Who wants to go first?
I think we may need to append a spoiler warning to the title, just incase of drunken pauging between now and when I go see it. :mrgreen:
You clicked in here without seeing the film first? Playing with fire, Chuck.
I like to live dangerously.
Let's give it until Monday.
Thought it was pretty epic.
Snoke fight was awesome and for maybe the only time saw Rey and Kylo fight together. That was cool
Wonder how much Carrie fisher will be in the next episode. They def had a chance to end her role in this one but must have a good bit of film left with her to keep it going.
So, Luke dies by exhaustion? I'm not thrilled with this ending for our hero. Maybe I just didnt understand how low his force gauge was without a heads up display.
Quote from: birdman on December 17, 2017, 08:42:43 PM
So, Luke dies by exhaustion? I'm not thrilled with this ending for our hero. Maybe I just didnt understand how low his force gauge was without a heads up display.
That was definitely disappointing. The whole deceptive, remote jedi thing....you thought he was dead but he was really back in Northern Ireland...oh wait, no you're right....he's dead. Because? I don't know. To tell you the truth, I would've enjoyed the movie a lot more if Luke wasn't in it. Spent half the movie trying not to be a jedi, then after R2 replays the Princess Leia hologram from a New Hope, he does a 180 and decides to train Rey? Pfft. All of his scenes seemed completely unoriginal and mailed in, writing-wise.
Pretty much everything else, I liked. Didn't mean to bash on it. I was just so excited to see what Luke would bring. And he pretty much showed up like the Buffalo Bills.
Saw it, pretty damn good, definitely better than Force Awakens and brought something new to the table.
Benicio was a pleasant surprise, had no idea he would be in it and it was a classic role that hearkened back to his early work like Usual Suspects.
So, Rey and Ren are brother and sister right? We don't really believe that bs about her parents being random drunk junk traders do we?
They had to limit Luke's role to some degree because well, Mark Hamill can't really act. I thought they did a good job of working him into the story and was fine with his last scene. Kinda thought he would be checking out in this one.
Really hope they have footage for Carrie Fisher in IX and that they don't have to do too much CGI.
Was a little bummed that they didn't really fill in much of Snoke's backstory and that he didn't show us any light saber skills. But I guess he's not a Sith anyway?
Definitely will be seeing it in the theater again.
First of all, I loved it. Not perfect but great.
Luke didn't die. He's not more dead than Yoda who didn't seem so much like a ghost in this one did he?
He held to his ideals of not raising a lightsaber while still giving the resistance hope and help. He studied the ancient texts and learned not only how to give his life force and matter into the force the way Obi Wan and Yoda did but to project himself through that across great distances. That, as well as Snoke's power to connect minds are force powers we've not seen before. But why shouldn't there be powers we've never seen? I thought it was beautiful and unpredictable. If Luke had actually shown up and fought Ben and died like Obi Wan, that would have been decried as well. I think that would have been a more justified complaint.
I liked the old fashioned Samauri/Kung Fu trope of the potential student sleeping outside, waiting on the doorstep of their chosen master, hoping to be trained. Strong call back to that sort of story right down to the following him around through is day-to-day mundane tasks.
Agreed completely about Benicio Del Toro. Dude was terrific.
I thought the porgs were only briefly funny and altogether kinda stupid but that is a thing that Star Wars does so I didn't let it get me down (or there wasn't enough of it to get me down. Either way...)
I'm not convinced that Rey and Ren are siblings although that could certainly prove out and have a quality pay off. I'm also not convinced about her parentage as described but that too could be real and I'd be cool with it. Definitely some class warfare tones in this and if she's the daughter of a princess well... let's just say the humble beginnings might make a better story. All that said, the big saber fight was fucking awesome.
I'm not too worried about Snoke's story. I'm curious and would likely read about it in a book but, ultimately, this is not his story. He's just another surrogate parent. I did love how he went out. His own arrogance trumped his power.
Lastly, I liked Finn's story. The heist was cool and introduced a new character and a point of conflict for Finn now that he's met two girls in his life... Also, I wonder if Phasma will be back? Does she count as a third girl? Being handsome is tough in outer space.
The Hux/Ren pairing is pretty good stuff, btw.
As for Carrie Fisher, they had all of her stuff shot before she passed. Ultimately, the film is better for how it played out but now they have a huge problem. How to lose a major character. They've said that they won't use cgi. That sorta leaves them painted in a corner, doesn't it? I guess we'll see in two years.
I'll be seeing this movie again soon.
ETA:
This guy gets it and I 100% agree with him.
https://filmcrithulk.blog/2017/12/15/the-force-belongs-to-us-the-last-jedis-beautiful-refocusing-of-star-wars/
Loved the skewering of Vegas and paying a little tribute to the working class too. Mentioning the profitability if tve First Order was a nice touch too.
Pointed social commentary that actually works, unlike monotonous Galactic Senate scenes for instance, is a new thing for Star Wars.
First- I loved the movie and think it's a fantastic step for the franchise.
That said, this movie is far from perfect.
My issues with the movie-
Leia into space and then coming back
Yoda all of a sudden being like nah, fuck it, Luke. She's good. Those Jedi texts are Boring as fuck anyway.
Luke, in general. Winking at C3PO, dusting his shoulder off, etc.
Complete and total dismissal of Ackbar. "Oh by the way, that guy died".
Plot line of let's just wait until they run out of gas is pretty weak, IMO
Snoke....zero character development and killed way too easily. He clearly has a lot of respect for the history of the dark side(or maybe just Vader?) and is pretty powerful. Cool side note: his ring is made From obsidian cut from below Vader's temple.
I had to watch it again to clarify some stuff. Lots of foreshadowing bits that seemed like tossed-off dialogue the first time through.
My brief review is STFU Neely, except for a couple points:
Floaty space Leia is weird to the point where I almost think they planned some reshoots that didn't happen. That scene also downplays Ackbar being there on the bridge and dying.
The middle bits of the movie could have been tightened up, in terms of the "disable their lightspeed tracking" subplot. I expected Lando to show up instead of Benecio but this is the movie of "fuck off, coincidences"
-STFU Neely section------------
Snoke's death - Who cares about some wrinkly perv that sits around and fucks with force noobs and pretends to be emperor. I had to rewatch to confirm it was Ren and not Rey that spun that lightsaber and turned it on. I kind of thought the guards Rey&Ren fought in that scene were the "Knights of Ren" but I guess not.
All the Luke and Yoda jokes - Good stuff. Clear that he picked up his teaching style from his teacher. the Jay-Z Dirt-off-your-shoulder could have been executed better, but Luke was stalling and also baiting Ren so it was valid.
Rian Johnson hears your concerns and isn't bothered in the slightest because dude is way more chill than you, man.
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/19/yes-rian-johnson-knows-that-people-are-mad-online-about-star-wars
It's a movie about burning down the past, giving the finger to tradition and going bravely into a scary and uncertain future.
I don't see how any true Star Wars fan can't get with that
Quote from: Hicks on December 19, 2017, 02:00:51 PM
It's a movie about burning down the past, giving the finger to tradition and going bravely into a scary and uncertain future.
I don't see how any true Star Wars fan can't get with that
Hmm. But people seem to be giving Rian Johnson an *awful* lot of credit merely for, as you say, giving a giant finger to things that have been set into motion or expectations raised by the films that came before his. I just don't see the inherent virtue in doing that. Continuity and not blowing off storylines is kinda important in a series.
I'll have more to say when I get a long, spare moment.
Also I kind of like the Hux guy now. Last movie he was just like a random hitler guy, now he's a foil for Kylo whenever there's a tantrum, like a babysitter that gets shitty. "Did you get him, Kylo? Is he dead yet? Why are you mad, did your uncle force-finger you?"
Quote from: VDB on December 19, 2017, 03:04:21 PM
Quote from: Hicks on December 19, 2017, 02:00:51 PM
It's a movie about burning down the past, giving the finger to tradition and going bravely into a scary and uncertain future.
I don't see how any true Star Wars fan can't get with that
Hmm. But people seem to be giving Rian Johnson an *awful* lot of credit merely for, as you say, giving a giant finger to things that have been set into motion or expectations raised by the films that came before his. I just don't see the inherent virtue in doing that. Continuity and not blowing off storylines is kinda important in a series.
I'll have more to say when I get a long, spare moment.
Disagree, I applaud Johnson having the courage to push the saga in new directions instead of just offering up another rehash sequel.
Was anyone able to make out what the mosaic was at the bottom of the pool on Ahch-to?
Quote from: antelope19 on December 19, 2017, 07:50:18 PM
Was anyone able to make out what the mosaic was at the bottom of the pool on Ahch-to?
Light side/Dark side mumbo jumbo
Moved some stuff to keep this on track.
I think I'm gonna go for viewing #2 on 12/27.
I don't really have any questions or things that I missed and are concerning me this go-round so, at the moment it's strictly for a more relaxed viewing...
Except there is one thing:
Was Yoda a practical effect? Did they go back to puppet Yoda?
ETA:
Here's the answer!
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/film/2017-12-18/how-star-wars-the-last-jedi-brought-back-that-surprise-character/
Well, I definitely missed this. Confirmed- rogue one set up plot line in last Jedi.
Quote
A laser-focused Star Wars fan pointed out the revelation: when Jyn Erso (Felicity Jones) is looking for the Death Star blueprints on the planet Scarif, she finds a file for hyperspace tracking. And just like that, we have an explanation for what became the bane of the Resistance in The Last Jedi.
Essentially, it was impossible for anyone to track a ship that jumped into hyperspace, but the Empire had been working on the technology years prior to The Last Jedi. It seems it lived on with the First Order and became a reality. Here's Pablo Hidalgo, a Lucasfilm creative executive, responding to the Easter egg: "Ah-yup."
Hidalgo also explained that hyperspace tracking came from the Tarkin Initiative, a secret Imperial think tank. "Unsolicited pro tip," he tweeted. "If something doesn't seem, on the surface, to move the plot forward, try looking at what it might be doing to character."
Saw it today w/ my Wife and son. Pretty good overall, way better than Rogue One. Laura Dern was an interesting surprise. I still think of her as a paleo-botanist;). I liked the Luke scenes with Rey, the parallels with Buddhism are omnipresent, nothing new there however as a fan of Buddhist philosophy I love seeing it anywhere including formalistic films. BB8 was entertaining as R2 and C3 have definitely taken a back seat. The scene with Rey and Kylo was cool especially when "Ben" took out Snoke. I also really liked the meditating Luke faux scene w/ Kylo. It was entertaining to see him levitating during that sequence.
I also liked how the script talked about the "masters of wars" when they were on Fantasy Island if you will. Its also funny how they put in subliminal Christmas references with the lighting and Chewbacca's golden roasted bird snacks. Loved the Millenium scene when Rey shows up and distracts the tie fighters as well.
Quote from: kellerb on December 19, 2017, 10:29:56 AM
I had to watch it again to clarify some stuff. Lots of foreshadowing bits that seemed like tossed-off dialogue the first time through.
My brief review is STFU Neely, except for a couple points:
Floaty space Leia is weird to the point where I almost think they planned some reshoots that didn't happen. That scene also downplays Ackbar being there on the bridge and dying.
The middle bits of the movie could have been tightened up, in terms of the "disable their lightspeed tracking" subplot. I expected Lando to show up instead of Benecio but this is the movie of "fuck off, coincidences"
-STFU Neely section------------
Snoke's death - Who cares about some wrinkly perv that sits around and fucks with force noobs and pretends to be emperor. I had to rewatch to confirm it was Ren and not Rey that spun that lightsaber and turned it on. I kind of thought the guards Rey&Ren fought in that scene were the "Knights of Ren" but I guess not.
All the Luke and Yoda jokes - Good stuff. Clear that he picked up his teaching style from his teacher. the Jay-Z Dirt-off-your-shoulder could have been executed better, but Luke was stalling and also baiting Ren so it was valid.
That's all fine and good, but I really don't think this is the last we're going to hear about Snoke.
The video attached to this tweet is amazing.
https://twitter.com/rachlikesbands/status/955773075043340291
Quote from: VDB on December 19, 2017, 03:04:21 PM
I'll have more to say when I get a long, spare moment.
(https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/attachments/judge-smails_zpsui7csqss-jpg.38042/)
Just in case you want to be outraged by a contrary opinion, here's mine:
www.standbyformindcontrol.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-frog-named-mongo/
The TL;DR version: Worst Star Wars yet.
Late to the party, but I finally got to the theatre yesterday after managing to 100% avoid spoilers for over a month, lol.
My thoughts before i read anyone else's:
I'll start off by saying this was the first Star Wars movie i left the theatre without any feeling of "That was awesome -Star Wars rules".
Something just felt off for me and despite some really great potential from both characters and plot, overall the movie fell extremly flat for me.
Just as a movie, not only a star wars movie, i felt there was a distinct failure in editing and vision.
I can't say whether it was just the director, or maybe there were conflicts from Disney, but this felt at times like two movies spliced together and slathered with a coat of Lucasart paint.
On one had i really loved certain pieces within the film.
The entire Rey, Luke, Kylo Ren, Snoke plot and scenes were perfect for me up until the very anitclimactic resolving scene.
They really had me drawn in with this part of the story.
Then right when they bring in the twist with SNoke and introduce us to his devious character he is snuffed out along with the plot leaving us with a EMpire copy cat of Luke/Vader- Kylo asking Rey to join him to rule the universe.
NOT TO MENTION this is followed up by one of the worst fight scenes in a Star Wars movie ever.
"Hey, i got an idea! LEt's follow destroying the climax of the movie with a B grade marital arts fight scene that looks like it was edited in Microsoft paint!"...ugh.
and that leads me to my next point.
Of course the Space battles were fantastic looking as expected from Lucasarts, but the action and non-space battle scenes in this movie were atrocious.
Somehow topping the fight with Snoke's red guards, the prize for worst fight scene in a Star Wars movie ever goes to Finn's confrontation with Phasma. Just a horrible Hollywood cliche cheesy non Star Wars feel disaster of a scene that is another one of the film's peaks completely falling flat on it's face.
...and this takes us to my 'favorite' part of the movie-
**review to be continued/browser fucking up, lol**
Yeah, the wife and I saw it last Saturday. I thought so little of it I didn't even think to come here to talk about it. In my opinion it was the worst of the 5 that count (episodes V - VII).
That being said there were good points. Yoda being a puppet and not CGI was probably my favorite part, so I guess that's kinda sad. It really just felt like a comedy with a little bit of story and action added in, rather than an action/story-driven movie with a little bit of comedy sprinkled in like the other Star Wars movies.
k, different device, let's see if this works.
where was I... ah yes, my favorite part--
the planet Finn goes to...omg.
I honestly felt bad for Jon Boyega in this movie. His acting was superb, but god if they didn't screw him on a storyline which was obviously tacked on after the positive reaction to his character in the first film.
Most importantly this setting had zero Star Wars feel for me. Moreso a James Bond set mashed up with a Jarassic Park action escape sequence on giant antelope donkey things.
that scene BTW also falls under my previous complaint about all the action sequences in the movie. Just plain scripted and awful.
But hey, Let's top it all off with the least subtle and nonsensical social commentary ever put on film 'cause we all know that's what makes Star Wars Great Again! ammiiriiight? :roll:
So yeah, those were some of the things that really killed this one for me.
heck, I was even cool with "Space Leia" and "Projecto Luke"- which BTW was horribly scripted and they didn't even clearly convey whether or not the most important character in Star Wars history just died, but...OK.
Overall it really came down to the editing, not to mention the pacing which was completely off.
Peeks were missed, and parts of the story could have been either expanded or completely removed.
OH, and I completely forgot-- STARTING a Star Wars movie off with a mom joke was sacrilege.
Can you imagine in the first movie as Vader Boards Leia's ship if some rebel trooper stops to tell a mom joke to Vader? seriously...
The first Order was already bordering on parody, but after that snip and then more slapstick banter amongst 'villians' later in the film I felt it really lowered any sense I had of "Hey, these guys are evil"
really... a mom joke? 5 minutes into the film? :|
Quote from: VA $l!m on January 26, 2018, 08:40:55 PM
OH, and I completely forgot-- STARTING a Star Wars movie off with a mom joke was sacrilege.
Can you imagine in the first movie as Vader Boards Leia's ship if some rebel trooper stops to tell a mom joke to Vader? seriously...
The first Order was already bordering on parody, but after that snip and then more slapstick banter amongst 'villians' later in the film I felt it really lowered any sense I had of "Hey, these guys are evil"
really... a mom joke? 5 minutes into the film? :|
This sums up the whole movie. If none of the characters take any of it seriously, why should we?
Quote from: VA $l!m on January 26, 2018, 08:40:55 PM
OH, and I completely forgot-- STARTING a Star Wars movie off with a mom joke was sacrilege.
Can you imagine in the first movie as Vader Boards Leia's ship if some rebel trooper stops to tell a mom joke to Vader? seriously...
Let the past die, kill it if you have to.
Slim :clap:
OK, Hicks, you asked for it. I was going to go super-summary with my comments because I'm not feeling very riled up over this these days, but I do have about 1,800 words sitting in a Word doc from my original attempt at breaking down this film's problems. I kept getting temporarily shut out of the paug (403 "access forbidden") every time I tried to post it last month. Very bizarrely enough, I have now narrowed the issue down, I think, to merely including the word c.a.s.i.n.o. (Seriously. So hence the periods right there.)
------
My annotated Last Jedi hate:
The plot. Atrocious. A slow-speed space pursuit? Like, ships literally sitting there against a black backdrop doing nothing apparent. This is boring AF and presents holes aplenty. Why doesn't the Empire (I'm going to just keep calling them that for brevity's sake because, what the hell, ROTJ seems to have changed little in the political scheme of things) just do a mini jump and get ahead of them or back in range? Why don't they just call in a few other ships to show up from the other direction? This entire pursuit should have been a slam dunk for the Empire. We got a line about how the Resistance ships are lighter and faster. Buuut that's really more dependent upon the ship's propulsive power relative to its mass, and I'm having a hard time believing ships owned by the same people who could afford to build a g.d. hyperspace laser planet that ate stars could not also give their big ships more than enough horsepower to run down scrappy rebel craft. And in space, where there is no friction, we have to continually burn our thrusters in order to maintain a constant speed? I'm sure Neil deGrasse Tyson would have happily tweeted some pointers if the filmmakers had asked. Rian Johnson is said to have scrapped what was given to him and started afresh on the entire story. This is what he came up with? How many people at Lucasfilm signed off on this? I refuse to believe this was the most compelling plot they could have devised. It feels like the plot from some low-rent SyFy Channel series. It's the plot you'd come up with if you didn't have any budget to create actual effects, so you just hung some spaceship models in front of a black curtain and had your characters explain to the audience that, trust us, this is some action-packed shit happening right here.
The c.a.s.i.n.o. world side story. So Finn and his new pal (Rey romance = ixnay? they barely share any screen time) jet off to Monaco to find the one, single person who can save the Resistance. But, oops, they get stopped by security guards because some redneck alien complained about their parking job. So they get tossed in jail, and it's all gonna be over, except – relief! – there's *another* genius codebreaker *right there* in the cell with them. What are the odds! Quick sidebar into some heavy-handed messaging about oppression, then let's save some animals, and then let's go find the magic hyperspace tracking device that of course Finn knows how to identify because as a janitor he has been privy to all of the Empire's most critical warmaking facilities and technologies.
(Oh. Turns out Benicio is little more than an opportunistic hustler, so the whole mission ends up being for naught and this side adventure does absolutely bupkus to advance the plot.)
The hyperspace tracker. Hastily explained and confusingly arbitrary. Some ships (see: gambleland mission) can come and go at will, but the rest of the fleet has to keep it in low gear or get wiped out? So how many ships can the Empire track with this technology, exactly? If it's such a game-changer, why is it housed in a hallway server closet that's so lightly guarded that three strangers in stolen laundry and a bumbling trashcan can just roll right up and start poking at circuits? If being tracked (through hyperspace) was such a problem for the Resistance, what difference does that make since they end up touching down on salt world in full view of the Empire anyway?
Supreme Leader Snoke. Here's a guy whose appearance raised so many questions in Force Awakens and was given such import. Remember when they even spoiled a sweet Han-Leia scene by bringing up his dumb name? ("It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side." Ugh. So bad. This guy had better be worth it, we're telling ourselves.) Well, turns out the new filmmakers had no idea what to do with the dude so let's just kill him halfway through. In a way that makes no sense given how much real-time intuition he's supposed to have. What was this guy's relationship to the Sith? To the force? To the Empire? To Vader? How did we go from one dead Emperor to someone seemingly just as powerful and then he's out of the picture without any explanation? Why was his face so horribly scarred to the point where he simply *had* to be done as a fake CGI character instead of played by a real person? Never you mind. None of that matters.
Rey's training. Grouchy Luke says go away a lot. Changes his mind. Here's a 15-minute lesson. Boom, all done. (With a quick visit to the house of mirrors for no apparent reason at all.)
Laura Dern's character. Utterly useless. Why keep her heroic plan a secret at all, much less for so long? I literally couldn't tell if she was a secret Empire agent, just an idiot, or what. It prompted an unnecessary mutiny, for god's sake. And when she wasn't being arbitrarily obtuse, she was spouting clichés of the most abominable sort.
Ackbar's death. Mentioned in a quick piece of dialog. OK. Shit. Do the filmmakers realize how beloved that character is? Why not have him go out like Laura Dern and ax her role altogether?
Leia's fake death scene. You know the audience is on edge the whole film over this. So she gets blown out in a quick flash of CGI, and we tighten up, but instead she does some lame CGI skywalking to save herself. A clunky way to handle all of that. (Not to mention, it makes me wonder why she's never used the force to help out all her comrades who are getting blown up left and right. Even force rookie Rey uses it to literally save the whole gang at the end.)
Luke's fake death scene. First, he shows up inside a mountain bunker that we're told has no other ways in or out. He and Leia have a moment. We assume he's real. Probably took his soggy X-wing to get there? How'd he get inside again? (Nevermind, Poe will say something later about it; incidental.) Then Kylo fires a bunch of lasers at him. We have no reason to believe this isn't his most unceremonious end. Hux mutters a quip that seems designed to elicit chuckles. Except we still think Luke Skywalker has just died. Jesus Christ, help us out here, Rian. OK, he's not dead but we still don't know why not. Force hologram. OK, fine. But why does his hologram have a bad haircut? Scruffy Luke looks much better. And then, poof. I don't mind this decision all that much — it's echoes of Obi-Wan — but by this point in the film I was so disheartened and disengaged that the (actual, really though) death of Luke Motherfucking Skywalker had very little impact on me. Even Rey and Leia have an (unintentionally ironic) exchange later about how Luke's death didn't upset them. Uh huh.
Too many attempts at comedy. Comedy at inopportune times. Comedy that lazily called back to Force Awakens jokes. Comedy that undermined semi-important things we've already been told, like how Luke the hermit went to hide by himself in the remotest part of the galaxy, he was so ashamed, except actually he's had maid service the whole time. Whatever, anything for some jokes. And the porgs. So. Many. Porgs.
The dialog. Cheesy, wooden, rushed, disjointed.
Rey's backstory. Hey, remember all those hints we dropped in Force Awakens? Definitely some kind of Skywalker lineage in there, gotta be. Luke dolls, Luke flashbacks, force abilities, Snoke seems to know her, Unkar Plutt is in on it, yadda yadda. Well forget all that. Just some desert orphan. That fits our "the force is universal" message better. And maybe it does. But still, that pesky matter about the film that came just prior... But wait! This info did come from Kylo Ren, after all, and he has an agenda, so who's to say he's even credible? Maybe he was simply lying to Rey. If so, now we're going to string this mystery out over three whole episodes and confuse the audience to hell in the process? Bollocks.
Luke almost murdered a kid. So, at the end of Jedi, Luke learns the Big Important Lesson that there's good in anyone and even the evilest Vaders can be redeemed. But on the other hand, this bratty teen gives me the skeevies, so off with his head. JK! Mind you, this is all done via flashbacks and he-said-he-said. If I'm Rey I have no idea who or what to believe. So Luke could tell back then that Ben was irredeemably evil. But in the last movie we were told it was Snoke who was responsible for his evilness. Step aside folks, Rian has a few story ideas to put out there!
Rey's force intuitions. She literally uses her certainty that she had a true premonition about Kylo pulling a good deed to justify her certainty that there's no such thing as a certain future. But Kylo did kill Snoke. (Good deed? Self-serving deed? You decide!) So, Rey's intuitions = correct while near-murderous Jedi Master Luke = clueless? Yoda, help pls
The thing about arms dealers. If anyone who can snag a parked spaceship is able to saunter over the hologram table and learn how the same guys sell weapons to both the Empire and the Resistance, there's no reason to assume the Empire doesn't have this same information. And there's no way in hell they would abide that. Nice attempt at a message about the military-industrial complex and nihilism and all that, but it's transparently dubious.
Re-filming the final shot of Force Awakens. That Rey-Luke moment atop Jedi Island was visually and emotionally powerful. This time around, though, we need to have a gag, so let's just redo that scene, strip it of its artistic heft, and make way for comedy!
Gravity in space. We've got WWII-style bombers that have to fly directly over a target in order to drop bombs out of a hatch onto them. In space. Then, we have laser blasts that the Empire literally lobs on an arc toward other ships. In space.
Am I crazy or did Yoda's head look flat?
The laser battering ram. (Nitpicking here because I'm on a roll.) Wasn't it already starting to heat up the door when Finn flew right into its path? Shouldn't he have gotten cooked?
Not enough Chewie. More Chewie, less porg. Less porg with Chewie. More just Chewie.
I thought The Force Awakens was far from perfect, but I enjoyed it quite a bit. It felt like a Star Wars film and treated the characters with respect and consistency. I cannot say the same about The Last Jedi. I understand and can appreciate parts of what it was trying to accomplish, but the execution was riddled with problems and the story attempted too many midstream changes given all that had been established ahead of it.
After the travesty of the prequels, Force Awakens felt like a fairly definitive sign that peace and order had been restored to the Star Wars universe. Rogue One was, to me, a stumble, but as a non-canonical entry it didn't put me off too much. Last Jedi represents such a step backwards (plus the fact that Johnson had been awarded an entire new trilogy before management even bothered to hear what people thought of Last Jedi) that I have scant confidence in the brain trust at Lucasfilm. I will see the next episode more out of curiosity than excitement, which is a sad thing to say about my favorite film franchise of all time.
Oh well.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Slim :clap:
OK, Hicks, you asked for it. I was going to go super-summary with my comments because I'm not feeling very riled up over this these days, but I do have about 1,800 words sitting in a Word doc from my original attempt at breaking down this film's problems. I kept getting temporarily shut out of the paug (403 "access forbidden") every time I tried to post it last month. Very bizarrely enough, I have now narrowed the issue down, I think, to merely including the word c.a.s.i.n.o. (Seriously. So hence the periods right there.)
------
My annotated Last Jedi hate:
The plot. Atrocious. A slow-speed space pursuit? Like, ships literally sitting there against a black backdrop doing nothing apparent. This is boring AF and presents holes aplenty. Why doesn't the Empire (I'm going to just keep calling them that for brevity's sake because, what the hell, ROTJ seems to have changed little in the political scheme of things) just do a mini jump and get ahead of them or back in range? Why don't they just call in a few other ships to show up from the other direction? This entire pursuit should have been a slam dunk for the Empire. We got a line about how the Resistance ships are lighter and faster. Buuut that's really more dependent upon the ship's propulsive power relative to its mass, and I'm having a hard time believing ships owned by the same people who could afford to build a g.d. hyperspace laser planet that ate stars could not also give their big ships more than enough horsepower to run down scrappy rebel craft. And in space, where there is no friction, we have to continually burn our thrusters in order to maintain a constant speed? I'm sure Neil deGrasse Tyson would have happily tweeted some pointers if the filmmakers had asked. Rian Johnson is said to have scrapped what was given to him and started afresh on the entire story. This is what he came up with? How many people at Lucasfilm signed off on this? I refuse to believe this was the most compelling plot they could have devised. It feels like the plot from some low-rent SyFy Channel series. It's the plot you'd come up with if you didn't have any budget to create actual effects, so you just hung some spaceship models in front of a black curtain and had your characters explain to the audience that, trust us, this is some action-packed shit happening right here.
The c.a.s.i.n.o. world side story. So Finn and his new pal (Rey romance = ixnay? they barely share any screen time) jet off to Monaco to find the one, single person who can save the Resistance. But, oops, they get stopped by security guards because some redneck alien complained about their parking job. So they get tossed in jail, and it's all gonna be over, except – relief! – there's *another* genius codebreaker *right there* in the cell with them. What are the odds! Quick sidebar into some heavy-handed messaging about oppression, then let's save some animals, and then let's go find the magic hyperspace tracking device that of course Finn knows how to identify because as a janitor he has been privy to all of the Empire's most critical warmaking facilities and technologies.
(Oh. Turns out Benicio is little more than an opportunistic hustler, so the whole mission ends up being for naught and this side adventure does absolutely bupkus to advance the plot.)
The hyperspace tracker. Hastily explained and confusingly arbitrary. Some ships (see: gambleland mission) can come and go at will, but the rest of the fleet has to keep it in low gear or get wiped out? So how many ships can the Empire track with this technology, exactly? If it's such a game-changer, why is it housed in a hallway server closet that's so lightly guarded that three strangers in stolen laundry and a bumbling trashcan can just roll right up and start poking at circuits? If being tracked (through hyperspace) was such a problem for the Resistance, what difference does that make since they end up touching down on salt world in full view of the Empire anyway?
Supreme Leader Snoke. Here's a guy whose appearance raised so many questions in Force Awakens and was given such import. Remember when they even spoiled a sweet Han-Leia scene by bringing up his dumb name? ("It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side." Ugh. So bad. This guy had better be worth it, we're telling ourselves.) Well, turns out the new filmmakers had no idea what to do with the dude so let's just kill him halfway through. In a way that makes no sense given how much real-time intuition he's supposed to have. What was this guy's relationship to the Sith? To the force? To the Empire? To Vader? How did we go from one dead Emperor to someone seemingly just as powerful and then he's out of the picture without any explanation? Why was his face so horribly scarred to the point where he simply *had* to be done as a fake CGI character instead of played by a real person? Never you mind. None of that matters.
Rey's training. Grouchy Luke says go away a lot. Changes his mind. Here's a 15-minute lesson. Boom, all done. (With a quick visit to the house of mirrors for no apparent reason at all.)
Laura Dern's character. Utterly useless. Why keep her heroic plan a secret at all, much less for so long? I literally couldn't tell if she was a secret Empire agent, just an idiot, or what. It prompted an unnecessary mutiny, for god's sake. And when she wasn't being arbitrarily obtuse, she was spouting clichés of the most abominable sort.
Ackbar's death. Mentioned in a quick piece of dialog. OK. Shit. Do the filmmakers realize how beloved that character is? Why not have him go out like Laura Dern and ax her role altogether?
Leia's fake death scene. You know the audience is on edge the whole film over this. So she gets blown out in a quick flash of CGI, and we tighten up, but instead she does some lame CGI skywalking to save herself. A clunky way to handle all of that. (Not to mention, it makes me wonder why she's never used the force to help out all her comrades who are getting blown up left and right. Even force rookie Rey uses it to literally save the whole gang at the end.)
Luke's fake death scene. First, he shows up inside a mountain bunker that we're told has no other ways in or out. He and Leia have a moment. We assume he's real. Probably took his soggy X-wing to get there? How'd he get inside again? (Nevermind, Poe will say something later about it; incidental.) Then Kylo fires a bunch of lasers at him. We have no reason to believe this isn't his most unceremonious end. Hux mutters a quip that seems designed to elicit chuckles. Except we still think Luke Skywalker has just died. Jesus Christ, help us out here, Rian. OK, he's not dead but we still don't know why not. Force hologram. OK, fine. But why does his hologram have a bad haircut? Scruffy Luke looks much better. And then, poof. I don't mind this decision all that much — it's echoes of Obi-Wan — but by this point in the film I was so disheartened and disengaged that the (actual, really though) death of Luke Motherfucking Skywalker had very little impact on me. Even Rey and Leia have an (unintentionally ironic) exchange later about how Luke's death didn't upset them. Uh huh.
Too many attempts at comedy. Comedy at inopportune times. Comedy that lazily called back to Force Awakens jokes. Comedy that undermined semi-important things we've already been told, like how Luke the hermit went to hide by himself in the remotest part of the galaxy, he was so ashamed, except actually he's had maid service the whole time. Whatever, anything for some jokes. And the porgs. So. Many. Porgs.
The dialog. Cheesy, wooden, rushed, disjointed.
Rey's backstory. Hey, remember all those hints we dropped in Force Awakens? Definitely some kind of Skywalker lineage in there, gotta be. Luke dolls, Luke flashbacks, force abilities, Snoke seems to know her, Unkar Plutt is in on it, yadda yadda. Well forget all that. Just some desert orphan. That fits our "the force is universal" message better. And maybe it does. But still, that pesky matter about the film that came just prior... But wait! This info did come from Kylo Ren, after all, and he has an agenda, so who's to say he's even credible? Maybe he was simply lying to Rey. If so, now we're going to string this mystery out over three whole episodes and confuse the audience to hell in the process? Bollocks.
Luke almost murdered a kid. So, at the end of Jedi, Luke learns the Big Important Lesson that there's good in anyone and even the evilest Vaders can be redeemed. But on the other hand, this bratty teen gives me the skeevies, so off with his head. JK! Mind you, this is all done via flashbacks and he-said-he-said. If I'm Rey I have no idea who or what to believe. So Luke could tell back then that Ben was irredeemably evil. But in the last movie we were told it was Snoke who was responsible for his evilness. Step aside folks, Rian has a few story ideas to put out there!
Rey's force intuitions. She literally uses her certainty that she had a true premonition about Kylo pulling a good deed to justify her certainty that there's no such thing as a certain future. But Kylo did kill Snoke. (Good deed? Self-serving deed? You decide!) So, Rey's intuitions = correct while near-murderous Jedi Master Luke = clueless? Yoda, help pls
The thing about arms dealers. If anyone who can snag a parked spaceship is able to saunter over the hologram table and learn how the same guys sell weapons to both the Empire and the Resistance, there's no reason to assume the Empire doesn't have this same information. And there's no way in hell they would abide that. Nice attempt at a message about the military-industrial complex and nihilism and all that, but it's transparently dubious.
Re-filming the final shot of Force Awakens. That Rey-Luke moment atop Jedi Island was visually and emotionally powerful. This time around, though, we need to have a gag, so let's just redo that scene, strip it of its artistic heft, and make way for comedy!
Gravity in space. We've got WWII-style bombers that have to fly directly over a target in order to drop bombs out of a hatch onto them. In space. Then, we have laser blasts that the Empire literally lobs on an arc toward other ships. In space.
Am I crazy or did Yoda's head look flat?
The laser battering ram. (Nitpicking here because I'm on a roll.) Wasn't it already starting to heat up the door when Finn flew right into its path? Shouldn't he have gotten cooked?
Not enough Chewie. More Chewie, less porg. Less porg with Chewie. More just Chewie.
I thought The Force Awakens was far from perfect, but I enjoyed it quite a bit. It felt like a Star Wars film and treated the characters with respect and consistency. I cannot say the same about The Last Jedi. I understand and can appreciate parts of what it was trying to accomplish, but the execution was riddled with problems and the story attempted too many midstream changes given all that had been established ahead of it.
After the travesty of the prequels, Force Awakens felt like a fairly definitive sign that peace and order had been restored to the Star Wars universe. Rogue One was, to me, a stumble, but as a non-canonical entry it didn't put me off too much. Last Jedi represents such a step backwards (plus the fact that Johnson had been awarded an entire new trilogy before management even bothered to hear what people thought of Last Jedi) that I have scant confidence in the brain trust at Lucasfilm. I will see the next episode more out of curiosity than excitement, which is a sad thing to say about my favorite film franchise of all time.
Oh well.
fantastic breakdwon.
you touched on almost everything i was thinking of and couldnt eloquently write up myself.
totally was feeling the same way about Laura Dern's charcter, Yoda's head, and not enough Chewy.
you nailed it all here.
i will say on a positive note the thing that really was this movie's one redeeming grace was the acting. Even through some truely horendous lines at times almost every actor over achieved.
Ridley, Boyega, and Hamil especially, but even Kylo far exceeded his own performance in the first movie.
I would even go as far as to say this could possibly be the reason along with JJ returning for the finale that they could turn things around, but really how hard is it going to be to have any sense of finality for the NINTH episode when there is absolutely nothing to build upon at this point plot wise.
most likely we'll just get some sort of over-action laden lens glare festi-wham bam thank you and onto the spinoffs... ugh.
i havent looked into it myself but emay i think was the one telling me that the press release for han solo's movie was less than well received.
Though there are also rumors of Ewan mcgregor getting an OB1 movie which could be our best hope.
Finally! :-D
That is so random about the c.a.s.i.n.o. issue. I was getting the 403 issue as well in another thread, doesn't seem like it's gonna get fixed though.
Anyway, that's a nice slab of hate you got there, let's rebut!
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Slim :clap:
OK, Hicks, you asked for it. I was going to go super-summary with my comments because I'm not feeling very riled up over this these days, but I do have about 1,800 words sitting in a Word doc from my original attempt at breaking down this film's problems. I kept getting temporarily shut out of the paug (403 "access forbidden") every time I tried to post it last month. Very bizarrely enough, I have now narrowed the issue down, I think, to merely including the word c.a.s.i.n.o. (Seriously. So hence the periods right there.)
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My annotated Last Jedi hate:
The plot. Atrocious. A slow-speed space pursuit? Like, ships literally sitting there against a black backdrop doing nothing apparent. This is boring AF and presents holes aplenty. Why doesn't the Empire (I'm going to just keep calling them that for brevity's sake because, what the hell, ROTJ seems to have changed little in the political scheme of things) just do a mini jump and get ahead of them or back in range? Why don't they just call in a few other ships to show up from the other direction? This entire pursuit should have been a slam dunk for the Empire. We got a line about how the Resistance ships are lighter and faster. Buuut that's really more dependent upon the ship's propulsive power relative to its mass, and I'm having a hard time believing ships owned by the same people who could afford to build a g.d. hyperspace laser planet that ate stars could not also give their big ships more than enough horsepower to run down scrappy rebel craft. And in space, where there is no friction, we have to continually burn our thrusters in order to maintain a constant speed? I'm sure Neil deGrasse Tyson would have happily tweeted some pointers if the filmmakers had asked. Rian Johnson is said to have scrapped what was given to him and started afresh on the entire story. This is what he came up with? How many people at Lucasfilm signed off on this? I refuse to believe this was the most compelling plot they could have devised. It feels like the plot from some low-rent SyFy Channel series. It's the plot you'd come up with if you didn't have any budget to create actual effects, so you just hung some spaceship models in front of a black curtain and had your characters explain to the audience that, trust us, this is some action-packed shit happening right here.
Eh, yeah a low speed chase is not that exciting, but there was enough other stuff going on, particularly the Rey/Ren connection and showdown with Snoke to get us through to the finale on the salt planet IMO. As for the physics of it, it's Star Wars, it's never been as heavy on the science accuracy as Star Trek or a more serious movie like 2001.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
The c.a.s.i.n.o. world side story. So Finn and his new pal (Rey romance = ixnay? they barely share any screen time) jet off to Monaco to find the one, single person who can save the Resistance. But, oops, they get stopped by security guards because some redneck alien complained about their parking job. So they get tossed in jail, and it's all gonna be over, except – relief! – there's *another* genius codebreaker *right there* in the cell with them. What are the odds! Quick sidebar into some heavy-handed messaging about oppression, then let's save some animals, and then let's go find the magic hyperspace tracking device that of course Finn knows how to identify because as a janitor he has been privy to all of the Empire's most critical warmaking facilities and technologies.
(Oh. Turns out Benicio is little more than an opportunistic hustler, so the whole mission ends up being for naught and this side adventure does absolutely bupkus to advance the plot.)
The hyperspace tracker. Hastily explained and confusingly arbitrary. Some ships (see: gambleland mission) can come and go at will, but the rest of the fleet has to keep it in low gear or get wiped out? So how many ships can the Empire track with this technology, exactly? If it's such a game-changer, why is it housed in a hallway server closet that's so lightly guarded that three strangers in stolen laundry and a bumbling trashcan can just roll right up and start poking at circuits? If being tracked (through hyperspace) was such a problem for the Resistance, what difference does that make since they end up touching down on salt world in full view of the Empire anyway?
Sure, this whole subplot didn't really go anywhere, but I did like the commentary on war profiteering and criticizing the cesspool of places like Vegas etc was pretty spot on IMO. Plus, they introduced the kid who shows up at the end and maybe he is in the next one? I also enjoyed a classic Benicio scumbag character, seems like he hasn't played one of those in a long time and I thought he was great.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Supreme Leader Snoke. Here's a guy whose appearance raised so many questions in Force Awakens and was given such import. Remember when they even spoiled a sweet Han-Leia scene by bringing up his dumb name? ("It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side." Ugh. So bad. This guy had better be worth it, we're telling ourselves.) Well, turns out the new filmmakers had no idea what to do with the dude so let's just kill him halfway through. In a way that makes no sense given how much real-time intuition he's supposed to have. What was this guy's relationship to the Sith? To the force? To the Empire? To Vader? How did we go from one dead Emperor to someone seemingly just as powerful and then he's out of the picture without any explanation? Why was his face so horribly scarred to the point where he simply *had* to be done as a fake CGI character instead of played by a real person? Never you mind. None of that matters.
Yeah chucking Snoke in the trash with no backstory bugged me at first too, but is there really anything interesting about this character? Seems like just another generic villain and Kylo Ren is the far more compelling bad guy. Rather than doing script acrobatics in an attempt to flesh out a caricature, I think the decision to kill him off was probably a better choice.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Rey's training. Grouchy Luke says go away a lot. Changes his mind. Here's a 15-minute lesson. Boom, all done. (With a quick visit to the house of mirrors for no apparent reason at all.)
Well her training wasn't completed, so who knows where that was going, but she cut it short before it got there.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Laura Dern's character. Utterly useless. Why keep her heroic plan a secret at all, much less for so long? I literally couldn't tell if she was a secret Empire agent, just an idiot, or what. It prompted an unnecessary mutiny, for god's sake. And when she wasn't being arbitrarily obtuse, she was spouting clichés of the most abominable sort.
Ackbar's death. Mentioned in a quick piece of dialog. OK. Shit. Do the filmmakers realize how beloved that character is? Why not have him go out like Laura Dern and ax her role altogether?
I love Adm Ackbar, everybody loves Adm Ackbar, but let's be honest, he probably had 2-3 minutes of screentime in ROTJ. While he may be a major character in our minds, he wasn't really that important in the movies themselves.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Leia's fake death scene. You know the audience is on edge the whole film over this. So she gets blown out in a quick flash of CGI, and we tighten up, but instead she does some lame CGI skywalking to save herself. A clunky way to handle all of that. (Not to mention, it makes me wonder why she's never used the force to help out all her comrades who are getting blown up left and right. Even force rookie Rey uses it to literally save the whole gang at the end.)
This seems like one of the biggest points of contention in the whole movie and I personally had no problem with it. They've never fully explained Leia's relationship with the force, she's not a Jedi, not sure why she isn't, yet she is strong with the force. I guess she never really bothered to develop it completely? Doesn't really make sense, but that's a choice that was made for TFA and fully on JJ. It's not unreasonable to assume that moments away from her death she was able to tap into her largely unrealized force connection and utilize it at a higher level.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Luke's fake death scene. First, he shows up inside a mountain bunker that we're told has no other ways in or out. He and Leia have a moment. We assume he's real. Probably took his soggy X-wing to get there? How'd he get inside again? (Nevermind, Poe will say something later about it; incidental.) Then Kylo fires a bunch of lasers at him. We have no reason to believe this isn't his most unceremonious end. Hux mutters a quip that seems designed to elicit chuckles. Except we still think Luke Skywalker has just died. Jesus Christ, help us out here, Rian. OK, he's not dead but we still don't know why not. Force hologram. OK, fine. But why does his hologram have a bad haircut? Scruffy Luke looks much better. And then, poof. I don't mind this decision all that much — it's echoes of Obi-Wan — but by this point in the film I was so disheartened and disengaged that the (actual, really though) death of Luke Motherfucking Skywalker had very little impact on me. Even Rey and Leia have an (unintentionally ironic) exchange later about how Luke's death didn't upset them. Uh huh.
Too many attempts at comedy. Comedy at inopportune times. Comedy that lazily called back to Force Awakens jokes. Comedy that undermined semi-important things we've already been told, like how Luke the hermit went to hide by himself in the remotest part of the galaxy, he was so ashamed, except actually he's had maid service the whole time. Whatever, anything for some jokes. And the porgs. So. Many. Porgs.
The dialog. Cheesy, wooden, rushed, disjointed.
I liked the jokes, although I do think they'll become a little more tiresome upon repeat viewings. There weren't all that many porgs, they didn't take over the movie or anything. As for the dialog, the prequels still make TLJ script look like Reservoir Dogs.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Rey's backstory. Hey, remember all those hints we dropped in Force Awakens? Definitely some kind of Skywalker lineage in there, gotta be. Luke dolls, Luke flashbacks, force abilities, Snoke seems to know her, Unkar Plutt is in on it, yadda yadda. Well forget all that. Just some desert orphan. That fits our "the force is universal" message better. And maybe it does. But still, that pesky matter about the film that came just prior... But wait! This info did come from Kylo Ren, after all, and he has an agenda, so who's to say he's even credible? Maybe he was simply lying to Rey. If so, now we're going to string this mystery out over three whole episodes and confuse the audience to hell in the process? Bollocks.
Seems to me that this is almost certainly a fake out, which if it is, I'm fine with. Nothing wrong with throwing the audience off the scent with a feint. If they really are nobodies, then yeah, disappointing.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Luke almost murdered a kid. So, at the end of Jedi, Luke learns the Big Important Lesson that there's good in anyone and even the evilest Vaders can be redeemed. But on the other hand, this bratty teen gives me the skeevies, so off with his head. JK! Mind you, this is all done via flashbacks and he-said-he-said. If I'm Rey I have no idea who or what to believe. So Luke could tell back then that Ben was irredeemably evil. But in the last movie we were told it was Snoke who was responsible for his evilness. Step aside folks, Rian has a few story ideas to put out there!
Another common criticism, LUKE WOULD NEVER DO THAT!!! Well, what do we know about Luke? This is a guy who has lost nearly everything to the dark side: his father, growing up with his sister, his aunt and uncle that were parents to him his whole life, his own hand. So yeah, the guy's been traumatized a bit by the dark side. What else do we know? He's impulsive, reckless, remember this is the guy Yoda never wanted to train in the first place because of these shortcomings! So you combine these two things and when he finds a powerful dark side presence right under his nose, he freaks out and for a moment thinks he needs to snuff it out. He comes to his senses and wasn't actually going to do it, but alas it is too late and he incurs the full wrath of Ben/Kylo Ren. Seems logical to me.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Rey's force intuitions. She literally uses her certainty that she had a true premonition about Kylo pulling a good deed to justify her certainty that there's no such thing as a certain future. But Kylo did kill Snoke. (Good deed? Self-serving deed? You decide!) So, Rey's intuitions = correct while near-murderous Jedi Master Luke = clueless? Yoda, help pls
Uh, I can't even parse this one. You may just be overthinking things slightly.
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
The thing about arms dealers. If anyone who can snag a parked spaceship is able to saunter over the hologram table and learn how the same guys sell weapons to both the Empire and the Resistance, there's no reason to assume the Empire doesn't have this same information. And there's no way in hell they would abide that. Nice attempt at a message about the military-industrial complex and nihilism and all that, but it's transparently dubious.
I mean this type of thing literally happens in real life, so yeah it might also be plausible in a movie with a seven foot tall dog and a green puppet guru master. Did I mention that you may be overthinking things?
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Re-filming the final shot of Force Awakens. That Rey-Luke moment atop Jedi Island was visually and emotionally powerful. This time around, though, we need to have a gag, so let's just redo that scene, strip it of its artistic heft, and make way for comedy!
Gravity in space. We've got WWII-style bombers that have to fly directly over a target in order to drop bombs out of a hatch onto them. In space. Then, we have laser blasts that the Empire literally lobs on an arc toward other ships. In space.
Oh no, you went there, the gravity in space argument. I'll let you in on a little secret, there is gravity in space, it's what keeps us in our orbit and from hurtling away from the solar system. And an object as massive as the Dreadnought would absolutely be large enough to have its own gravitational field.
But, regardless of all that, I feel like we've seen WWII style bombers in a Star Wars movie before, hmmm, where was that. . .
Oh yeah, in the greatest Star Wars movie of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLtlcSR9A6M
Quote from: VDB on January 27, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Am I crazy or did Yoda's head look flat?
The laser battering ram. (Nitpicking here because I'm on a roll.) Wasn't it already starting to heat up the door when Finn flew right into its path? Shouldn't he have gotten cooked?
Not enough Chewie. More Chewie, less porg. Less porg with Chewie. More just Chewie.
I thought The Force Awakens was far from perfect, but I enjoyed it quite a bit. It felt like a Star Wars film and treated the characters with respect and consistency. I cannot say the same about The Last Jedi. I understand and can appreciate parts of what it was trying to accomplish, but the execution was riddled with problems and the story attempted too many midstream changes given all that had been established ahead of it.
After the travesty of the prequels, Force Awakens felt like a fairly definitive sign that peace and order had been restored to the Star Wars universe. Rogue One was, to me, a stumble, but as a non-canonical entry it didn't put me off too much. Last Jedi represents such a step backwards (plus the fact that Johnson had been awarded an entire new trilogy before management even bothered to hear what people thought of Last Jedi) that I have scant confidence in the brain trust at Lucasfilm. I will see the next episode more out of curiosity than excitement, which is a sad thing to say about my favorite film franchise of all time.
Oh well.
You didn't like Rogue One? I guess you don't want to see Star Wars movies do anything different than what we've already seen in the OT? I thought Rogue One was the best Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back and light years better than The Force Awakens, which was such a cynical rehash with no real inspiration or SW magic. When I left the theater after Rogue One, I thought "They finally did it, a Star Wars movie for adults! That was gritty and a little more violent and without a happy ending, that's what I've been waiting for!" But also with just the right amount of nostalgia, like throwing in gold leader and red leader into the final battle.
Similarly I like TLJ better than TFA because it's at the very least an attempt to take things in a different direction. Is it a perfect movie? No, not even close, I can't rank it above any of the OT movies, but for me it was far more satisfying than the ultimately pandering and hollow experience that was TFA, especially on repeat viewings. TLJ was bold, it took tons of risks and even changed the very rules that govern the force itself. Even if it fell on its face half the time, which tenacity in the face of failure is another theme of the movie btw, it at least had a coherent message and made you feel something. I think that it's getting such a polarizing reaction shows that it's a great movie, one brave enough to piss off some people and yet speaks to many others.
It is kind of unbelievable that Abrams gave Johnson no outline for this movie and just let him do his own thing. It kind of shows that Abrams really had no overarching vision for these movies and now, well, Episode IX should be interesting given that Johnson has shaken things up the way he did. I have a bad feeling™ JJ doesn't have it in him to tie this all together, but I'm excited to see him give it a shot.
love Rogue One.
PS: Marry me Felicity Jones!! :mrgreen:
The article about SOLO
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/han-solo-movie-star-wars-story-official-synopsis-plot-summary-a8163311.html
Ron Howard is now the director apparently.
Donald Glover is playing Lando which I missed before and is pretty cool...release date for end of May, no trailer yet though.
I too liked rogue one. I also liked TLJ better than TFA. I'm very ready to see the Han Solo story. Opie ftw.
I shall avoid the temptation to go tit for tat with you Hicks, or else we might be here forever. Suffice to say, I recognize the intensely polarizing effect this film has had and that mine is just one (cough correct cough) reaction to it. I've still only seen TLJ the one time, and I'll get around to seeing it again. Who knows, maybe I'll TOTALLY GET IT now that I'll know what I'm walking into and its myriad shortcomings will not catch me so off guard.
To elaborate on my reaction to Rogue One: I didn't much like it after my initial viewing, mainly because I did not give two shits about any of the characters. A film that utterly fails to make me care about its characters is, by almost any standard, not doing its job. RO also had some story problems (like that nonsense with the pilot and the brain-mushifying alien in the pokey), but mostly my gripes were character-related. Oh, and also fake Peter Cushing didn't do it for me. And Vader's lines were kinda bad. But, I did like the film more on my second viewing.
One quick rebuttal to your rebuttal. I will submit that there's plenty of reason to assume the bombs dropped onto Empire's asteroids may have in fact been propelled downward as opposed to being summoned by gravity. And indeed, some say (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/176403/how-did-bombs-fall-into-the-dreadnought) that's what was happening with the Dreadnaught scene. But if we have to get so deep in the physics weeds to maybe, possibly rationalize a critical element of the opening set piece to the entire film, perhaps a more considerate filmmaker would have spared his audience the immediate confusion of the whole thing. But I can't exactly identify what Rian Johnson was considering when he made this film, apart from his own ideas or ambitions. That's perfectly fine in many cinematic contexts. Not so much when you've been handed the keys to so freighted a franchise as this. I completely share your thoughts and concerns re: J.J. and IX.
Quote from: emay on January 29, 2018, 05:48:03 PM
The article about SOLO
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/han-solo-movie-star-wars-story-official-synopsis-plot-summary-a8163311.html
Ron Howard is now the director apparently.
Donald Glover is playing Lando which I missed before and is pretty cool...release date for end of May, no trailer yet though.
I'm sorry, this thread is reserved for Last Jedi hate only.
Quote from: emay on January 29, 2018, 05:48:03 PM
The article about SOLO
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/han-solo-movie-star-wars-story-official-synopsis-plot-summary-a8163311.html
Ron Howard is now the director apparently.
Donald Glover is playing Lando which I missed before and is pretty cool...release date for end of May, no trailer yet though.
Pretty shocked they haven't pushed that release date back as that was the original date before Howard took over.
Regardless, an object dropped from the bomber would absolutely be gravitationally attracted to a massive body like the Dreadnought.
I skimmed the word barf above and I agree with Ikki.
TL;DR
The Last Jedi is a kickass movie.
Quote from: Hicks on January 29, 2018, 07:26:49 PM
Regardless, an object dropped from the bomber would absolutely be gravitationally attracted to a massive body like the Dreadnought.
F = G(m1 * m2) / r^2
Is the dreadnought mass large enough to pull bombs straight down? I don't know.
They have tractor beams and also every giant ship with a bay magically keeps its door open to space with nobody getting sucked out.
Some suspension of disbelief in terms of physics has been required since day 1.
Quote from: kellerb on January 30, 2018, 09:10:53 AM
Quote from: Hicks on January 29, 2018, 07:26:49 PM
Regardless, an object dropped from the bomber would absolutely be gravitationally attracted to a massive body like the Dreadnought.
F = G(m1 * m2) / r^2
Is the dreadnought mass large enough to pull bombs straight down? I don't know.
They have tractor beams and also every giant ship with a bay magically keeps its door open to space with nobody getting sucked out.
Some suspension of disbelief in terms of physics has been required since day 1.
The bomber complaint is ridiculous.
All it takes is the slightest push out of the artificial gravity environment (which I don't see anyone questioning) of the bomber and the bomb is going to keep going on the same trajectory once it's in space.
Also, the bomb bay doors work just like the massive launch bays: with force fields.
Shit. If only I had, like, listed the bomber issue, like, 20th or something, in order to, like, indicate its unimportance relative to the other, like, really big problems with the film.
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 10:20:50 AM
Shit. If only I had, like, listed the bomber issue, like, 20th or something, in order to, like, indicate its unimportance relative to the other, like, really big problems with the film.
I disagree with what I read about most of those too.
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 10:20:50 AM
Shit. If only I had, like, listed the bomber issue, like, 20th or something, in order to, like, indicate its unimportance relative to the other, like, really big problems with the film.
Well it is the one point you chose to continue to defend, so there's that.
FWIW, I thought TLJ was a great movie, and one of the best of the series (up there with Rogue One for being a bit different, in my book). I don't really care that the science doesn't make sense - that's never been the point of Star Wars, which is clearly more fantasy, not sci-fi. The entire movie was about character development, not plot advancement - it's very hard to advance the storyline when the movie is forced to start literally 10 seconds after the last one ended. A slow "chase" and failed mission really just allowed us to get to know Finn better, and perhaps for him to get to know himself as a member of the rebels. Remember, about 72 hours before this entire movie took place, he was a stormtrooper with the First Order. I think there's a hell of a lot of :crazy: going on because nerds just like to nerd. Well, there's "healthy discussion" to be had about any movie, but all this rambling about "it's not Star Wars" or "WTF did they do??!" is not really adding anything except noise.
Quote from: Hicks on January 30, 2018, 11:05:26 AM
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 10:20:50 AM
Shit. If only I had, like, listed the bomber issue, like, 20th or something, in order to, like, indicate its unimportance relative to the other, like, really big problems with the film.
Well it is the one point you chose to continue to defend, so there's that.
In defense of my defense, you did act like it was the stupidest thing I could have mentioned, so I had to stand up for my integrity. And you'll note that I used the occasion to raise a broader point. But yes, you do make the appropriate counterpoint here.
Quote from: rowjimmy on January 30, 2018, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 10:20:50 AM
Shit. If only I had, like, listed the bomber issue, like, 20th or something, in order to, like, indicate its unimportance relative to the other, like, really big problems with the film.
I disagree with what I read about most of those too.
But Slim said I was eloquent. :cry:
Quote from: cactusfan on January 26, 2018, 04:20:54 PM
Just in case you want to be outraged by a contrary opinion, here's mine:
www.standbyformindcontrol.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-frog-named-mongo/
The TL;DR version: Worst Star Wars yet.
This was excellent.
Of all the criticisms of TLJ the "there's no gravity in space" is in fact the dumbest.
Mostly because, well, that's wrong.
Quote from: Hicks on January 30, 2018, 11:46:50 AM
Of all the criticisms of TLJ the "there's no gravity in space" is in fact the dumbest.
Mostly because, well, that's wrong.
Please, then, defend the lobbed laser blasts while you're at it.
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: Hicks on January 30, 2018, 11:46:50 AM
Of all the criticisms of TLJ the "there's no gravity in space" is in fact the dumbest.
Mostly because, well, that's wrong.
Please, then, defend the lobbed laser blasts while you're at it.
Asking someone to defend, or even really caring about, the science of Star Wars is a sign that you're doing Star Wars wrong.
Quote from: rowjimmy on January 30, 2018, 12:21:19 PM
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: Hicks on January 30, 2018, 11:46:50 AM
Of all the criticisms of TLJ the "there's no gravity in space" is in fact the dumbest.
Mostly because, well, that's wrong.
Please, then, defend the lobbed laser blasts while you're at it.
Asking someone to defend, or even really caring about, the science of Star Wars is a sign that you're doing Star Wars wrong.
It was a rhetorical request (which should have been obvious) because there is no defending it (also obvious) yet there's been a lot of recent chatter focusing on one other inconsequential item mentioned in the same breath as that. So I'm criticizing selectivity.
What other stupid arguments should we have today?
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 12:30:05 PM
Quote from: rowjimmy on January 30, 2018, 12:21:19 PM
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: Hicks on January 30, 2018, 11:46:50 AM
Of all the criticisms of TLJ the "there's no gravity in space" is in fact the dumbest.
Mostly because, well, that's wrong.
Please, then, defend the lobbed laser blasts while you're at it.
Asking someone to defend, or even really caring about, the science of Star Wars is a sign that you're doing Star Wars wrong.
It was a rhetorical request (which should have been obvious) because there is no defending it (also obvious) yet there's been a lot of recent chatter focusing on one other inconsequential item mentioned in the same breath as that. So I'm criticizing selectivity.
What other stupid arguments should we have today?
Is the Cleveland Indian's mascot really that racist?
It is, but not until next year.
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 04:14:25 PM
It is, but not until next year.
Don't worry, their name will continue to be racist for at least another 5 years...
Quote from: tet on January 31, 2018, 08:32:09 AM
Quote from: VDB on January 30, 2018, 04:14:25 PM
It is, but not until next year.
Don't worry, their name will continue to be racist for at least another 5 years...
Cleveland?
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/cleveland/images/4/43/Cleveland_ClevelandDance_v3F.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100929205639)
For those of you who don't Twitter, I'm going to share with you a smart thread of reasonable relevance.
Here's the link to the first tweet: https://twitter.com/patrickhwillems/status/959204374047350789
Quote from: Patrick Willems @patrickhwillems
Watching The Empire Strikes Back and wow all this comedy with C-3PO while Luke is almost dying is so out of place. Irvin Kershner ruined Star Wars.
Ugh and now Han and Leia are basically in a romantic comedy. Get this corny "humor" out of Star Wars.
Luke has telekinesis now?? Way to break the whole mythology.
So that giant asteroid worm can breathe in space? It should've died in seconds. Good to know this movie doesn't care about physics AT ALL.
Jesus I'm waiting for Luke to find the badass Jedi master and there's just these endless scenes of a dumb muppet stealing his food. Did he land on fucking Sesame Street?
Wait, Darth Vader, ultimate badass villain, is just a lackey to some crusty old dude? Does this old dude even have a name?? Where did he come from?
How are these TIE Fighters dropping bombs when THERE'S NO GRAVITY IN SPACE?? ?? ??
My boy Han Solo FINALLY gets some action and then it's ruined with more 3PO comedy like it's suddenly a god damn Inspector Clouseau movie
Luke is on some kind of vision quest in a haunted cave? How many times can one movie break its own mythology?
Oh sure you're telling me a Star Destroyer has no cameras or anything to detect a whole spaceship just sitting on its surface? No one's gonna look out a damn window and see it?
What's with the dumb subplot where Vader keeps murdering his admirals? The Imperial army is suddenly a wacky comedy routine and they expect us to take them seriously?
Isn't this series supposed to be about a war? This whole movie is about hanging out in a swamp or going on a road trip. What's the whole Rebel army doing? Shouldn't they be trying to, like, win?
Vader can just deflect blaster shots with his hand?? Why does he even need a lightsaber? Are they just making up new powers as they go?
And now Luke can just HEAR his friends from across the galaxy? So the Force is basically a psychic radio?
Yoda: "Don't go, it's a trap."
Luke: "I'm gonna go."
Leia: "Luke stop it's a trap!"
Luke: *keeps going*
How do they expect us to root for a protagonist this stupid? All suspension of disbelief: gone
Two days of training and Luke is suddenly a better fighter than Ben Kenobi #lackofconsistency
Wow so that movie went nowhere, they got rid of the best character, and the mythology makes no sense now.
Fuck Irvin Kershner and Lawrence Kasdan.
Please my petition to have The Empire Strikes Back removed from canon.
Donate to my Patreon.
That guy gets it.
Clever.
Unpersuasive, but clever.
As best I can tell, our takeaway options include the following:
1. Star Wars movies have always been this crappy. I assume that's not the actual proposition here.
2. Flawed Movie A can be – and, by god, IS – just as great as Flawed Movie B. But flaws have degrees.
3. Anyone can twist anything to make any movie seem lousy, even if it wasn't. In that case what's the point of film criticism anymore?
Happy Friday, I love you all.
I don't think anybody is saying film criticism is pointless, but if you offer a critique, be prepared for your criticisms to be critiqued as well.
Of course. The internet is perfectly designed for us to go round and round on that sort of thing with glee.
Quote from: rowjimmy on February 02, 2018, 08:25:44 AM
For those of you who don't Twitter, I'm going to share with you a smart thread of reasonable relevance.
Here's the link to the first tweet: https://twitter.com/patrickhwillems/status/959204374047350789
Quote from: Patrick Willems @patrickhwillems
Watching The Empire Strikes Back and wow all this comedy with C-3PO while Luke is almost dying is so out of place. Irvin Kershner ruined Star Wars.
Ugh and now Han and Leia are basically in a romantic comedy. Get this corny "humor" out of Star Wars.
Luke has telekinesis now?? Way to break the whole mythology.
So that giant asteroid worm can breathe in space? It should've died in seconds. Good to know this movie doesn't care about physics AT ALL.
Jesus I'm waiting for Luke to find the badass Jedi master and there's just these endless scenes of a dumb muppet stealing his food. Did he land on fucking Sesame Street?
Wait, Darth Vader, ultimate badass villain, is just a lackey to some crusty old dude? Does this old dude even have a name?? Where did he come from?
How are these TIE Fighters dropping bombs when THERE'S NO GRAVITY IN SPACE?? ?? ??
My boy Han Solo FINALLY gets some action and then it's ruined with more 3PO comedy like it's suddenly a god damn Inspector Clouseau movie
Luke is on some kind of vision quest in a haunted cave? How many times can one movie break its own mythology?
Oh sure you're telling me a Star Destroyer has no cameras or anything to detect a whole spaceship just sitting on its surface? No one's gonna look out a damn window and see it?
What's with the dumb subplot where Vader keeps murdering his admirals? The Imperial army is suddenly a wacky comedy routine and they expect us to take them seriously?
Isn't this series supposed to be about a war? This whole movie is about hanging out in a swamp or going on a road trip. What's the whole Rebel army doing? Shouldn't they be trying to, like, win?
Vader can just deflect blaster shots with his hand?? Why does he even need a lightsaber? Are they just making up new powers as they go?
And now Luke can just HEAR his friends from across the galaxy? So the Force is basically a psychic radio?
Yoda: "Don't go, it's a trap."
Luke: "I'm gonna go."
Leia: "Luke stop it's a trap!"
Luke: *keeps going*
How do they expect us to root for a protagonist this stupid? All suspension of disbelief: gone
Two days of training and Luke is suddenly a better fighter than Ben Kenobi #lackofconsistency
Wow so that movie went nowhere, they got rid of the best character, and the mythology makes no sense now.
Fuck Irvin Kershner and Lawrence Kasdan.
Please my petition to have The Empire Strikes Back removed from canon.
Donate to my Patreon.
You can play this game with anything you want, the "let's take any story and describe it all stupid-like so we can pretend any criticism levelled against something I like doesn't count."
The reason no one has ever said any of that about Empire is because it's never actually occurred to anyone.
The reason people have a boatload of criticisms about Disney's latest worldwide product/film release is because it is riddled with problems.
If you don't agree with the criticims, respond to them. This crap here is not only whataboutism, it's make-believe whataboutism. "But what about the fact that this other movie you like isn't perfect," is utterly feeble and nonsensical a response as it is, but changing it to, "But what about how I can make up pretend criticism about a movie everyone loves" is just sad.
A little angry about a joke.
"utterly feeble and nonsensical"?
lol
Quote from: Rian Johnson
It wasn't coming into it and thinking, 'Okay, they're expecting this. Let's have him toss the lightsaber. Ha, ha, ha.' The reason he did that was because I can't imagine any other honest reaction from him to that moment.
...So, that leads you down a really specific path in terms of where his head is at. And if he's done that and if he's made this huge Herculean effort to pull himself out of the fight, to hide in, like he says, 'The most unfindable place in the galaxy,' it took an entire movie for the most heroic, smartest people in the galaxy to even find him, he's put himself away.
Then some kid shows up that he doesn't know and shoves this thing that is everything that he has made this huge effort to step away from into his face with this look in her eyes of expectation like, 'Here you go,' and what is he going to do? Take it and say, 'Great. Let's go save the galaxy.' He's made this choice. He's there for a reason. I knew it was going to be shocking, but I did it because it felt like, obviously it's a dramatic expression of it, but it's an expression of honestly the way that he is going to react to that moment.
I finally watched this movie again.
As parody I love it.
Quote from: VDB on June 17, 2018, 01:57:38 PM
I finally watched this movie again.
As parody I love it.
It always felt to me like the hateful wives of some huge Star Wars nerds got together and said "we could write a stupid Star Wars movie", then somehow got the contract
Your dislike of this film is amusing.
Too bad for you guys.
I still love it.
If anybody like David Chang of momofuko and the spicy chicken sandwich, he has a new podcast that has an interview with rian the director that's pretty good. Of course I like the food podcast side of it, but still..
Quote from: antelope19 on December 18, 2017, 11:19:00 PM
First- I loved the movie and think it's a fantastic step for the franchise.
That said, this movie is far from perfect.
My issues with the movie-
Leia into space and then coming back
Yoda all of a sudden being like nah, fuck it, Luke. She's good. Those Jedi texts are Boring as fuck anyway.
Luke, in general. Winking at C3PO, dusting his shoulder off, etc.
Complete and total dismissal of Ackbar. "Oh by the way, that guy died".
Plot line of let's just wait until they run out of gas is pretty weak, IMO
Snoke....zero character development and killed way too easily. He clearly has a lot of respect for the history of the dark side(or maybe just Vader?) and is pretty powerful. Cool side note: his ring is made From obsidian cut from below Vader's temple.
Just watched the movie for the third time, first outside of the theaters. It's amazing how much the movie has grown on me. The initial shock of some of things mentioned above has waned and I still feel this movie is great. I'm even more excited for the next movie.
Still need to see Solo.
Watched this again the other day. Still good.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/854/41857307540_0b853e202a_c.jpg)
Quote from: rowjimmy on July 16, 2018, 08:41:31 AM
Watched this again the other day. Still good.
Now that it's on Netflix and I have the house to myself on Saturday, I plan on finally giving it a second viewing. I haven't yet decided if I'll fast-forward through the whole 'Finn on the gambling planet' scene, but it is a thought I have. I just felt like that scene did nothing for the movie.
Quote from: mistercharlie on July 27, 2018, 06:41:28 AM
Quote from: rowjimmy on July 16, 2018, 08:41:31 AM
Watched this again the other day. Still good.
Now that it's on Netflix and I have the house to myself on Saturday, I plan on finally giving it a second viewing. I haven't yet decided if I'll fast-forward through the whole 'Finn on the gambling planet' scene, but it is a thought I have. I just felt like that scene did nothing for the movie.
Don't.
The message of that sequence is one of the primary themes of the film.
yeah, just reupped my netflix and saw they had it.
thought about whether i wanted to watch it agin or not.
i saw it in theatre and then when it dropped on digital a few months back.
bottom line is its pretty messed up that just thinking about this film gives me zero inspiration to watch it again.
even the prequels which i rewatched dozens of times that i came to hate b/c of Hayden's acting i still get motivated to skim through.
Thinking of rewatching this film on the other hand led my brain through most of the major sequences and each one comes up stinking of hot garbage... not the good kind either like the trash compactor from the Death star.
I literally cant think of a single scene that didnt let me down in one way or another, or at the very least pass as inconsequential filler.
---well, maybe exempting the scenes with Chewbacca, -cause wookies, but that only probably adds up to 10 minutes... :shakehead:
I just don't get the hate towards this movie. I feel like everyone drank the Kool-Aid from the Russian bots trying to sink Disney... and it proves that they're still just as powerful as they were in 2016.
:frustrated:
Quote from: rowjimmy on July 27, 2018, 08:39:01 AM
Quote from: mistercharlie on July 27, 2018, 06:41:28 AM
Quote from: rowjimmy on July 16, 2018, 08:41:31 AM
Watched this again the other day. Still good.
Now that it's on Netflix and I have the house to myself on Saturday, I plan on finally giving it a second viewing. I haven't yet decided if I'll fast-forward through the whole 'Finn on the gambling planet' scene, but it is a thought I have. I just felt like that scene did nothing for the movie.
Don't.
The message of that sequence is one of the primary themes of the film.
Ah, maybe I'll have a better appreciation for that scene on my second viewing.
I drank way too much bourbon-barrel aged beer last night and my hungover ass is definitely just going to be lying on the couch, smoking, and trying to recover. That's the perfect setting for a Star Wars day.