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Started by rowjimmy, March 19, 2008, 03:08:28 PM

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Hicks

Cmon now are you really trying to tell me that this:



And this:



Are "virtually identical" in regards to the Southern vote?

Even if we don't count Missouri it's a difference of +26 electoral votes for Clinton.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

sunrisevt

Quote from: runawayjimbo on November 15, 2012, 11:23:08 AM
Quote from: PIE-GUY on November 15, 2012, 08:15:25 AM
Everyone knows that before Nixon, the south went for Dems all the back to the Civil War. Reagan fully realized he could win the South by turning those Southern whites into "values voters."  That is why he launched his campaign in 1980 in philadelphia Miss. with a speech about states rights. He was, not so subtly, reaching out to that racist core. That has been the Repub strategy ever since.

If you don't think Jim Crowe laws in place recently enough that even my mother remembers using "whites-only" restrooms are still affecting the way people vote, you are naive.

I know the idea that Reagan was trying to appease the "racist core" by uttering that malicious phrase "states rights" is accepted doctrine on the left, but I really don't understand this. But while I had read what people on both sides have said about the speech and the implications of saying "states rights" given the history, I had never actually seen or read the speech. So I did. And I gotta say, I don't see anything even remotely racist in this speech. It wasn't even a speech focusing on states rights; he only said the words once and they were mentioned in the context of the failings of overarching federal bureaucracy, not as support for discrimination and certainly not as an appeal to a "racist core".

Look, I'm no Reagan-ite. For all of his worship in the GOP right now, people seem to forget that he raised taxes (twice), tripled the deficit, and oversaw a massive increase in federal spending and in the size and scope of gov't. But saying that he was appealing to Southern racists because he thought that the federal gov't had exceeded it's authority just doesn't add up to me. YMMV

As for the legacy of Jim Crowe and racism in the South, as I said earlier, I agree it influences some people's vote (and a diminishing number at that), I just don't believe it is THE reason why the South is so red, especially given the map has looked virtually the same with our first black president as it did in the 7 prior all white dude elections.

Reagan's political fortune grew enormously from his embrace of the Southern Strategy first employed by Nixon's presidential campaign--lots of systematically coded racial messaging, designed to exploit two generations of resentment among white Southerners over the successes of the Civil Rights movement. Whatever the details of his using the particular phrase "states' rights" in a particular speech, it's a well-documented historical fact. Reagan the man was was relatively moderate on social issues--he came out of Hollywood after all--but in his national political career he made huge overtures to social conservatives, regardless of whether their motivations were primarily race or religion. And for forty years, this strategy worked for the Republican party; demographics are making it less effective now.

I agree that race isn't the only factor motivating the Southern electorate. But as Hicks' comparison implies, and I think we all can agree, the 2008 and 2012 elections, not to mention the first term of our first black President, were marked by much greater racial animus--overt and ignorant, sly and evil, whatever--than other recent national campaigns. And I think it's impossible to talk sensibly about US politics without considering race.
Quote from: Eleanor MarsailI love you, daddy. Actually, I love all the people. Even the ones who I don't know their name.

runawayjimbo

Quote from: Hicks on November 15, 2012, 03:19:02 PM
Are "virtually identical" in regards to the Southern vote?

Even if we don't count Missouri it's a difference of +26 electoral votes for Clinton.

Sure, you could cherry pick the outlier and say there's a drastic difference, but that wouldn't really disprove my point. Take out Clinton, and Dems had a total of 54 EVs in 5 elections in the "slave states" (Carter=28, Dukakis=6 and Gore & Kerry=10 each); Obama outperformed this total winning 65 in 2008 and 52 this year. And Clinton's 2 elections were themselves untraditional given the two Southerns on the D ticket and the amount of support Perot drew, especially in '92.

Also:

Quotevir·tu·al·ly  (vûrch--l) adv.
1. In fact or to all purposes; practically: The city was virtually paralyzed by the transit strike.
2. Almost but not quite; nearly: "Virtually everyone gets a headache now and then"

Quote from: sunrisevt on November 16, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
Reagan's political fortune grew enormously from his embrace of the Southern Strategy first employed by Nixon's presidential campaign--lots of systematically coded racial messaging, designed to exploit two generations of resentment among white Southerners over the successes of the Civil Rights movement. Whatever the details of his using the particular phrase "states' rights" in a particular speech, it's a well-documented historical fact. Reagan the man was was relatively moderate on social issues--he came out of Hollywood after all--but in his national political career he made huge overtures to social conservatives, regardless of whether their motivations were primarily race or religion. And for forty years, this strategy worked for the Republican party; demographics are making it less effective now.

Well, my response was directed to the specific Neshoba County Fair speech, so that's what I was responding to. But I would take issue with saying Reagan's coded racism was "well-documented historical fact." IMO, that's not entirely accurate. I mean, I know that may be the case in the socialist, Saul Alinsky, redistribution-loving circles you run in, sunrise, but I think you'd find some conservative historians who would take issue with that statement. :wink:

Quote from: sunrisevt on November 16, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
I agree that race isn't the only factor motivating the Southern electorate. But as Hicks' comparison implies, and I think we all can agree, the 2008 and 2012 elections, not to mention the first term of our first black President, were marked by much greater racial animus--overt and ignorant, sly and evil, whatever--than other recent national campaigns. And I think it's impossible to talk sensibly about US politics without considering race.

I agree with this 100%. Not the middle so much, but the first and last sentences are dead on.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

PIE-GUY

I've been coming to where I am from the get go
Find that I can groove with the beat when I let go
So put your worries on hold
Get up and groove with the rhythm in your soul

mbw

if you actually order papa johns pizza there's no hope for you anyway.

Hicks

#785
Quote from: runawayjimbo on November 16, 2012, 10:28:02 PM

Also:

Quotevir·tu·al·ly  (vûrch--l) adv.
1. In fact or to all purposes; practically: The city was virtually paralyzed by the transit strike.
2. Almost but not quite; nearly: "Virtually everyone gets a headache now and then"
Quoting dictionary definitions now are we?

You're still pretty butthurt about the cognitive dissonance that the Obama win created in your psyche aren't you?

In any event if two out of eight (1992 and 1996) is 25% that ain't "outliers". 

Also, Dukakis lol, dude couldn't even win places like California and Connecticut so of course he wasn't gonna take the South.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

runawayjimbo

Quote from: Hicks on November 18, 2012, 01:09:22 AM
You're still pretty butthurt about the cognitive dissonance that the Obama win created in your psyche aren't you?

Dude, you've been reading too much Daily Kos.

Here's something that'll blow your "I vote one-party no matter what" mind, Hicks: I wanted Obama to win. You probably won't believe that and that's fine, but I am being 100% straight with you when I tell you I am glad he won. Sure, in the short term I have to deal with the collective smugness of the left, but that's a relatively minor annoyance. In the long term, Obama's re-election will be far better for the principles I believe in than a Romney win would have been. I mean, of course I did want to see ObamaCare repealed and serious entitlement reform and spending reductions enacted, but as I said (quite repeatedly) Romney was not going to do any of those things anyway. But 4 more yrs of recession/stagflation and unrestrained spending might just be enough to make people realize that Keynesian stimulus and unsustainable fiscal policy is no way to run a country.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

sophist

Can't we all just boof a sheet and beat up some midget hookers now that the election is over? 
Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

sunrisevt

#788
Quote from: runawayjimbo on November 16, 2012, 10:28:02 PM
Quote from: sunrisevt on November 16, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
Reagan's political fortune grew enormously from his embrace of the Southern Strategy first employed by Nixon's presidential campaign--lots of systematically coded racial messaging, designed to exploit two generations of resentment among white Southerners over the successes of the Civil Rights movement. Whatever the details of his using the particular phrase "states' rights" in a particular speech, it's a well-documented historical fact. Reagan the man was was relatively moderate on social issues--he came out of Hollywood after all--but in his national political career he made huge overtures to social conservatives, regardless of whether their motivations were primarily race or religion. And for forty years, this strategy worked for the Republican party; demographics are making it less effective now.

Well, my response was directed to the specific Neshoba County Fair speech, so that's what I was responding to. But I would take issue with saying Reagan's coded racism was "well-documented historical fact." IMO, that's not entirely accurate. I mean, I know that may be the case in the socialist, Saul Alinsky, redistribution-loving circles you run in, sunrise, but I think you'd find some conservative historians who would take issue with that statement. :wink:

Yeah, I can't wait to hear how they they take issue with one of their patron saints, Lee Atwater, fucking explaining it back in 1981:

http://front.moveon.org/just-released-audio-of-former-reaganbush-advisor-lays-out-how-gop-planned-to-win-the-votes-of-racists/

Brought to you k/o the filthy liberal den of MoveOn. Also true and relevant.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on November 16, 2012, 10:28:02 PM
Quote from: sunrisevt on November 16, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
I agree that race isn't the only factor motivating the Southern electorate. But as Hicks' comparison implies, and I think we all can agree, the 2008 and 2012 elections, not to mention the first term of our first black President, were marked by much greater racial animus--overt and ignorant, sly and evil, whatever--than other recent national campaigns. And I think it's impossible to talk sensibly about US politics without considering race.

I agree with this 100%. Not the middle so much, but the first and last sentences are dead on.

I take that to mean you agree with me 100%, as you should.
Quote from: Eleanor MarsailI love you, daddy. Actually, I love all the people. Even the ones who I don't know their name.

nab

This is a new map to me tonight:





Broad descriptions published by Bloomberg can be found here (too long to copy):

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-29/real-u-s-map-a-country-of-regions-part-1-commentary-by-colin-woodard.html

And the long form can be found in the book, published last year, previewed here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sb40EosBr90C&printsec=frontcover&dq=American+Nations:+A+History+of+the+Eleven+Rival+Regional+Cultures+of+North+America&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DQ2rUIevA6muigKA44HwDA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA


The descriptions of regions in the Bloomberg article seem a little simplistic, so I'm gonna put the book on my reading list.

However, at first glance, I think that the map provides an interesting picture of the American cultural landscape, even if it still does so at the expense of still marginalizing individual cultural expression, although at a smaller scale, than red state/blue state comparisons.   

Has anyone else encountered this map and run into any fine grained criticism of the map/book?  I'd be interested in hearing any counterpoints.  Initial google searches haven't produced any meaningful criticism, but I may just be sucking at google tonight.   

runawayjimbo

Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

Undermind

#791
Trey at Darien Music Center on 8/13/09 while paying respect to Les Paul
Quote...and hopefully we'll be playing well into our nineties and hopefully you guys will be there too


Phish Video Collection Blog

Hicks

Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

rowjimmy


VDB

Ha! Last time they invite him on!
Is this still Wombat?