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Started by sophist, August 06, 2009, 09:48:07 AM

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Hicks

Everyone who said GWB and Gore were basically the same in 2000, please KYS now.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

DoW

I was hoping we'd get a blame Bush commentary on the constitutioniality of a bill.
Music is meant to be heard
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rowjimmy

Quote from: Hicks on March 28, 2012, 12:57:36 PM
Everyone who said GWB and Gore were basically the same in 2000, please KYS now.

VDB

So, does the court have line-item authority? The fact that they're arguing over it suggests it's unclear. How could that be?

Also, how about the fact that a total wipeout would take with it some very popular provisions: insurance up to age 26, no denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions. It's been pointed out that the mandate is part of what would help pay for some other popular, but expensive, reforms. That leaves us with some tough decisions. How to get what we actually want without getting things we don't want. Too bad Americans (and their reps) aren't very good at tough decisions.
Is this still Wombat?

Hicks

Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 01:15:04 PM
I was hoping we'd get a blame Bush commentary on the constitutioniality of a bill.

Pretty sure he appointed 40% of the Justices that are striking it down.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

DoW

it just gets old.  That's all I'm saying.  But it's the reason why I should stay out of these threads to begin with.
I haven't even voiced where I stand on the issue.  It is something that impacts me greatly.  The whole blame Bush banter is old though.
Music is meant to be heard
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Hicks

Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 02:06:57 PM
it just gets old.  That's all I'm saying.  But it's the reason why I should stay out of these threads to begin with.
I haven't even voiced where I stand on the issue.  It is something that impacts me greatly.  The whole blame Bush banter is old though.

I agree it does get old!

Unfortunately there are long reaching effects of the colossal fuck up that was the Bush Admin, and doubly unfortunate is that we will be feeling the after effects for quite some time.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

runawayjimbo

Quote from: Hicks on March 28, 2012, 01:57:32 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 01:15:04 PM
I was hoping we'd get a blame Bush commentary on the constitutioniality of a bill.

Pretty sure he appointed 40% of the Justices that are striking it down.

Obama appointed 40% of the justices voting to uphold it (including the one who was actually arguing on behalf of the bumbling Solicitor General yesterday). Partisan politics goes both ways.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

VDB

Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 01:15:04 PM
I was hoping we'd get a blame Bush commentary on the constitutioniality of a bill.

It would be incongruous if there was objective agreement around questions of constitutionality. But the fact that even among SCOTUS justices there's no agreement confirms that there isn't, and the ideological perspective of those justices can determine the outcome of cases. And given that presidents get to nominate justices whose ideologies they want reflected on the court, that means people may lament the selection of justices by the guy who nominated them.
Is this still Wombat?

DoW

Quote from: Hicks on March 28, 2012, 02:09:44 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 02:06:57 PM
it just gets old.  That's all I'm saying.  But it's the reason why I should stay out of these threads to begin with.
I haven't even voiced where I stand on the issue.  It is something that impacts me greatly.  The whole blame Bush banter is old though.

I agree it does get old!

Unfortunately there are long reaching effects of the colossal fuck up that was the Bush Admin, and doubly unfortunate is that we will be feeling the after effects for quite some time.
first, I'm not even convinced the bill will be overturned, but regardless.....
blaming Bush for Obama and a democratic Congress forcing a bill through so quickly before properly legislating it is pretty weak.  if you don't want to get to the Supreme Court, they shouldn't have forced a bill through like they did.  it's so freaking weak to blame Bush for a president who is so clearly in over hsi head and can't cash in on any promise he made.  you blame Bush.  I blame the people that actually believed Obama was going to accomplish what he promised.

but our political views will never agree.  the funny thing is I think I am pretty much down the middle.  I happen to live in a state very much to the left which can make me appear to be ultra conservative.  if I lived in the south, people would probably consider me a liberal.

blame whomever you want to blame for this.  bush isn't the one who forced this particular bill through congress.  enjoy the rest of the discussion on the topic.  I'll know better than to chime in anymore.
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Hicks

Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 28, 2012, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: Hicks on March 28, 2012, 01:57:32 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 01:15:04 PM
I was hoping we'd get a blame Bush commentary on the constitutioniality of a bill.

Pretty sure he appointed 40% of the Justices that are striking it down.

Obama appointed 40% of the justices voting to uphold it (including the one who was actually arguing on behalf of the bumbling Solicitor General yesterday). Partisan politics goes both ways.

Can't argue with that I suppose, but at the same time I have to wonder if Obamacare is unconstitutional then what's the alternative?

Do we just continue with the status quo and by the time we are old no one but the megarich can afford decent healthcare?

Something's gotta give.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

VDB

Quote from: Hicks on March 28, 2012, 02:30:48 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on March 28, 2012, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: Hicks on March 28, 2012, 01:57:32 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 01:15:04 PM
I was hoping we'd get a blame Bush commentary on the constitutioniality of a bill.

Pretty sure he appointed 40% of the Justices that are striking it down.

Obama appointed 40% of the justices voting to uphold it (including the one who was actually arguing on behalf of the bumbling Solicitor General yesterday). Partisan politics goes both ways.

Can't argue with that I suppose, but at the same time I have to wonder if Obamacare is unconstitutional then what's the alternative?

Do we just continue with the status quo and by the time we are old no one but the megarich can afford decent healthcare?

Something's gotta give.

The alternatives are:

1. Single-payer
2. Get rich or die tryin'
Is this still Wombat?

sls.stormyrider

Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 02:28:46 PM
Quote from: Hicks on March 28, 2012, 02:09:44 PM
Quote from: bvaz on March 28, 2012, 02:06:57 PM
it just gets old.  That's all I'm saying.  But it's the reason why I should stay out of these threads to begin with.
I haven't even voiced where I stand on the issue.  It is something that impacts me greatly.  The whole blame Bush banter is old though.

I agree it does get old!

Unfortunately there are long reaching effects of the colossal fuck up that was the Bush Admin, and doubly unfortunate is that we will be feeling the after effects for quite some time.
first, I'm not even convinced the bill will be overturned, but regardless.....
blaming Bush for Obama and a democratic Congress forcing a bill through so quickly before properly legislating it is pretty weak.  if you don't want to get to the Supreme Court, they shouldn't have forced a bill through like they did.  blame whomever you want to blame for this.  bush isn't the one who forced this particular bill through congress.  enjoy the rest of the discussion on the topic.
I'll know better than to chime in anymore.

agreed - the problem was the political environment was (is) so toxic there seemed to be no opportunity to compromise. The GOP has made it their strategy to do whatever it takes to not cooperate and make life difficult for OB so that one of their own will be elected.
Examples are "health care will be his waterloo", the death panel lies they promoted (even thought the ethics panel was proposed by a member of the GOP).
In fact, much of what was passed was first proposed by Dole in the mid 90s  - including the individual mandate (and supported by Newt), and, we both live under this type of system in MA supported and signed by Mitt
The Dems could have done a much better job at this, but the GOP put them in a corner.

anyway, it looks like the US will remain the only "civilized" country that doesn't provide health care for all it's citizens.
Kind of strange when members of the GOP like to talk about "culture of life'.
Travesty

and, fwiw, I enjoy your posts here bvaz - hope you change your mind.
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

VDB

The law getting overturned would be bad for Obama politically, yes, in that it would allow the GOP to say "see, we told you so, this guy's outta control." But, to your points above, if he's smart Obama will have ample opportunity to neutralize a lot of the criticism by calling out Republicans who at one point supported, proposed or enacted very similar policies. If Obama were really shrewd he would try and turn this into a chance to paint Republicans as political opportunists who play games with people's healthcare by opposing things just for the sake of defeating him.

Besides, with Mitt as the nominee Obama will throw the Mass. model back in his face at every opportunity, and I think the ability to dodge and weave that comparison will be limited.
Is this still Wombat?

DoW

Mitt signed a bill in a democratic state.  I think Mitt gets too much credit as an individual for the health care law.
second, I hate the GOP's politics as much as the Dems.  It jsut plain sucks.  Bush forced through more than Obama ever could think of tryign to force through.
It just irritates me that Obama prided himself on bipartisanship and then forced this through and his supporters decide to blame past adminstrations instead of calling him out for not doing what he said he would do.
and fwiw, I consider potential supreme court justice nominations for when I vote for a president.  I'm not sure I can say that about most americans.

until we get true bipartisanship, this is what we can expect.  no comprimising and bills being forced through when one party has control.  I'm not even saying the republicans are right on this.  what I am saying is this should have been expected from day 1 the way it was handled.
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