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Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?

Started by emay, July 20, 2012, 09:35:53 AM

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sls.stormyrider

#105
a "liberal" with a slightly different view -
I don't like guns.
except for target shooting, hunting, and the kind of thing nab was talking about, I am against carrying guns in public.
I think firearms should be regulated much more tightly then they are
but - if someone is attacking you (or your family) with what a reasonable person might assume lethal intent (gun, knife, club), I see nothing wrong in doing whatever you can to defend yourself.

that does NOT mean people should be able to arm themselves to the teeth, defending against a govt plot, the helicopters coming from the sky, or whatever. I also am strongly against the use of lethal force in a situation where non lethal force will suffice. A gun in the wrong hands might confuse that situation, though, which scares me.

in my world, the chance of me getting attacked are low enough that if I did carry a gun, it would be more likely to be used against me or incorrectly than to save my life. And, when I did live in a high crime area (inner city Brooklyn for 4 years) me responding to a bad situation with a gun would be more likely to result in me being dead then if I just gave up my $ (as per ytowndan). fortunately, the only crimes I was a victim of back then were non violent (robberies, break ins, etc)
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

VDB

GAH, that's why it's called concealed carry. People aren't supposed to see the firearm, and therefore won't have the reaction you describe. I have never once seen a random person in public and noticed, yup, that guy's got a gun right there. And I'm sure that by sheer odds, I've been around plenty of people who were carrying.

APD, I don't mind running into resistance. That's perfectly fine, and I'm not expecting to convert anyone here. I'm OK disagreeing with people. What I'm being frustrated in is my attempts to bridge what I perceive to be a large divide between why my actual motives and thinking around the concepts and scenarios described here are, and what seems to be the outside perception of my motives and behaviors -- which apparently includes such things as whacking panhandlers for sport, walking into movie theaters with a gun on my hip, shooting people who look at me the wrong way at a bar, compensating for my diminutive trouser snake, etc.

And then, there's the as-yet-unanswered question of whether people here simply don't believe in owning or carrying firearms -- perfectly an acceptible stance to take -- or whether they don't acknowledge the difference between bad people and good people, and don't believe that good people have a compelling reason to protect themselves from the actions of bad people.

And please don't try to reduce life-or-death scenarios to a grade-school "he started it" spat. This is entirely different. If someone starts slashing me or my wife with a knife, yes, he really did f'in start it, and therefore I'm severely disinclined to heed arguments that I should yield my own life (or my wife's) to an attacker because his is somehow worth more than mine in that moment.

sls, thank you for that allowance. It is precisely what self-defense laws are designed to authorize. That's it.
Is this still Wombat?

gah

I'm not arguing your right to defend yourself. So we (you and I) can put that to the side.

But do you not see your elevated sense of paranoia towards your fellow man, and irrational fears (i.e. the inability to leave your house to see a movie without being armed) as being abnormal? Because to me, it sounds like the sort of thing you should talk to a professional about, almost like PTSD. And if not, and that's just something more people than I care to know are walking around with similar beliefs, then I'm with matt and APD and others in thinking, damn, this country is fuuuuucked up. Rather than believe in the good in your fellow man, your baseline is that everyone but you, as stated before (I'll have faith in myself), is inherently evil. Nothing wrong with that, if it's your viewpoint. I just think it's a sad way to live.

/judgemental dickhead
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

rowjimmy

I find interesting that you don't address me directly. Is it because your "the law says blah blah" position doesn't stand up to the moral questions that I raise?

The law may say you can shoot and kill a guy with a knife but I SER one killer and one dead guy with a knife. Put a gun in his hand, and maybe he's killed a few more people before you shoot him. I still see two killers.

You have no moral right to serve as judge and executioner an thats your intent when you strap on a gun.

The law is wrong.

aphineday

I also don't debate your right to defend yourself - NON LETHALLY.
Death is death, just because you were attacked doesn't make you better for pulling the trigger.
Also, those incidents (as mentioned above) are so incredibly low that even if you do believe you have the right to mortally wound someone, it still does not necessitate carrying a gun.

Time to get emotional again:

I guess you're right though, I shouldn't reduce it to a "grade school 'he started' it spat". If someone starts something with you, you should be able to pull that trigger, man! They can take my gun when they pry it "from my cold, dead hands". Guess we can have your guns now, cocksucker. What a piece of shit that guy is too.
Fuck this, arguing the point is stupid.
Keep your gun it's your GOD GIVEN RIGHT!!!!
YAY 'MERICA.
If we could see these many waves that flow through clouds and sunken caves...

PIE-GUY

Like RJ said, the law says you can defend yourself with your gun in many cases... That does not make it right.

The law also allows the Boy Scouts of America to discriminate against gays... And the BSA is in compliance with the law. That does not make them right.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... By carrying a gun with the intent to have there for self defense, you are saying that you value your own human life over another persons human life. I can't make that leap. I find that position morally reprehensible.
I've been coming to where I am from the get go
Find that I can groove with the beat when I let go
So put your worries on hold
Get up and groove with the rhythm in your soul

barnesy305

This argument is going to go nowhere and on the verge of getting personal and nonconstructive.

aphineday

Quote from: barnesy305 on July 21, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
This argument is going to go nowhere and on the verge of getting personal and nonconstructive.
Maybe it needs to get personal.
That being said, you're right on the non constructive part.
If we could see these many waves that flow through clouds and sunken caves...

gah

Quote from: barnesy305 on July 21, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
This argument is going to go nowhere and on the verge of getting personal and nonconstructive.

Get Bent!

USA! USA! USA!
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

barnesy305

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 21, 2012, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: barnesy305 on July 21, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
This argument is going to go nowhere and on the verge of getting personal and nonconstructive.

Get Bent!

USA! USA! USA!

+k

aphineday

Quote from: barnesy305 on July 21, 2012, 12:43:50 PM
Quote from: goodabouthood on July 21, 2012, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: barnesy305 on July 21, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
This argument is going to go nowhere and on the verge of getting personal and nonconstructive.

Get Bent!

USA! USA! USA!

+k
Lol! Was literally typing the same thing when you posted... also 24 hr'd. :/
If we could see these many waves that flow through clouds and sunken caves...

mbw

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 21, 2012, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: barnesy305 on July 21, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
This argument is going to go nowhere and on the verge of getting personal and nonconstructive.

Get Bent!

USA! USA! USA!


VDB

GAH, there's obviously a line somewhere between preparedness and paranoia, and different people have their own definitions of where that line falls. By far, most people are good and intend no harm to others; I have no quarrel with that statement. But facts demonstrate that there are, from time to time, people who don't have such pure regard for their fellow man, and sometimes their behaviors have terrible consequences on the lives of innocent people and their loved ones.

I promise you I'm not walking around in a constant paranoid fit, looking over my should with an itchy trigger finger. Nor are any of the other people I know who have concealed carry permits. You might be surprised. Maybe it's a cultural thing -- I know polite, mild-mannered, perfectly calm people down here, including women, who have their permit. There are millions of people nationwide with concealed carry permits, and I bet some of them fit the description you've applied to me, and still others haven't. And I bet that we've all met some pretty whacked-out, paranoid people who don't have a concealed carry permit.

No, I don't think of it like paranoia or a complete lack of faith in the goodness of every stranger I see. It's more like insurance. Think of all the insurance policies people carry, that cover them for all kinds of very unlikely yet very devastating hypothetical scenarios. You hope you never have to cash in that policy. But it's nice to know it's there if you need it. That's pretty much the extent of my relationship with carrying a firearm.

rowjimmy, judges and juries would be cold comfort for my grieving widow or family, assuming they were able to catch my assailant and put him on trial.

I'm raising moral questions as well, upon which we clearly don't see eye to eye:

1. Say one individual attacks another or presents the imminent threat of mortal violence. Only one individual is likely to emerge from that encounter alive. Would it be better for the attacker to emerge alive and his innocent victim dead, or for the victim to emerge alive after having used necessary defensive force to preserve his own life? I see a moral question here and you know what my answer is.

2. Say, as in the scenario I described earlier, I find my wife (or another innocent person) coming under violent attack from an assailant and I have the choice of either saving the victim's life by dispatching the assailant, or allowing the attack to continue to its likely devastating conclusion. I see a moral issue here as well, and you know what I believe would be my obligation.
Is this still Wombat?

VDB

Quote from: PIE-GUY on July 21, 2012, 12:33:39 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again... By carrying a gun with the intent to have there for self defense, you are saying that you value your own human life over another persons human life. I can't make that leap. I find that position morally reprehensible.

PG, I value my own life over that of a person who is attempting to take mine from me, yes. I do not find that position to be morally reprehensible. That is all self-evident based on the views I have on self-defense.

I understand and respect the contrasting view you have on the matter, and I do not find your position to be morally reprehensible, either.
Is this still Wombat?

rowjimmy

This is a dead end so I'm gonna wrap it here before I get annoyed.


Last word from me: Killing is not a right. It is always a wrong.