literally do it, but is seeding ape self verifying files the answer?

[ytowndan]

Use foobar and get the live show tagger plugin.  It reads the text file in your show folder(s) and "tags" the files in your playlist.  It won't actually alter the files in any way, it'll just use your text files to label all the tracks inside foobar.  This way, you can have seemingly "tagged" files while still preserving the original filesets for future seeding.

[twatts]

This is not intended to start a debate, but rather a discussion.

First, anything I seed, I tag my files.  I really don't see any reason not too.  Sometimes I have absolutely no idea on a setlist (Club d'elf comes to mind).  Obviously I wouldn't tag every track as .

Like many, I like to stream my flacs through some playback mechanism that reads tags.  The problem comes in for files I download that don't have tags, I like to tag the files.
Now, this changes the file composition and after I change the tags, I can't seed to 100% or ever reseed that fileset.  Although I'm willing to make duplicates of a Phish fileset, I am not willing to do this for everything I download.

I'm downloading all the jam cruise sets right now and I find myself waiting until I seed to at least 200% and then stopping the torrent and tag the files.  I guess that is ok but there has to be a better way.  I don't like that once I change tags that I don't have any further opportunity to share the files.  The files don't change but the tagging portion of the ffp does.

anything I'm missing?  I won't literally do it, but is seeding ape self verifying files the answer?

No, you're not missing anything...  Torrent uses MD5 Hash to verify files are same.  Changing the Tags on a FLAC changes the MD5 Hash.  That is why they don't seed to 100%...   

Is there something like a m3u file that can keep the Tags separate from the FLACs, so there is no issue with the MD5 Hash in the future???

YMMV, but I don't think you should be worried about it.  Sure it sucks you can't seed to 100%, but then just Re-Seed...  I see no harm in that, and honestly, since so many Torrents on BT are buried, some of the shows could probably use a re-seed...  But that is a whole-nuther dead horse to beat...

Terry

[kellerb]

Use foobar and get the live show tagger plugin.  It reads the text file in your show folder(s) and "tags" the files in your playlist.  It won't actually alter the files in any way, it'll just use your text files to label all the tracks inside foobar.  This way, you can have seemingly "tagged" files while still preserving the original filesets for future seeding.

That's actually not true.  The tags are part of the file itself, not a separate thing.  Tagging doesn't change the musical data in the file, its just a part of the file that's attached.  The files also include stuff that says "this is flac data, it's a flac file" too.  When you change the tags on a file, the file itself is changed (but the musical data is not).

If you retag a bunch of files in foobar, you can see this process happening:  watch the folder, and you'll see foobar writing .tmp files while it changes all the files.

the exception is for filetypes that don't allow tagging (.wav, .shn).  In those cases, I think foobar saves a separate tag file or something

on the other hand, foobar's liveshow tagger is awesome, and I use it all the time.

[ytowndan]

Use foobar and get the live show tagger plugin.  It reads the text file in your show folder(s) and "tags" the files in your playlist.  It won't actually alter the files in any way, it'll just use your text files to label all the tracks inside foobar.  This way, you can have seemingly "tagged" files while still preserving the original filesets for future seeding.

That's actually not true.  The tags are part of the file itself, not a separate thing.  Tagging doesn't change the musical data in the file, its just a part of the file that's attached.  The files also include stuff that says "this is flac data, it's a flac file" too.  When you change the tags on a file, the file itself is changed (but the musical data is not).

If you retag a bunch of files in foobar, you can see this process happening:  watch the folder, and you'll see foobar writing .tmp files while it changes all the files.

the exception is for filetypes that don't allow tagging (.wav, .shn).  In those cases, I think foobar saves a separate tag file or something

on the other hand, foobar's liveshow tagger is awesome, and I use it all the time.

Yeah, I understand that tagging files adds to the existing data without changing the actual data related to the music itself.  I was referring to what I was told about the live show "tagger" - which, from what I was told, doesn't actually "tag" the files.  I've never used it, personally.  I was just going by what a couple different people in the hub have said about it.  From what I remember about the conversation, it doesn't add or change anything with the files themselves, instead, it adds a special .tag file in the folder that associates the info from the text file with the media files (and its directory), allowing a pseudo-tag to show up in your foobar playlist.   

That being said, I'll totally take your word for it.  I don't actually use it.  I guess I just misunderstood what was said about it. 

[kellerb]

Use foobar and get the live show tagger plugin.  It reads the text file in your show folder(s) and "tags" the files in your playlist.  It won't actually alter the files in any way, it'll just use your text files to label all the tracks inside foobar.  This way, you can have seemingly "tagged" files while still preserving the original filesets for future seeding.

That's actually not true.  The tags are part of the file itself, not a separate thing.  Tagging doesn't change the musical data in the file, its just a part of the file that's attached.  The files also include stuff that says "this is flac data, it's a flac file" too.  When you change the tags on a file, the file itself is changed (but the musical data is not).

If you retag a bunch of files in foobar, you can see this process happening:  watch the folder, and you'll see foobar writing .tmp files while it changes all the files.

the exception is for filetypes that don't allow tagging (.wav, .shn).  In those cases, I think foobar saves a separate tag file or something

on the other hand, foobar's liveshow tagger is awesome, and I use it all the time.

Yeah, I understand that tagging files adds to the existing data without changing the actual data related to the music itself.  I was referring to what I was told about the live show "tagger" - which, from what I was told, doesn't actually "tag" the files.  I've never used it, personally.  I was just going by what a couple different people in the hub have said about it.  From what I remember about the conversation, it doesn't add or change anything with the files themselves, instead, it adds a special .tag file in the folder that associates the info from the text file with the media files (and its directory), allowing a pseudo-tag to show up in your foobar playlist.   

That being said, I'll totally take your word for it.  I don't actually use it.  I guess I just misunderstood what was said about it.

Yeah, to clarify:  the liveshow tagger does change the files - it adds tags in the same way as any other tagging program.  There are actually a couple tagging "standards" for mp3s (which clarify what fields exist for tagging).  I believe the .tag files you're speaking of are for .shns, etc. - filetypes that do not natively accept tagging.

[ytowndan]

Use foobar and get the live show tagger plugin.  It reads the text file in your show folder(s) and "tags" the files in your playlist.  It won't actually alter the files in any way, it'll just use your text files to label all the tracks inside foobar.  This way, you can have seemingly "tagged" files while still preserving the original filesets for future seeding.

That's actually not true.  The tags are part of the file itself, not a separate thing.  Tagging doesn't change the musical data in the file, its just a part of the file that's attached.  The files also include stuff that says "this is flac data, it's a flac file" too.  When you change the tags on a file, the file itself is changed (but the musical data is not).

If you retag a bunch of files in foobar, you can see this process happening:  watch the folder, and you'll see foobar writing .tmp files while it changes all the files.

the exception is for filetypes that don't allow tagging (.wav, .shn).  In those cases, I think foobar saves a separate tag file or something

on the other hand, foobar's liveshow tagger is awesome, and I use it all the time.

Yeah, I understand that tagging files adds to the existing data without changing the actual data related to the music itself.  I was referring to what I was told about the live show "tagger" - which, from what I was told, doesn't actually "tag" the files.  I've never used it, personally.  I was just going by what a couple different people in the hub have said about it.  From what I remember about the conversation, it doesn't add or change anything with the files themselves, instead, it adds a special .tag file in the folder that associates the info from the text file with the media files (and its directory), allowing a pseudo-tag to show up in your foobar playlist.   

That being said, I'll totally take your word for it.  I don't actually use it.  I guess I just misunderstood what was said about it.

Yeah, to clarify:  the liveshow tagger does change the files - it adds tags in the same way as any other tagging program.  There are actually a couple tagging "standards" for mp3s (which clarify what fields exist for tagging).  I believe the .tag files you're speaking of are for .shns, etc. - filetypes that do not natively accept tagging.

Gotcha.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

Well, Brian, ignore my suggestion as it won't solve your problem.

[kellerb]

one thing I've never tried is tagging files, then later on un-tagging them and trying to reconnect to a torrent.  Not sure if the files would survive that process bit-perfect.  Now that I've thought of it, I'll probably it sometime.

[DoW]

yeah, I use foobar live show tagger religiously.  it does not solve the problem.

as far as just reseeding, I don't find that ideal either.  first, I like to try and avoid having multiple torrents of the same show on the tracker.
second, although you have not altered the music, the process to get there changes.

I figured there was no real solution.
for the most part, it really only affects bands not on the archive.  I don't think twice about "altering" a fileset on the LMA.  so, I suppose my solution is for sets not on the archive, either create a duplicate copy or just give up on the notion of ever reseeding the "original" source.

at the end of the day, I don't think there should be different filesets of the same music out there.  but I think it is too late for that.  I think everyone should just tag files the way I want them tagged and then there wouldn't be any problems.

[twatts]

yeah, I use foobar live show tagger religiously.  it does not solve the problem.

I need to start doing this...

as far as just reseeding, I don't find that ideal either.  first, I like to try and avoid having multiple torrents of the same show on the tracker.
second, although you have not altered the music, the process to get there changes.

I figured there was no real solution.

I don't think you should sweat it:

1) people re-seed anyways all the time, for various reasons, so multiple versions of the same Source are out there anyways.  Not that you shouldn't scrap your Originals, but you shouldn't feel weird about making changes, noting those changes in the Text, and re-seeding.   I think you are doing a service to the community, when you Upgrade something, even if its just the Tags...

2) The older Torrents on BT are Dead.  So they don't do anybody any good anyways.  Considering current trends, I really don't think any of those will come back to life any time soon, and from JMitch's experience, even if you tried, with authentic Originals, there is no guarantee it will come back... 

Things that would make it easier:

1) DB should upgrade the BT link everytime a Torrent is linked to the DB page, not just the first time.  Sending people to a dead Torrent after their DB search is pointless, especially if there is an Upgrade being re-seeded on BT.

2) BT should cycle out the dead Torrents.  That will eliminate multiple Torrents of the same Source.

But I don't foresee these changes being made... 

for the most part, it really only affects bands not on the archive.  I don't think twice about "altering" a fileset on the LMA.  so, I suppose my solution is for sets not on the archive, either create a duplicate copy or just give up on the notion of ever reseeding the "original" source.

I'm surprised by your statement here.  I would think that LMA would be untouchable - if you change something there, what I DLed earlier is now compromised and I would have to do it over again - my stuff now doesn't match the band's semi-official Archive.  Although, from a Seeding perspective, I see your point...

at the end of the day, I don't think there should be different filesets of the same music out there.  but I think it is too late for that.  I think everyone should just tag files the way I want them tagged and then there wouldn't be any problems.

LOL!  Actually, if people would stop using Tags, then there wouldn't be an issue.  It the adding, or altering, of those things that messes everyone up...   :evil:

YMMV...

Terry

[sls.stormyrider]

at the end of the day, I don't think there should be different filesets of the same music out there.  but I think it is too late for that.  I think everyone should just tag files the way I want them tagged and then there wouldn't be any problems.

perhaps you can put your system to the bt and LL wiki's  / faqs and make them mandatory.