ISO: trey w/ vermont youth orchestra 02/03/01? in troy Ny *FILLED*

[Shadowmaster]

Pretty sure mini-disc is lossy.

[phishbeatles]

Pretty sure mini-disc is lossy.

Not lossy, it records in 16 bit 44.1 khz, so it is at the very least cd quality. Not as good as 24bit but......

[Shadowmaster]

No, MiniDisc uses proprietary lossy compression, if I am not mistaken.

[ytowndan]

No, MiniDisc uses proprietary lossy compression, if I am not mistaken.

I don't know all the particulars about it, but you are not mistaken. 

We had quite a lengthy discussion about this in another thread, and the general consensus was that MD = lossy.   It was about a fall 97 source, iirc. 

[phishbeatles]

Yeah I don't know it wasn't my recording and to be honest I don't even think I have another show recorded on mindisc. According to wiki it says this below. And I'm guessing in 2001, 9 years after it was released that the linear PCM recording would have been an option.  But I don't know exactly when it was introduced:

MiniDisc was announced by Sony in September 1992 and released that November for sale in Japan and December for the USA and Europe.[1]  The music format was originally based exclusively on ATRAC audio data compression, but the option of linear PCM recording was ultimately introduced to attain CD-quality recordings. MiniDiscs were popular in Japan and Asia as a digital upgrade from cassette tapes, but were not as popular elsewhere.[2]

[twatts]

Pretty sure mini-disc is lossy.

"lossy"  MD doesn't record "lossy", rather it doesn't have the same range as CD.  MD, or Tape, or anything isn't by definition "lossy", just not as HQ.  It would be like saying CD is "lossy" as compared to DVDA. 

And yes, MD has now introduced HiMD, which does 16/44. 

Terry

[jasonsobel]

Here is the 2/4/01 show from Burlington.  I haven't yet transferred the 2/2/01 Troy, NY show - but it's at the top of my list for DATs to transfer.  Honest. :)

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=534644
http://db.etree.org/shn/107319


Vermont Youth Orchestra 
Troy Peters - Music Director and Conductor
Sunday, February 4, 2001
Flynn Theater
Flynn Center for the Performing Arts
Burlington, VT

source:
(FOB) Schoeps mk4 > kc5 > cmc6 > Sonosax SX-M2 > Sony TCD-D100 (@ 44.1 kHz)
recorded from the 15th row

transfer:
Tascam DA-20mkII > Marantz PMD-661 > SDHC card > usb 2.0 > pc > Samplitude SE v9.1.1 (volume adjustments, splices, fades, track splits) > FLAC v1.2.1 (Level 8)

recorded by Dave Flaschner
transferred by Jason Sobel (jasonsobel@gmail.com)
seeded April 26, 2010

note:
FLAC tags added with metaflac v1.2.1
Big thanks to Dave Flaschner for letting me borrow his master DATs!

Disc 1 - [63:08]
Set I
01 - [02:23] - introduction
02 - [02:33] - Senator Patrick Leahy talks
03 - [01:41] - tuning
04 - [01:15] - Troy Peters Speaks
05 - [10:10] - Samuel Barber - First Essay for Orchestra, Op. 12
Richard Strauss - Concerto No. 1 in E flat major for Horn and Orchestra, Op. 11
- 06 - [05:30] - Allegro
- 07 - [04:44] - Andante
- 08 - [08:31] - Rondo: Allegro
Ernie Stires - Chat Rooms
- 09 - [14:49] - The Blue Room
- 10 - [06:48] - The Green Room
- 11 - [04:43] - The Red Room

INTERMISSION

Disc 2 - [40:12]
Set II
01 - [01:04] - tuning
02 - [01:46] - Troy Peters Speaks
Samson Riffs
- 03 - [03:28] - Samson Riff (Ernie Stires)
- 04 - [02:30] - Samson Variation (Trey Anastasio)
- 05 - [03:45] - Samson Counterpoint (Troy Peters)
06 - [00:39] - tuning
07 - [00:46] - Troy Peters Speaks
08 - [06:33] - Maurice Ravel - Pavane pour une infante defunte
09 - [00:46] - tuning
10 - [01:39] - Troy Peters Speaks
11 - [14:24] - Trey Anastasio - Guyute
encore:
12 - [02:52] - Trey Anastasio - The Inlaw Josie Wales


notes:
Trey plays during "Chat Rooms", "Samson Riffs", and "The Inlaw Josie Wales".
The arrangement for "The Inlaw Josie Wales" was as follows:
Trey Anastasio, guitar
Adriane Post, violin
Jane Kittredge, violin
Anja Jokela, viola
Indigo Ruth-Davis, cello


splice notes:
There were a couple of minor issues on Dave's DATs.
These issues were fixed by splicing in the following source:
Schoeps CMC641 > OADE > DAP1
http://db.etree.org/shn/95715
The splice source was used for:
The last 10 seconds of "The Red Room".
and
The first 31 seconds of "The Inlaw Josie Wales".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shntool 3.0.4 len mode output:

    length     expanded size    cdr  WAVE problems  fmt   ratio  filename
     2:23.22          24.11 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4833  vyo2001-02-04d1t01.flac
     2:32.42          25.66 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4538  vyo2001-02-04d1t02.flac
     1:40.48          16.93 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3775  vyo2001-02-04d1t03.flac
     1:14.72          12.61 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4104  vyo2001-02-04d1t04.flac
    10:10.33         102.69 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3729  vyo2001-02-04d1t05.flac
     5:29.61          55.48 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3907  vyo2001-02-04d1t06.flac
     4:43.65          47.75 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3335  vyo2001-02-04d1t07.flac
     8:31.16          86.00 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3935  vyo2001-02-04d1t08.flac
    14:49.49         149.66 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3361  vyo2001-02-04d1t09.flac
     6:48.20          68.68 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3660  vyo2001-02-04d1t10.flac
     4:43.00          47.61 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4272  vyo2001-02-04d1t11.flac
     1:03.53          10.72 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4133  vyo2001-02-04d2t01.flac
     1:46.33          17.91 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4293  vyo2001-02-04d2t02.flac
     3:28.17          35.03 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3333  vyo2001-02-04d2t03.flac
     2:30.02          25.24 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3730  vyo2001-02-04d2t04.flac
     3:45.23          37.90 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4356  vyo2001-02-04d2t05.flac
     0:38.42           6.49 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3865  vyo2001-02-04d2t06.flac
     0:45.50           7.68 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3591  vyo2001-02-04d2t07.flac
     6:32.56          66.07 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3214  vyo2001-02-04d2t08.flac
     0:45.40           7.66 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3823  vyo2001-02-04d2t09.flac
     1:38.50          16.60 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4112  vyo2001-02-04d2t10.flac
    14:24.28         145.41 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4228  vyo2001-02-04d2t11.flac
     2:52.27          29.00 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3995  vyo2001-02-04d2t12.flac
   103:19.24        1042.90 MB                           0.3830  (23 files)

[Shadowmaster]

Pretty sure mini-disc is lossy.

"lossy"  MD doesn't record "lossy", rather it doesn't have the same range as CD.  MD, or Tape, or anything isn't by definition "lossy", just not as HQ.  It would be like saying CD is "lossy" as compared to DVDA. 

And yes, MD has now introduced HiMD, which does 16/44. 

Terry

MiniDisc uses a lossy compression system called Adaptive Transform Acoustic Coding (ATRAC) to achieve a compression ratio of roughly 1:5. If no compression was used, a MiniDisc could hold only 15 minutes of audio.

There have been a number of different versions of ATRAC used in MiniDiscs over the years — several by Sony and several by Sharp — and the audio loss with recent versions can only be noticed by die-hard audiophiles, although of course, loss increases with generations.

ATRAC is an audio coding system based on psychoacoustic principles. The input signal is divided into three subbands which are then transformed into the frequency domain using a variable block length. Transform coefficients are grouped into nonuniform bands to reflect the human auditory system, and then quantized on the basis of dynamic sensitivity and masking characteristics. ATRAC compresses compact disc audio to approximately 1/5 of the original data rate with virtually no loss in sound quality.


Edit: Obviously the key word here is 'virtually'
Edit2: I got this from http://www.minidisc.org/aes_atrac.html

[jasonsobel]

Pretty sure mini-disc is lossy.

"lossy"  MD doesn't record "lossy", rather it doesn't have the same range as CD.  MD, or Tape, or anything isn't by definition "lossy", just not as HQ.  It would be like saying CD is "lossy" as compared to DVDA. 

And yes, MD has now introduced HiMD, which does 16/44. 

Terry

MiniDisc uses a lossy compression system called Adaptive Transform Acoustic Coding (ATRAC) to achieve a compression ratio of roughly 1:5. If no compression was used, a MiniDisc could hold only 15 minutes of audio.

There have been a number of different versions of ATRAC used in MiniDiscs over the years — several by Sony and several by Sharp — and the audio loss with recent versions can only be noticed by die-hard audiophiles, although of course, loss increases with generations.

ATRAC is an audio coding system based on psychoacoustic principles. The input signal is divided into three subbands which are then transformed into the frequency domain using a variable block length. Transform coefficients are grouped into nonuniform bands to reflect the human auditory system, and then quantized on the basis of dynamic sensitivity and masking characteristics. ATRAC compresses compact disc audio to approximately 1/5 of the original data rate with virtually no loss in sound quality.


Edit: Obviously the key word here is 'virtually'
Edit2: I got this from http://www.minidisc.org/aes_atrac.html

Terry's point is that if the original recording was made on MD, then it's not "lossy" because there is no other recording that the MD recording is "less" then.  Sure, it's not as HQ as a LPCM WAV file, but it's all relative to what the starting point is.

FLAC is considered a "lossless" compression scheme, because you start with a WAV file, and when you decompress, you get the exact same WAV file.

If I make a recording at 24 bit / 96 kHz, and then I downsample to 44.1 kHz and dither to 16 bit.  I still have a WAV file, and I can compress to FLAC, but that 16 bit / 44.1 kHz file has still "lost" information that was on the original recording.  On the other hand, if the original recording was made at 16 bit / 44.1 kHz, then there is version of that recording with any more data than the 16/44.1 version.

All that said, yes, MD uses a compression scheme and does not record linear PCM data.

[DoW]

well, first thanks for the transfer jason, et al.

that's interesting how lossy and lossless are misused and misconceived.  I've never really thought about it before.

so does it make me a hypocrite that I would be accepting of a 16/44 source that was originally recorded at 24/96 (even though I colelct as many 24 bits as possible) but I am not accept of an mp3 320 that was recoreded at 16/44?

[taperwayne1]

Bump!
Would really love to get the 2/2/01 VYO!
Thanks!
Wayne

[jasonsobel]

Bump!
Would really love to get the 2/2/01 VYO!
Thanks!
Wayne

I'll transfer and seed the Schoeps DAT that I have from Dave next week.  It's only been a year and a half since I said that it was at the top of my pile  :wink:  but seriously, next week my wife and daughter will be out on the cape with my wife's family, so I'll have the evenings after work completely free.  I should be able to transfer/seed this, and hopefully several others as well

[taperwayne1]

Thanks Jason!

[jasonsobel]

it only took me approx. a year and a half since I first said that I'd transfer this DAT, and here it is:
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=547452
http://db.etree.org/shn/115556

great sound, great recording, but (as expected) very dynamic.  there is some loud clapping.



Vermont Youth Orchestra 
Troy Peters - Music Director and Conductor
Friday, February 2, 2001
Troy Savings Bank Music Hall
Troy, NY

source:
Schoeps mk41 > kcy > Schoeps VMS 02 IB > Tascam DA-P1 (@ 44.1 kHz)
recorded from the 1st row of the balcony

transfer:
Tascam DA-20mkII > Marantz PMD-661 > SDHC card > usb 2.0 > pc > Samplitude SE v9.1.1 (fades, track splits) > FLAC v1.2.1 (Level 8)

recorded by Peter Wroblewski
transferred by Jason Sobel (jasonsobel@gmail.com)
seeded August 9, 2011

note:
FLAC tags added with metaflac v1.2.1
Big thanks to Dave Flaschner for letting me borrow his DAT copy!

Disc 1 - [62:36]
Set I
01 - [01:57] - introduction
02 - [01:31] - tuning
03 - [01:20] - Troy Peters Speaks
04 - [10:41] - (Samuel Barber) First Essay for Orchestra, Op. 12
05 - [05:25] - (Richard Strauss) Concerto No. 1 in E flat major for Horn and Orchestra, Op. 11 - Allegro
06 - [04:43] - (Richard Strauss) Concerto No. 1 in E flat major for Horn and Orchestra, Op. 11 - Andante
07 - [09:07] - (Richard Strauss) Concerto No. 1 in E flat major for Horn and Orchestra, Op. 11 - Rondo: Allegro
08 - [15:08] - (Ernie Stires) Chat Rooms - The Blue Room
09 - [06:57] - (Ernie Stires) Chat Rooms - The Green Room
10 - [05:49] - (Ernie Stires) Chat Rooms - The Red Room

INTERMISSION

Disc 2 - [42:47]
Set II
01 - [00:58] - tuning
02 - [01:57] - Troy Peters Speaks
03 - [03:34] - (Ernie Stires) Samson Riffs - Samson Riff
04 - [02:25] - (Trey Anastasio) Samson Riffs - Samson Variation
05 - [03:59] - (Troy Peters) Samson Riffs - Samson Counterpoint
06 - [01:22] - tuning
07 - [00:54] - Troy Peters Speaks
08 - [06:40] - (Maurice Ravel) Pavane pour une infante defunte
09 - [00:50] - tuning
10 - [01:23] - Troy Peters Speaks
11 - [14:48] - (Trey Anastasio) Guyute
encore:
12 - [03:57] - (Trey Anastasio) The Inlaw Josie Wales

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
shntool 3.0.4 len mode output:

    length     expanded size    cdr  WAVE problems  fmt   ratio  filename
     1:56.43          19.61 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3774  vyo2001-02-02d1t01.flac
     1:30.48          15.25 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.2925  vyo2001-02-02d1t02.flac
     1:19.72          13.45 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3132  vyo2001-02-02d1t03.flac
    10:41.30         107.90 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3528  vyo2001-02-02d1t04.flac
     5:25.01          54.68 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3983  vyo2001-02-02d1t05.flac
     4:42.61          47.58 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3207  vyo2001-02-02d1t06.flac
     9:06.39          91.94 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4005  vyo2001-02-02d1t07.flac
    15:07.47         152.69 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.2672  vyo2001-02-02d1t08.flac
     6:56.66          70.13 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3099  vyo2001-02-02d1t09.flac
     5:48.54          58.66 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4649  vyo2001-02-02d1t10.flac
     0:58.30           9.82 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3190  vyo2001-02-02d2t01.flac
     1:56.59          19.65 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3565  vyo2001-02-02d2t02.flac
     3:34.04          36.01 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3812  vyo2001-02-02d2t03.flac
     2:24.63          24.37 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3992  vyo2001-02-02d2t04.flac
     3:58.56          40.16 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4209  vyo2001-02-02d2t05.flac
     1:22.31          13.86 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.2675  vyo2001-02-02d2t06.flac
     0:53.61           9.05 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3640  vyo2001-02-02d2t07.flac
     6:40.25          67.35 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3433  vyo2001-02-02d2t08.flac
     0:49.44           8.34 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3531  vyo2001-02-02d2t09.flac
     1:22.59          13.93 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4331  vyo2001-02-02d2t10.flac
    14:48.34         149.46 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.4572  vyo2001-02-02d2t11.flac
     3:56.55          39.83 MB  ---   --   ---xx   flac  0.3995  vyo2001-02-02d2t12.flac
   105:23.07        1063.72 MB                           0.3682  (22 files)

[DoW]

thanks jason