Author Topic: The Political Pot Thread  (Read 19177 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline whatapiper

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 7272
  • Karma: 640
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't hide from yourself not at all
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2012, 01:23:16 AM »
With little or no real opposition it appears eminent that I 502 will pass here in WA.  I've been reading through the initiative and it's definitely written in a way that all signs point to the bottom line.  Where the user benefits is with the dizzying array of boutiques that will no doubt be popping up.  Use in public and growing for personal use are all still illegal.   Growing for sale however is going to be relatively easy to do and will appear inexpensive with an annual license fee of only $1000.  This is all written to maximize tax revenue so producers, processors and retailers are going to have a field day when this starts.   I wonder how many man caves around the state are going to be replaced with grow op start ups. 
We are all and we are all we are
Far flung bits of Sun and bits of Stars
From the  ocean from the land from the
beginning to end
Backwards forwards back toward
we belong

Offline Undermind

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 11003
  • Karma: 1269
  • Gender: Male
    • Phish Video Collection
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2012, 09:15:14 AM »
Trey at Darien Music Center on 8/13/09 while paying respect to Les Paul
Quote
...and hopefully we'll be playing well into our nineties and hopefully you guys will be there too

Phish Video Collection Blog

Offline whatapiper

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 7272
  • Karma: 640
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't hide from yourself not at all
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2012, 10:53:54 AM »
I'm going to be traveling through Amsterdam next year.  Pretty pumped!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/weed-pass-tourist-ban-on-marijuana-cafes-ditched-20121031-28inh.html#ixzz2AqGVjJCK

Cafe would be nice but the regulations would be pretty strict here, supposedly you will not even be able to smell or touch anything outside of it's packaging when in an outlet. 
We are all and we are all we are
Far flung bits of Sun and bits of Stars
From the  ocean from the land from the
beginning to end
Backwards forwards back toward
we belong

Offline emayPhishyCO

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 9591
  • Karma: 310
  • Gender: Male
  • The Walrus was Page
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2012, 11:01:58 AM »
I'm going to be traveling through Amsterdam next year.  Pretty pumped!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/weed-pass-tourist-ban-on-marijuana-cafes-ditched-20121031-28inh.html#ixzz2AqGVjJCK

Cafe would be nice but the regulations would be pretty strict here, supposedly you will not even be able to smell or touch anything outside of it's packaging when in an outlet.

interesting.
But they are still going to have dispensaries operating like they normally would, for those with medical cards?

Offline whatapiper

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 7272
  • Karma: 640
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't hide from yourself not at all
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2012, 11:09:28 AM »
I'm going to be traveling through Amsterdam next year.  Pretty pumped!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/weed-pass-tourist-ban-on-marijuana-cafes-ditched-20121031-28inh.html#ixzz2AqGVjJCK

Cafe would be nice but the regulations would be pretty strict here, supposedly you will not even be able to smell or touch anything outside of it's packaging when in an outlet.

interesting.
But they are still going to have dispensaries operating like they normally would, for those with medical cards?

Dispensaries will go on as normal, the shops selling weed for recreation can only sell products relating to or containing marijuana, basically a head shop that now sells weed. 

There is also a clause preventing single operations from being producers, processors and retailers.  Apparently each entity needs to be separate from one another.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 11:11:21 AM by whatapiper »
We are all and we are all we are
Far flung bits of Sun and bits of Stars
From the  ocean from the land from the
beginning to end
Backwards forwards back toward
we belong

Offline PIE-GUY

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 17011
  • Karma: 1233
  • Gender: Male
  • Something's happening.
    • My Shows
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2012, 11:11:56 AM »
I'm going to be traveling through Amsterdam next year.  Pretty pumped!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/weed-pass-tourist-ban-on-marijuana-cafes-ditched-20121031-28inh.html#ixzz2AqGVjJCK

Cafe would be nice but the regulations would be pretty strict here, supposedly you will not even be able to smell or touch anything outside of it's packaging when in an outlet.

interesting.
But they are still going to have dispensaries operating like they normally would, for those with medical cards?

Dispensaries will go on as normal, the shops selling weed for recreation can only sell products relating to or containing marijuana, basically a head shop that now sells weed. 

There is also a clause preventing single operations from being producers, processors and retailers.  Apparently each entity needs to be separate from one another.

That means widespread availability of quality edibles. That makes me happy!
I've been coming to where I am from the get go
Find that I can groove with the beat when I let go
So put your worries on hold
Get up and groove with the rhythm in your soul

Offline emayPhishyCO

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 9591
  • Karma: 310
  • Gender: Male
  • The Walrus was Page
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2012, 11:21:10 AM »
I'm going to be traveling through Amsterdam next year.  Pretty pumped!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/weed-pass-tourist-ban-on-marijuana-cafes-ditched-20121031-28inh.html#ixzz2AqGVjJCK

Cafe would be nice but the regulations would be pretty strict here, supposedly you will not even be able to smell or touch anything outside of it's packaging when in an outlet.

interesting.
But they are still going to have dispensaries operating like they normally would, for those with medical cards?

Dispensaries will go on as normal, the shops selling weed for recreation can only sell products relating to or containing marijuana, basically a head shop that now sells weed. 

There is also a clause preventing single operations from being producers, processors and retailers.  Apparently each entity needs to be separate from one another.

That means widespread availability of quality edibles. That makes me happy!

Nice, sounds like a solid plan they got for the legalization of recreational use.
So do you think the quality of the recreational herb will be worse than that of the Medical, or pretty much the same? And, do you think it will be harder to get a medical card now that there is these outlet stores that just sell strictly for recreational?

Offline whatapiper

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 7272
  • Karma: 640
  • Gender: Male
  • You can't hide from yourself not at all
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2012, 02:27:01 AM »
I'm going to be traveling through Amsterdam next year.  Pretty pumped!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/weed-pass-tourist-ban-on-marijuana-cafes-ditched-20121031-28inh.html#ixzz2AqGVjJCK

Cafe would be nice but the regulations would be pretty strict here, supposedly you will not even be able to smell or touch anything outside of it's packaging when in an outlet.

interesting.
But they are still going to have dispensaries operating like they normally would, for those with medical cards?

Dispensaries will go on as normal, the shops selling weed for recreation can only sell products relating to or containing marijuana, basically a head shop that now sells weed. 

There is also a clause preventing single operations from being producers, processors and retailers.  Apparently each entity needs to be separate from one another.

That means widespread availability of quality edibles. That makes me happy!

Nice, sounds like a solid plan they got for the legalization of recreational use.
So do you think the quality of the recreational herb will be worse than that of the Medical, or pretty much the same? And, do you think it will be harder to get a medical card now that there is these outlet stores that just sell strictly for recreational?

I've been curious about the quality issues and most likely stores will cater to their demographic.  Hopefully there will be more competition with the potential for skilled growers to come out of hiding or relocate to our great state to get in on the action.  I bet quality is the same if not better at certain locations than what is offered now at dispensaries.  I imagine they would make it easier to get a card since anyone could walk to their neighborhood store without getting other help they may need. 

Reading a little deeper the initiative states producers would be taxed at 25% for every wholesale transaction, couple that with a $1000 annual fee and $250 application fee and that may discourage amateurs from flooding the market with shitty product.   
We are all and we are all we are
Far flung bits of Sun and bits of Stars
From the  ocean from the land from the
beginning to end
Backwards forwards back toward
we belong

Offline VDB

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 7794
  • Karma: 276
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2012, 08:49:52 AM »
I'm going to be traveling through Amsterdam next year.  Pretty pumped!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/weed-pass-tourist-ban-on-marijuana-cafes-ditched-20121031-28inh.html#ixzz2AqGVjJCK

Cafe would be nice but the regulations would be pretty strict here, supposedly you will not even be able to smell or touch anything outside of it's packaging when in an outlet.

interesting.
But they are still going to have dispensaries operating like they normally would, for those with medical cards?

Dispensaries will go on as normal, the shops selling weed for recreation can only sell products relating to or containing marijuana, basically a head shop that now sells weed. 

There is also a clause preventing single operations from being producers, processors and retailers.  Apparently each entity needs to be separate from one another.

That means widespread availability of quality edibles. That makes me happy!

Nice, sounds like a solid plan they got for the legalization of recreational use.
So do you think the quality of the recreational herb will be worse than that of the Medical, or pretty much the same? And, do you think it will be harder to get a medical card now that there is these outlet stores that just sell strictly for recreational?

I've been curious about the quality issues and most likely stores will cater to their demographic.  Hopefully there will be more competition with the potential for skilled growers to come out of hiding or relocate to our great state to get in on the action.  I bet quality is the same if not better at certain locations than what is offered now at dispensaries.  I imagine they would make it easier to get a card since anyone could walk to their neighborhood store without getting other help they may need. 

Reading a little deeper the initiative states producers would be taxed at 25% for every wholesale transaction, couple that with a $1000 annual fee and $250 application fee and that may discourage amateurs from flooding the market with shitty product.

For fuck's sake.  :shakehead:

I know the revenue aspect is part of what makes this palatable to some people, but I hate the dichotomous play of a) recognizing that marijuana is not that harmful and responsible, autonomous adults should have the liberty of using it if they want, while b) saying that marijuana is evil and dangerous and should be taxed and regulated more severely than just about any other consumer good.
there is no explanation
it's all inside your head


de gustibus non disputandum

Offline emayPhishyCO

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 9591
  • Karma: 310
  • Gender: Male
  • The Walrus was Page
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2012, 09:33:08 AM »
I'm going to be traveling through Amsterdam next year.  Pretty pumped!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/weed-pass-tourist-ban-on-marijuana-cafes-ditched-20121031-28inh.html#ixzz2AqGVjJCK

Cafe would be nice but the regulations would be pretty strict here, supposedly you will not even be able to smell or touch anything outside of it's packaging when in an outlet.

interesting.
But they are still going to have dispensaries operating like they normally would, for those with medical cards?

Dispensaries will go on as normal, the shops selling weed for recreation can only sell products relating to or containing marijuana, basically a head shop that now sells weed. 

There is also a clause preventing single operations from being producers, processors and retailers.  Apparently each entity needs to be separate from one another.

That means widespread availability of quality edibles. That makes me happy!

Nice, sounds like a solid plan they got for the legalization of recreational use.
So do you think the quality of the recreational herb will be worse than that of the Medical, or pretty much the same? And, do you think it will be harder to get a medical card now that there is these outlet stores that just sell strictly for recreational?

I've been curious about the quality issues and most likely stores will cater to their demographic.  Hopefully there will be more competition with the potential for skilled growers to come out of hiding or relocate to our great state to get in on the action.  I bet quality is the same if not better at certain locations than what is offered now at dispensaries.  I imagine they would make it easier to get a card since anyone could walk to their neighborhood store without getting other help they may need. 

Reading a little deeper the initiative states producers would be taxed at 25% for every wholesale transaction, couple that with a $1000 annual fee and $250 application fee and that may discourage amateurs from flooding the market with shitty product.

For fuck's sake.  :shakehead:

I know the revenue aspect is part of what makes this palatable to some people, but I hate the dichotomous play of a) recognizing that marijuana is not that harmful and responsible, autonomous adults should have the liberty of using it if they want, while b) saying that marijuana is evil and dangerous and should be taxed and regulated more severely than just about any other consumer good.

Thanks for the insight whatapiper!
That does seem pretty steep for taxing. 1/4 of your sale goes to taxes, damn! the other 1/4 prob goes to electricity to run the op and on top of that the fertilizer, soil, etc. to keep them top notch can be pricey. I gotta get over there and start sellin some solar to these grow opts! Even though I am sure a good bit prob do run their greenhouses on solar. Seems like a good market, easier to grow and run lights/fans/humidifiers when theres no bill!

Offline runawayjimbo

  • Wrote the Book
  • **
  • Posts: 4572
  • Karma: 180
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2012, 10:38:31 PM »
I know the revenue aspect is part of what makes this palatable to some people, but I hate the dichotomous play of a) recognizing that marijuana is not that harmful and responsible, autonomous adults should have the liberty of using it if they want, while b) saying that marijuana is evil and dangerous and should be taxed and regulated more severely than just about any other consumer good.

I don't know, is that really any better or worse than other "immoral" goods. The excise tax on cigarettes in NY is like $5/pack or about 50% of the cost of a pack and something like half of NH's revenue comes from cigarette taxes. WA privatized their liquor stores last summer and imposed something like a 25% increase in taxes and fees iirc. And here in PA they charge casinos 55% of all slot proceeds which led to more gambling revenue here than even NV (for fuck's sake). So while I agree with you incredulity, I don't know that this is much different than the way any other state would handle it (especially during budget crises).

And of course, this tax will be directly passed on to the consumer (as all producer taxes are). But here's the key: eliminating prohibition and the risk premium paid on a black market product would still make the legalized and taxed version cheaper than it is now. Production costs decline will decline due to a legitimate market, economies of scale, specialization, etc. All of that leads to a more affordable good (who knew? oh wait...)

A little thought experiment: let's use whatapiper's figures - 25% wholesale tax and a $1000 annual fee (I'll ignore the $250 one time application fee). I'm gonna pull the rest of the numbers out of my ass to make the point (aren't you in marketing though? you should know this shit). Now, I have no idea what the whole cost per pound or the distribution costs or what a reasonable markup would be, but below is a back of the envelope sketch that shows all in the cost per ounce is still about $100 discount from what I would pay for an ounce now (allegedly :wink: ). I mean, the production costs per pound would have to be $1750 to what an ounce of nug costs in Philly now, and that's assuming my completely made up assumptions are in the ballpark (again, I'd argue that they'd be lower as the technology gets better). And to whatapiper's comment about quality, I think it's much more likely that quality would be as good if not even improve as new techniques and innovation lead to better strains and even wider selection (think microbrews once they eased craft brewery restrictions).

The point of all this is (obviously) taxes are stupid, but not nearly as dumb as prohibition which has far more wide reaching economical (not to mention unjust societal) consequences.

It's just too damn bad that none of this really matters because the federal gov'ts hands are tied, regardless of who wins on Tuesday amiright?

Cost per pound                    $1,000
Wholesale tax25%250
Annual fee1,000
Distribution (per lb)50
Producer markup25%575
Retail markup35%1,006
Sales tax6%233
Total per pound4,114
Total per ounce257
I'm drunk but that was epuc

fuckin banks man....  people use them shits like woah.

The Line still sucks. Hard.

Offline VDB

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 7794
  • Karma: 276
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2012, 12:03:31 AM »
I don't know, is that really any better or worse than other "immoral" goods. The excise tax [...]

As a general rule, I'm not a fan "sin taxes" or excise taxes either, for that matter.

It's one thing when such tax revenues are explicitly earmarked for public programs that are necessary strictly due to the existence of the thing being taxed -- for example, government-funded healthcare for indigent people for illnesses directly caused by their own cigarette use, or alcoholism. (Even then, not everyone paying into the tax is guaranteed to require the use of those public services down the road.)

But often, these revenues simply go into general funds and are used to plug budget holes or for other programs. What really gets in my craw is when a sin tax is floated as a revenue source for some completely unrelated effort -- usually involving children so that anyone who opposes it looks like a heartless dick. Well, I say, if the program you're trying to fund is good for the welfare of the general public, let the general public share in funding it. Don't just load those taxes on the backs of drinkers or pot smokers because, shit, who wants to stick up for them anyway.

Of course I agree that taxation and regulation here is better than prohibition, but I don't like the message that's sent in the process. Marijuana should be legal because it's not nearly as evil and dangerous as some make it out to be, and free people should be able to smoke a plant if they want to. That goes for pot or catnip or oregano or turnip greens, for all I care, and if everyone suddenly realized that smoking catnip is really fucking fun, that would be no excuse for the government to rush in and slap a bunch of restrictions and taxes on that activity just in exchange for them not locking your ass up for doing it.
there is no explanation
it's all inside your head


de gustibus non disputandum

Offline runawayjimbo

  • Wrote the Book
  • **
  • Posts: 4572
  • Karma: 180
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2012, 09:12:49 AM »
Agreed. Not to mention, sin taxes generally do not deter the "harmful" behavior which is another justification for their existence: in NY, poor smokers end up paying 25% of their income to buy cigarettes. So now not only are they less healthy, but they are poorer too.

Also,

As a general rule, I'm not a fan "sin taxes" or excise taxes either, for that matter.

FYP
I'm drunk but that was epuc

fuckin banks man....  people use them shits like woah.

The Line still sucks. Hard.

Offline slslbs

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 14537
  • Karma: 1022
  • Gender: Male
  • Let there be songs to fill the air
    • music list
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2012, 03:29:18 PM »
there is some data that the price of cigarrettes is in fact a deterrence to kids starting to smoke.

of course, once your addicted...
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

Offline runawayjimbo

  • Wrote the Book
  • **
  • Posts: 4572
  • Karma: 180
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Political Pot Thread
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2012, 02:42:29 AM »
A pretty detailed look at the various legalization/decriminalization efforts and the implications of them if they pass.

http://blog.mpp.org/medical-marijuana/2012-marijuana-on-the-ballot/11012012/
I'm drunk but that was epuc

fuckin banks man....  people use them shits like woah.

The Line still sucks. Hard.