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Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)

Started by VDB, November 30, 2010, 10:11:04 AM

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Thrillhouse

I am out of descriptive words for how bad this is on multiple levels.
Quote from: bvaz on February 14, 2012, 02:59:09 PM
I can only imagine how much I would hate people at an event like 'roo.


Pebbles and marbles, like things on my mind...

gah

Quote from: sunrisevt on October 04, 2018, 01:40:25 PM
Motherfuckers.

Everyone got their torches & pitchforks ready?

Bro. I'm totally about to pop a collar and grab a tiki torch off my neighbors lawn over this one.

What fucking universe are we in right now?!?!  :shakehead:
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

jam>


Buffalo Budd

Everything is connected, because it's all being created by this one consciousness. And we are tiny reflections of the mind that is creating the universe.

sls.stormyrider

yep

Quotevote only for lawmakers who have the courage to demand a stop to it — now, right now, not just when they're leaving office or on their death beds.
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

gah

i liked this line

QuoteI guess the irony of being a great nation is the only power who can bring you down is yourself."

its a damn shame  :shakehead:
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

ytowndan

I'm glad to see he didn't fall into the false equivalency trap.  I'm so sick of reading arguments that either want to blame "both sides" directly, or that just kind of leave it implied with vague comments about how "extreme our politics have gotten." 

I could have done without the Cold War nostalgia, though.  He's certainly not wrong, a Big Bad Other can bring a people together, but it just hones our sense of tribalism, IMO. But it was a pretty solid piece all said and done.
Quote from: nab on July 27, 2007, 12:20:24 AM
You never drink alone when you have something good to listen to.

runawayjimbo

Quote from: ytowndan on October 05, 2018, 10:14:31 AM
I'm glad to see he didn't fall into the false equivalency trap.  I'm so sick of reading arguments that either want to blame "both sides" directly, or that just kind of leave it implied with vague comments about how "extreme our politics have gotten." 

I could have done without the Cold War nostalgia, though.  He's certainly not wrong, a Big Bad Other can bring a people together, but it just hones our sense of tribalism, IMO. But it was a pretty solid piece all said and done.

It's interesting to me that you invoke tribalism while in the previous statement decrying false equivalence. Don't those notions contradict each other?

Absolutely serious, non-trolling question: in your mind there is only one side that approached this entire process in bad faith? Forget equivalence, whataboutism, whatever you want to call it; are you saying that Democrats have approached the confirmation process in an honest, forthright manner and have considered the nomination wholly on its merits in its role as advise and consent?

Pretty sure I've said this before but for the record: I opposed his nomination originally. On the most important judicial issues likely to face the country over the next 30 yrs - privacy, criminal justice, executive power abuses - Kavanuagh is an absolute monster. But I have been appalled by the way Democrats have conducted themselves throughout the process. I'm still not exactly rooting for his confirmation, but I do very much believe the party needs to take a hard look at itself and its conduct and figure out how the hell they got here. An easy first step, IMO would be to run as fast as possible away from the Michael Avenatti's of the world.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

runawayjimbo

FYI Manchin yes but Murkowski no on cloture. How this plays out tomorrow is anybody's guess.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

sunrisevt

jimbo, you're making less sense than a goddamn nursery rhyme.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 05, 2018, 10:38:18 AMDon't those notions contradict each other?

No.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 05, 2018, 10:38:18 AM
Absolutely serious, non-trolling question: in your mind there is only one side that approached this entire process in bad faith? Forget equivalence, whataboutism, whatever you want to call it; are you saying that Democrats have approached the confirmation process in an honest, forthright manner and have considered the nomination wholly on its merits in its role as advise and consent?

Absolutely fucking yes.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 05, 2018, 10:38:18 AM
...Kavanuagh is an absolute monster. But

...and the merits of your argument evaporate.
Quote from: Eleanor MarsailI love you, daddy. Actually, I love all the people. Even the ones who I don't know their name.

gah

Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 05, 2018, 10:38:18 AM
Quote from: ytowndan on October 05, 2018, 10:14:31 AM
I'm glad to see he didn't fall into the false equivalency trap.  I'm so sick of reading arguments that either want to blame "both sides" directly, or that just kind of leave it implied with vague comments about how "extreme our politics have gotten." 

I could have done without the Cold War nostalgia, though.  He's certainly not wrong, a Big Bad Other can bring a people together, but it just hones our sense of tribalism, IMO. But it was a pretty solid piece all said and done.

It's interesting to me that you invoke tribalism while in the previous statement decrying false equivalence. Don't those notions contradict each other?

Absolutely serious, non-trolling question: in your mind there is only one side that approached this entire process in bad faith? Forget equivalence, whataboutism, whatever you want to call it; are you saying that Democrats have approached the confirmation process in an honest, forthright manner and have considered the nomination wholly on its merits in its role as advise and consent?

Pretty sure I've said this before but for the record: I opposed his nomination originally. On the most important judicial issues likely to face the country over the next 30 yrs - privacy, criminal justice, executive power abuses - Kavanuagh is an absolute monster. But I have been appalled by the way Democrats have conducted themselves throughout the process. I'm still not exactly rooting for his confirmation, but I do very much believe the party needs to take a hard look at itself and its conduct and figure out how the hell they got here. An easy first step, IMO would be to run as fast as possible away from the Michael Avenatti's of the world.

This is your opinion of course, but just out of curiosity, do you want to share what has been so appalling to you?
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

Hicks

Obviously, monsters deserve to be treated with decorum and respect.   
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

ytowndan

#2922
Quote from: runawayjimbo on October 05, 2018, 10:38:18 AM
Quote from: ytowndan on October 05, 2018, 10:14:31 AM
I'm glad to see he didn't fall into the false equivalency trap.  I'm so sick of reading arguments that either want to blame "both sides" directly, or that just kind of leave it implied with vague comments about how "extreme our politics have gotten." 

I could have done without the Cold War nostalgia, though.  He's certainly not wrong, a Big Bad Other can bring a people together, but it just hones our sense of tribalism, IMO. But it was a pretty solid piece all said and done.

It's interesting to me that you invoke tribalism while in the previous statement decrying false equivalence. Don't those notions contradict each other?

Absolutely serious, non-trolling question: in your mind there is only one side that approached this entire process in bad faith? Forget equivalence, whataboutism, whatever you want to call it; are you saying that Democrats have approached the confirmation process in an honest, forthright manner and have considered the nomination wholly on its merits in its role as advise and consent?

Pretty sure I've said this before but for the record: I opposed his nomination originally. On the most important judicial issues likely to face the country over the next 30 yrs - privacy, criminal justice, executive power abuses - Kavanuagh is an absolute monster. But I have been appalled by the way Democrats have conducted themselves throughout the process. I'm still not exactly rooting for his confirmation, but I do very much believe the party needs to take a hard look at itself and its conduct and figure out how the hell they got here. An easy first step, IMO would be to run as fast as possible away from the Michael Avenatti's of the world.

I honestly don't see what the contradiction is (which, I admit, could potentially be the problem lol). 

As for your Kavanaugh question, yes, I think the Democrats have acted appropriately. 

Also, I second GAH's request for elaboration on what you think the Dems have done that's so appalling. 
Quote from: nab on July 27, 2007, 12:20:24 AM
You never drink alone when you have something good to listen to.

runawayjimbo

Phone it in Friday, politics edition...

sunrise - dan was saying there is no equivalence between the two parties, but then (rightly IMO) implies tribalism prevents the two sides from seeing eye to eye. My point was that if you can't see that both sides have been acting in bad faith, that in itself is an admission of tribalism (which dan smartly notes in his follow up is part of the problem). I'm not asking for him or you or anyone to suggest that Dems have been "worse" than the GOP, I'm simply saying that an inability to see how both sides have been bad actors (more on how the Dems are below) is in itself an act of tribalism. As for the merits evaporating because I point out my baser instincts are experiencing some degree of enjoyment from what appears to be (although by no means in the bag given Murkowski's cloture vote) another Dem loss on this issue, I fully admit this is an emotional response to what I perceive bad actors on the Dem and the far more rational and mature response would be to remain steadfast in my opposition (what can I say, I am a flawed person and I am working on remaining a heartless, rational, unfeeling libertarian every day). I would note that if the Dems had attacked his judicial record on these grounds this would be very easy for me. But that's not nearly sexy enough in this day and age, so they presented an attack on his character. And although I was open to the notion that his character may be disqualifying if the accounts were true, and while I as was horrified as I'm sure you were watching Dr Ford's testimony, when I strip away that emotional response I am left with a disturbing but ultimately unknowable account of the events that in my estimation are not grounds to destroy a man, regardless of who he was nominated by.

gah - DiFi received the letter in July and did what with it? Why was it not referred to and investigated at that time? It would have been the best way to ensure a thorough investigation while honoring Ford's wish to remain anonymous. But instead, she kept it in her pocket as an insurance policy and revealed it when it seemed like his nomination was inevitable, ensuring maximum exposure and turning this into a circus. Can you really tell me you don't find that troubling? In addition, putting aside Ford's credible account, they have seized on the absolutely baseless ensuing accusations and elevated them to delay in an attempt to ruin a man and his family. I firmly believe they used Ford in the most vicious sense of the word. They don't care about justice for her, only for their own political power struggle. Regardless of whether you believe her or him (the general you, pretty sure I know what you believe), if you can't admit that Democrats have been the ones who thrust her into this position I really think you are lying to yourself. You can justify it however you want, but at the end of the day, they brought this on her, and I find that alone absolutely disgusting. I could list out other examples, but this is pretty much my central point.

Hicks - I was referring to his judicial philosophy as monstrous. You know, the whole reason we have confirmation hearings in the first place. Or used to anyway.

dan - like I said, I appreciate your willingness to at least admit that you may have blinders on the issue. That's all I'm asking, a little self-reflection on everyone's part (as I've pointed out before, Hicks post-Trump has been a model in this respect). I would in no way ever ask you or my other progressive friends to say that the GOP is the country's moral compass (lol). But more and more I see an unwillingness of people on both sides to even TRY to understand the other side's position. Politics as sport is to me the most destructive force in our culture right now; more than Trump, more than "Hollywood liberals" or "bible thumping conservatives" or whatever other group you want to throw out. We have lost our ability to empathize with those we disagree with. SAD!

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong or that I'm part of the problem.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

runawayjimbo

Collins still going but sure sounds like a yes. But she just dropped an amazing stat:  Merrick Garland ruled with Kavanaugh 96% of the time and only dissented once.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.