Author Topic: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System  (Read 3818 times)

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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 12:32:13 PM »
this is what happens when a third party candidate who is on the ballot in 38 states shows up to a presidential debate

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/green-party-candidates-arrested-at-presidential-debate/



If she didn't get all lawbreaky should could totally have made herself heard by setting up a soap crate down at the local homeless shelter.

FREEDUMB!

Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 08:39:35 PM »
Haven't gotten enough of the "real" debates? C-SPAN is airing the third party debate tonight at 9pm for the hardcore junkies.

Two party system my ass...

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Third-Party-Presidential-Debate/10737435220/

Quote
Third Party Presidential Debate

Four Third Party Presidential candidates are participating in a debate in Chicago, organized by the Free and Equal Elections Foundation.

The participants will include Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson, Green Party candidate Jill Stein, Constitution Party candidate Virgil Goode, and Justice Party candidate Rocky Anderson. The hour and half event is being moderated by former CNN anchor Larry King and Christina Tobin, founder and chair of the Free and Equal Elections Foundation.
I'm drunk but that was epuc

fuckin banks man....  people use them shits like woah.

The Line still sucks. Hard.

Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 09:27:48 PM »
This debate is amazing, fueled by the sheer brilliance/incoherence the inimitable of Larry King.
I'm drunk but that was epuc

fuckin banks man....  people use them shits like woah.

The Line still sucks. Hard.

Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 10:45:56 PM »
Don't worry, there will be another 3rd party debate featuring the top two candidates from this debate. They will be picked by...IRV!!! Somebody in Youngstown is getting paid tonight!!

http://live.freeandequal.org/stream.html
I'm drunk but that was epuc

fuckin banks man....  people use them shits like woah.

The Line still sucks. Hard.

Offline ytowndan

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 11:09:02 PM »
Don't worry, there will be another 3rd party debate featuring the top two candidates from this debate. They will be picked by...IRV!!! Somebody in Youngstown is getting paid tonight!!

http://live.freeandequal.org/stream.html

Ha.  Had I known about this, I probably would have watched it. 
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Offline nab

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2012, 02:23:02 AM »
Having a hard time answering this one because the poll asks one question and begs another.  The main question addresses the answerer's loyalty to the Electoral College system, while the underlying question suggests that abolition of the Electoral College benefits a multi-party system. 


While I support the further democratization of the voting system (and the abolition of the Electoral College), I have the sneaking fear that this culture is stuck on binary answers to multivariate dilemmas.

Many have argued that the current two party system has really evolved into two different flavors of the same system.  I suspect that there may be some truth to that assessment in some arenas.  But the absorption of hardline ethical stances to morally grey issues (pick your poison) continues to drive voters into camps.

The insidious disease in the American electorate is not that they are partisan, the American system has always been partisan, but that disparate and similar  forces have convinced the public that by simply voting they are co-opting an ethical identity that transcends individual action. 

I'd like to believe that a system that benefits the broadcasting of many viewpoints benefits us all in the democratic sense, but my studies into ethnic identity makes me pessimistic about any real change without extra-cultural crisis.           

Offline ytowndan

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2012, 04:59:03 AM »
Having a hard time answering this one because the poll asks one question and begs another.  The main question addresses the answerer's loyalty to the Electoral College system, while the underlying question suggests that abolition of the Electoral College benefits a multi-party system. 


While I support the further democratization of the voting system (and the abolition of the Electoral College), I have the sneaking fear that this culture is stuck on binary answers to multivariate dilemmas.

Many have argued that the current two party system has really evolved into two different flavors of the same system.  I suspect that there may be some truth to that assessment in some arenas.  But the absorption of hardline ethical stances to morally grey issues (pick your poison) continues to drive voters into camps.

The insidious disease in the American electorate is not that they are partisan, the American system has always been partisan, but that disparate and similar  forces have convinced the public that by simply voting they are co-opting an ethical identity that transcends individual action. 

I'd like to believe that a system that benefits the broadcasting of many viewpoints benefits us all in the democratic sense, but my studies into ethnic identity makes me pessimistic about any real change without extra-cultural crisis.           

I wasn't trying to falsely imply that by simply abolishing the electoral college it would benefit independent and third-party candidates, nor did I intend for it to be about one's loyalty to the electoral college.  I already know the answer to that question.  As I mentioned, according to the polls, a constitutional amendment abolishing it has been supported by the majority of the nation for a long time now.  Hell, in 1970, we were only a few Senate votes shy of sending a proposed amendment out to the states for ratification.  I think we can assume that the people of the 'paug will reflect the nation's view when it comes to just simply getting rid of the system. 

My question was about replacing it, not with just any old popular vote system (like what's been proposed in the past), but with a system where you wouldn't have to be fearful of throwing your vote away if you truly like a candidate outside of the two mainstream choices.  Or, even worse than just throwing your vote away, being one of the people who helped hand the election to the "greater of two evils".  Most all systems of voting (direct or not) are prone to the spoiler-effect of splitting the vote.  IRV is a solution to that and, by extension, provides the people with a legitimate opportunity to reshape our system.   

I suppose I could have better worded my question and original post.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 05:05:32 AM by ytowndan »
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Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2012, 11:39:10 PM »
+k to nab who usually says what I mean in a much more intellectual way (although you better check those center-right leanings once you get a job; academia is not gonna take kindly to you like that!!)

Don't worry, there will be another 3rd party debate featuring the top two candidates from this debate. They will be picked by...IRV!!! Somebody in Youngstown is getting paid tonight!!

http://live.freeandequal.org/stream.html

Ha.  Had I known about this, I probably would have watched it.

Here you go, for one of your really late nights:
http://www.c-span.org/Events/Third-Party-Presidential-Debate/10737435220-1/

I thought your girl Jill Stein didn't do so well but Rocky Anderson (who agreed with her on basically everything) was pretty strong. I voted for Gary Johnson and Rocky as my top 2 picks in the IRV.

I think we can assume that the people of the 'paug will reflect the nation's view when it comes to just simply getting rid of the system.

Except for the couple of rabble-rousers who voted no.  :wink:

My question was about replacing it, not with just any old popular vote system (like what's been proposed in the past), but with a system where you wouldn't have to be fearful of throwing your vote away if you truly like a candidate outside of the two mainstream choices.

"Wasting your vote is voting for somebody you don't believe in." - Gary Johnson
I'm drunk but that was epuc

fuckin banks man....  people use them shits like woah.

The Line still sucks. Hard.

Offline ytowndan

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2012, 12:58:57 AM »
Don't worry, there will be another 3rd party debate featuring the top two candidates from this debate. They will be picked by...IRV!!! Somebody in Youngstown is getting paid tonight!!

http://live.freeandequal.org/stream.html

Ha.  Had I known about this, I probably would have watched it.

Here you go, for one of your really late nights:
http://www.c-span.org/Events/Third-Party-Presidential-Debate/10737435220-1/

I thought your girl Jill Stein didn't do so well but Rocky Anderson (who agreed with her on basically everything) was pretty strong. I voted for Gary Johnson and Rocky as my top 2 picks in the IRV.

I really don't know much about her, to be honest.  As you know, I live in a swing state, so I don't even like tempting myself by learning about these people.  But I did watch it today, and I agree with you.  Anderson and Johnson would have got my #1 and #2 vote as well, had the poll not been closed by the time i got around to it. 
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Offline nab

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2012, 01:16:59 AM »
+k to nab who usually says what I mean in a much more intellectual way (although you better check those center-right leanings once you get a job; academia is not gonna take kindly to you like that!!)


I got quite enough of academia when I was a grad student.  There is much more money to be made in my field in the private sector if you play your cards right.  I'm employed in the private sector now and  still learning the business (spent my grad school years vetting myself for government employment, unsuccessfully, so far), so I don't expect to rake it in in the near term, but I'm setting myself nicely for the 5 year outlook.   

But, my experiences with "the department" as a grad student were more than enough to convince me that the academic career path is only something I wish to pursue after I'm in a position where I don't have to worry about money, time, or status; which is a kind way of stating that I expect to toy with it after I retire, just to snag that PhD apple off the tree. 

But back to business:

     
I wasn't trying to falsely imply that by simply abolishing the electoral college it would benefit independent and third-party candidates, nor did I intend for it to be about one's loyalty to the electoral college.  I already know the answer to that question.  As I mentioned, according to the polls, a constitutional amendment abolishing it has been supported by the majority of the nation for a long time now.  Hell, in 1970, we were only a few Senate votes shy of sending a proposed amendment out to the states for ratification.  I think we can assume that the people of the 'paug will reflect the nation's view when it comes to just simply getting rid of the system. 

My question was about replacing it, not with just any old popular vote system (like what's been proposed in the past), but with a system where you wouldn't have to be fearful of throwing your vote away if you truly like a candidate outside of the two mainstream choices.  Or, even worse than just throwing your vote away, being one of the people who helped hand the election to the "greater of two evils".  Most all systems of voting (direct or not) are prone to the spoiler-effect of splitting the vote.  IRV is a solution to that and, by extension, provides the people with a legitimate opportunity to reshape our system.   

I suppose I could have better worded my question and original post.


For the record, after reading all the posts in this thread, I know that what you stated here is what you meant. 

Still, the question remains:  Would the abolition of the current voting system, for any voting system,  lead to a more populist, even vetted populist, result?  Or, are we, as an American meta-culture, too invested in a binary system to make any vote counting, or shuffling of democratic the deck, meaningful?   



Offline VDB

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2016, 03:15:31 PM »
Bump!

 :|
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Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2016, 09:23:40 PM »
Ferfuckssake lol
I'm drunk but that was epuc

fuckin banks man....  people use them shits like woah.

The Line still sucks. Hard.

Offline VDB

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2016, 10:33:58 PM »
Interesting take here, but if your defense of the EC is "we're not sure," why not just scrap it and remove all doubt?
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Offline mattstick

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2016, 03:35:49 PM »

Wait... the Electoral College doesn't have to vote for the candidate with the most votes?

https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electoral-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19?recruiter=553555877

Your system is kinda fucked dudes.

Offline PIE-GUY

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Re: The Electoral College and the Two-Party System
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2016, 06:38:32 PM »

Wait... the Electoral College doesn't have to vote for the candidate with the most votes?

https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electoral-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19?recruiter=553555877

Your system is kinda fucked dudes.

It's true - they would be breaking zero laws if they voted for anyone other than who they are supposed to represent.
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