Author Topic: Checking My Procedure  (Read 10417 times)

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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2006, 02:56:19 PM »
if you want volume, use a clean amp, clean speakers, and turn the knob clockwise.

Offline sophist

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2006, 03:27:59 PM »

You should figure out a way to do an A/B test of FLAC playback vs. WAV playback, I really don't think there will be a noticeable difference.

Also, why are you guys adding extra speakers for your playback?  You only have 2 ears, and the more speakers you have the more likely you are to be creating some form of phasing/time smear issues.

I enjoy surround sound.  I just positioned the speakers so they surround me.  As far as phasing, I have yet to hear any of that.  I have a small room, and the speakers are equal distance from the PC  (give or take a inch). 
Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2006, 04:02:35 PM »
live recordings are rarely in surround sound.

Offline sophist

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2006, 04:19:12 PM »
live recordings are rarely in surround sound.
that is correct sir.  I usually prefer a good album during the day time, and I save the shows for my ipod, and driving time.  I never stated that I listen to phish with this setup.  I think it makes the sound of the show kind of flat.  I prefer the ipod for phish shows, it allows me to concentrate on the music more.  Plus I like to fall asleep to phish. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 04:21:28 PM by phan003 »
Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

Offline nab

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2006, 04:53:02 PM »
Flac playback, seamless, free, and independent of any major corporation (winamp is owned by aol): http://www.foobar2000.org/
Then, go here http://foosion.foobar2000.org/0.9/ and get the "stable components package" which is a bundle of plugins for foobar that includes a stellar plugin that simplifies tagging flacs for live shows (given a txt file that is formatted reasonably.)

It's not fancy looking but you want to play flacs not look at them, right?


Perfect.  Exactly what I was looking for.  Works just like what I wanted.  I have my speakers set up on a four channel system.  I do notice a "fuller" sound when I set them up this way.  I might be fooling myself, but it sounds good to my ears.

Offline Marmar

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2006, 10:55:28 AM »
I think the more speakers is for more volume (as long as the source can power it.  Especially if they're hooked in parallel)  I don't think there's an issue with phasing/smearing in a 20x20 room but I could be wrong.  I suppose it has to do with the acoustics of the room too.  I am sure all the cables will be within a few feet of length with each other too.

J

Ok....this is a common misconception. ANY time you have more than one source point for directed energy, if the source points are NOT aligned on the same axis, you will have time smear, ring modulation, amplitude modulation, freq. modulation, dead spots, "loud" spots, early reflections, etc.....all the bad things you don't want to have heappening to sound (Matty hit this right on the head). ESPECIALLY if you are trying to create a quasi-quad setup (5/6/7.1 does not apply due to the delay that the amp adds to reconstruct "room acoustics"). Quad is a BITCH to configure. Think about this.....in a quad system, you have 4 source points. These 4 source points have to be ABSOLUTELY lined on the X-Y vector axis, and ABSOLUTELY square. Even a misalignment of say....1/4" on any of the points (the tolerances for proper acoustical reproduction are SO miniscule its silly....1/4" is a MASSIVE ammount) will result in any of the above mentioned sound colorations......

If you've ever seen the inside of a major studio control room, have you ever noticed the monitors?.......ever wonder why they are always laying on their side?......ever closely examine a studio monitor and notice that the drivers are as close to being absolutely flush as possible?....There's a reason they are set up like this.....it's to avoid these issues. There are ways to treat a room if you can't set up a perfect setup. Ok, I'm beginning to ramble......back to what I was saying......

Having more speakers does NOT equal a louder system. This is a common misconception. If you have 100watts, that's all you got. Period. You can put 100watts into 200 speakers, and it will not play any louder than it would if it came from one. As a matter of fact, it would prolly HURT the performance more than anything due to the lovely rules stated by Ohms Law.....Adding more resistance requires more power to drive the speaker to the same db level output......this is basic speaker wiring..... 4ohm + 4ohm can either equal 2ohms (in parallel) or 16ohms (in series).......The lower that load is, the higher the current can be driving the load.

In other words.....to get more decibles, you need more current. The more current you have available, the harder you can drive a speaker, and thus get more db's out of it.....and of course, you all know that getting a +3db gain in output requires DOUBLE the power.....

dB (SPL)   Source
194   Theoretical limit for a sound wave at 1 atmosphere environmental pressure
180   Rocket engine at 30 meters
171   Current SPL record for a IASCA Competition
120   Threshold of pain
80    Vacuum cleaner at 1 m
50    Quiet restaurant inside
0    Threshold of human hearing

* It takes an amplifier twice the power to produce an increase of +3 dB.
* It usually takes about 2-3 dB for a human to perceive a difference in a sound level.
* It takes +10 dB for a human to percieve a doubling of the sound level.

Smeared: Lacking detail. Poor transient response, too much leakage between microphones. Poorly focused images.
Muddy: Not clear. Weak harmonics, smeared time response, I.M. distortion.

That is all...
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 11:04:56 AM by Marmar »
Who's the Marmar? I'm the Marmar!!!

If John Medeski was my church organist I would NEVER miss a Sunday....

Phish doesn't write beautiful music...the beautiful music happens after the written parts.

"If you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - Dr. Timothy Leary

<gainesvillegreen> now, if they could get their sound to be as good as the lights, we'd have a band hee-yah!!

Music is what feelings sound like.

Offline jephrey

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2006, 05:15:06 PM »
My "louder" statement was based on having underpowered speakers.  If you can pump out more than the speakers can handle, adding more speakers allows you to use the wattage of the head more effectively.  However, you decrease your power output  if you run the speakers in parallel for the ohms law reason you stated. 

So, I understand the concept that adding speakers doesn't matter.

As for the quasi-quad setup, after reading your explanation and thinking about it, you're right on.  Even 1/16 inch is huge sound wise, you wouldn't even be able to move your head if you want to retain the same sound quality. 

Does that same idea apply to vehicles?  I have a 7-speaker system.  If the 3 speakers on the right side are playing the exact thing and I'm different distances from each, there's a potential problem right?  Luckily, a vehicle isn't a soundroom.

J
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Offline sophist

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2006, 05:52:06 PM »
marmar and mattstick,
you guys suck  :wink:
I always think have my stuff (shows, audio setup) sounding really good, and now I'm paranoid that it proboly sounds like shit to you guys.   :lol:

Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

Offline mattstick

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2006, 06:32:10 PM »

* mattstick does'nt feel pain until 140dB

 8-)

Offline nab

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2006, 06:43:22 PM »
A good pair of headphones always helps to balance things out, right?  No guessing about how to arrange your speakers, just plop them on your head and go.  That's a subject for further debate.

Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2006, 09:54:56 AM »
Well put Mar. Clearly I couldn't go into such detail with authority but that's all behind what i meant when I said:
if you want volume, use a clean amp, clean speakers, and turn the knob clockwise.
Although I didn't address placement  :wink:

A good pair of headphones always helps to balance things out, right?  No guessing about how to arrange your speakers, just plop them on your head and go.  That's a subject for further debate.

Yeah, we can go on for pages on "good" headphones. But, to a degree and, with exceptions, they tend to be a "get what you pay for" sort of thing.

Also, headphones is so different from a properly spaced pair of monitors. Ask Marmar or Matt if they ever 'master' with headphones on.

Offline Marmar

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2006, 11:06:00 AM »
Does that same idea apply to vehicles?  I have a 7-speaker system.  If the 3 speakers on the right side are playing the exact thing and I'm different distances from each, there's a potential problem right?  Luckily, a vehicle isn't a soundroom.

Vehicles are a totally different beast. Angled reflective surfaces.....that's all I gotta say about vehicles. But as far as phasing in a vehicle. Yes, you are correct....to a degree. Usually, in a "decent" car stereo, the speakers are aligned on at least one (sometimes 2) of the 4 axis. Usually, your front door and rear door speakers are on axis. The same holds true for dash and rear deck speakers. The major reason behind why the timing issues are usually so small you don't notice them is the effective volume of the listening area. The smaller the volume of the area, the less you'll notice time smear issues......plus, since the angled reflective surfaces of the car interior act as bass traps (I'll explain in a moment) you don't notice phasing issues. My truck had a total of 11 speakers.....yes, 11.....and I broke every single rule regarding their placement.....becasue in a small space like that you can bend those rules without the major consiquences.

About the "bass traps" of a car interior. Bass waves are enormous. Really.....they are. You can be standing next to a sub pumping 90db and not hear a damn thing, but back away 20-30 feet and suddenly it feels like you're being kicked in the chest.......The interior of a car acts like a bass trap becasue of the angled surfaces and absorbing surfaces. There simply isn't enough room inside a vehicle to create a standing wave below 125-150Hz. All those angles also help smear the time relations of the speakers. Driver position is also the key thing.....you aren't sitting in the middle of the car, so no matter what getting proper balance is tricky.....but this also works to your advantage in a car becasue you are so close to one set of drivers.....so their sound goes outward towards the passengers side (if you are the driver) and reflects back to you from the windows.......this delay time is almost close enough to provide a stereo reflection back at your ears.......couple that with the reflected energy from the other speakers, and the smear is so great that your ears can't tell what is going on or where it is coming from.

And this goes back to the headphones......you NEVER want to try and do complete mastering with headphones. They are great for editing, tracking and the like, but NOT for mastering. You are tricking your ears with headphones. You can create a nearly PERFECT stereo mix with amazing balance, tonality, and spread with headphones on, only to play it back on a set of monitors to find out the 30+ hrs you spent working on a track were for nothing becasue of the spread being too wide.....or you notice a suddon spike in freq at or near a speaker crossover point......but the converse doesn't hold true........If you make a killer mix on a set of near/mid-field monitors, 9 out of 10 times it will sound just as good on a set of headphones.......or even better.

Sound manipulation is a very tricky thing......there are so many variables that it's almost impossible to stay on top of them all......

You ever notice on a day with high humidity that bass is extended (thicker sounding) and highs get muddied? Ever notice that day sets sound TOTALLY different than night sets?

Heh....ok, I need to quit rambling and go over this list of 1996-1998 DAT FOB's.....
Who's the Marmar? I'm the Marmar!!!

If John Medeski was my church organist I would NEVER miss a Sunday....

Phish doesn't write beautiful music...the beautiful music happens after the written parts.

"If you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - Dr. Timothy Leary

<gainesvillegreen> now, if they could get their sound to be as good as the lights, we'd have a band hee-yah!!

Music is what feelings sound like.

Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2006, 01:59:09 PM »
You ever notice on a day with high humidity that bass is extended (thicker sounding) and highs get muddied? Ever notice that day sets sound TOTALLY different than night sets?

There is some relationship between this and the sensation I get when I listen to the Siket Disc version of "What's The Use". It makes me think of being well stoned on a hot, sticky, Virginia day and walking along the concourse at a show listening to the unnatural sounds of a sick, sick, jam...

Offline jephrey

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2006, 04:13:55 PM »
Thanks for the lesson mar.
j
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Offline tet

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Re: Checking My Procedure
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2006, 05:19:01 PM »
Thanks for the lesson mar.
j

that wasn't a lesson, it was a schooling!   :evil:
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