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Occupy Wall Street

Started by JPhishman, October 06, 2011, 06:18:43 PM

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gah

No, I  understand how your comments relate to education, as well. But as for this idea of a level playing field, the chance of a male born into the lowest economic 20% making it into the top 40% is his lifetime as compared to someone starting in the middle 40% already, is less than half, iirc (from a recent article in Time, cover: Can You Still Move Up in America?). Point being, you can't start at 2nd base and brag about how you got a double and look down upon those still sitting in the dugout, when they haven't even got a chance to bat yet. Being born into a middle class family puts you at a greater advantage than someone born into poverty. While the opportunities exist, as rjb and you point out, the starting point to reaching those opportunities, you have to admit, are staggered. So is the played field really level?

As for the American Dream....lol. I'm not even going to get into it with you guys. Phil, yeah, I'm sure you'll be just fine if you bust your ass. You'll more than likely have enough to live large or spend time with your family.
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

gah

Quote from: nab on November 21, 2011, 03:32:01 PM
Quote from: goodabouthood on November 21, 2011, 02:59:25 PM
Quote from: nab on November 21, 2011, 02:21:50 PM

I'm frustrated with the lack of suggestion as to what to do about the problem.  At no other time has the Democratic party had such an opprotunity to make a case for radical reform (a case that would have to be accepted by the majority of the public to be sucessfully implimented, imo) and yet no clear direction or proposals from the left have been offered (as far as I'm aware of).  The right, predictably, has used this opprotunity to belittle the movement, mostly through ad hominum attacks on the protesters themselves.  Part of the right's ability to do this is that no clear arguements as to what to do about the disparity are being offered.  It's hard to have a battle of ideas in an areana of generality.

Has the increased police brutality shown against the protesters made me more sympathetic to their movement?  You bet it has, but this sympathy is more general and arises from my concern over 1st ammendment abuse and overzealous use of authority.  I'm still wondering what the next step is going to be.  I want an argument presented with storng conviction as to what to do about the wealth gap in the United States.  I wish I had one, and maybe that is the problem, maybe no one knows what to do about the problem.

But is it the responsibility of the protesters to also present answers to the injustices that exist? While most can see and feel and experience the inequalities that they're arguing against, I seriously don't expect them to understand the inner workings of the laws that have made the system what it is. As I said before, asking the politicians to work for the people might be too much to ask at this point with the system as fucked as it is, but I see it as THEIR duty to find answers and make the changes. Is it not enough to say, hey, we see what you're doing and we think it's fucked up and while I don't know how to fix it, you do. So please do so. If nothing else, it should be a reminder that You, the politicians, are supposed to be representing Us, the people.



I thought I made it pretty clear that I was looking to the Democratic party to offer solutions.  Hell, I'd take them from the republican party.  I don't, however, expect any such solutions to materialize from either party, I was just mentioning that now would be the time to show some leadership to really represent the American people.  The underlying point ot my argument is that there have been no solutions offered becasue both parites profit from not fixing the system.  If faced with that sort of situation, how is it not appropriate to suggest that leadership and argument come from the movement?

Ah yeah, I understand that. Valid point. Now WOULD be the perfect time for EITHER party to offer solutions and show some true leadership. But as you stated, neither will, because both are too entrenched in the system to dismantle it completely. It's kind of like fixing healthcare, you can't just start over, so you have to try and implement some changes to what already exists. The easiest, and from my understanding that which the OWS folks are after as well (as one of their points), is taking $ out of politics. Personally, I think that'd make a HUGE difference in the way our elected officials behave towards the betterment of our society.
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

UncleEbinezer

Quote from: goodabouthood on November 21, 2011, 03:37:40 PM
No, I  understand how your comments relate to education, as well. But as for this idea of a level playing field, the chance of a male born into the lowest economic 20% making it into the top 40% is his lifetime as compared to someone starting in the middle 40% already, is less than half, iirc (from a recent article in Time, cover: Can You Still Move Up in America?). Point being, you can't start at 2nd base and brag about how you got a double and look down upon those still sitting in the dugout, when they haven't even got a chance to bat yet. Being born into a middle class family puts you at a greater advantage than someone born into poverty. While the opportunities exist, as rjb and you point out, the starting point to reaching those opportunities, you have to admit, are staggered. So is the played field really level?

As for the American Dream....lol. I'm not even going to get into it with you guys. Phil, yeah, I'm sure you'll be just fine if you bust your ass. You'll more than likely have enough to live large or spend time with your family.

You're point about someone born into poverty is a good one, but I think brings on a whole different conversation altogether.  I'm not saying lets ignore that, but you and I may have to argue that one over beers.

The American Dream!  Dude, your living it.  Unfortunately right now, you're living the downside of it right now, but lets be real, it does exist and you got into it for a reason right?

I am interested to hear your thoughts on this.  I'll admit you are right that coming from a middle class family does skew some thoughts and I'm willing to hear the other side.  Probably over beers too.   :beers:
Quote from: bvaz
if you ever gacve me free beer, I'd bankrupt you  :-D

runawayjimbo

Quote from: goodabouthood on November 21, 2011, 03:41:51 PM
Quote from: nab on November 21, 2011, 03:32:01 PM
Quote from: goodabouthood on November 21, 2011, 02:59:25 PM
Quote from: nab on November 21, 2011, 02:21:50 PM

I'm frustrated with the lack of suggestion as to what to do about the problem.  At no other time has the Democratic party had such an opprotunity to make a case for radical reform (a case that would have to be accepted by the majority of the public to be sucessfully implimented, imo) and yet no clear direction or proposals from the left have been offered (as far as I'm aware of).  The right, predictably, has used this opprotunity to belittle the movement, mostly through ad hominum attacks on the protesters themselves.  Part of the right's ability to do this is that no clear arguements as to what to do about the disparity are being offered.  It's hard to have a battle of ideas in an areana of generality.

Has the increased police brutality shown against the protesters made me more sympathetic to their movement?  You bet it has, but this sympathy is more general and arises from my concern over 1st ammendment abuse and overzealous use of authority.  I'm still wondering what the next step is going to be.  I want an argument presented with storng conviction as to what to do about the wealth gap in the United States.  I wish I had one, and maybe that is the problem, maybe no one knows what to do about the problem.

But is it the responsibility of the protesters to also present answers to the injustices that exist? While most can see and feel and experience the inequalities that they're arguing against, I seriously don't expect them to understand the inner workings of the laws that have made the system what it is. As I said before, asking the politicians to work for the people might be too much to ask at this point with the system as fucked as it is, but I see it as THEIR duty to find answers and make the changes. Is it not enough to say, hey, we see what you're doing and we think it's fucked up and while I don't know how to fix it, you do. So please do so. If nothing else, it should be a reminder that You, the politicians, are supposed to be representing Us, the people.



I thought I made it pretty clear that I was looking to the Democratic party to offer solutions.  Hell, I'd take them from the republican party.  I don't, however, expect any such solutions to materialize from either party, I was just mentioning that now would be the time to show some leadership to really represent the American people.  The underlying point ot my argument is that there have been no solutions offered becasue both parites profit from not fixing the system.  If faced with that sort of situation, how is it not appropriate to suggest that leadership and argument come from the movement?

Ah yeah, I understand that. Valid point. Now WOULD be the perfect time for EITHER party to offer solutions and show some true leadership. But as you stated, neither will, because both are too entrenched in the system to dismantle it completely. It's kind of like fixing healthcare, you can't just start over, so you have to try and implement some changes to what already exists. The easiest, and from my understanding that which the OWS folks are after as well (as one of their points), is taking $ out of politics. Personally, I think that'd make a HUGE difference in the way our elected officials behave towards the betterment of our society.

As nab says, at some point, someone has to step up and offer solutions to the problems the protesters are addressing and the politicians who profit from the current system are no more likely to fix them than the bankers are. If OWS chooses to focus less on solutions and more on general strikes or calls to shut down this port or that bridge, they will run the risk of further falling out of public favor and alienating the people they claim to represent.

As for your other point, I'm not convinced that taking money out of politics (which I assume you mean in the form of campaign contributions) is as much of a game changer as people seem to think. While politicians are explicitly bought by the exorbitant amount of donations now, there are still plenty of incentives corporations can use to tacitly buy an influential member of the Senate Banking Committee or the House Appropriations Committee. That's why my position is that as long as gov't has favors to hand out, there will always be people lining up to pay for them.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

gah

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on November 21, 2011, 04:12:01 PM
Quote from: goodabouthood on November 21, 2011, 03:37:40 PM
No, I  understand how your comments relate to education, as well. But as for this idea of a level playing field, the chance of a male born into the lowest economic 20% making it into the top 40% is his lifetime as compared to someone starting in the middle 40% already, is less than half, iirc (from a recent article in Time, cover: Can You Still Move Up in America?). Point being, you can't start at 2nd base and brag about how you got a double and look down upon those still sitting in the dugout, when they haven't even got a chance to bat yet. Being born into a middle class family puts you at a greater advantage than someone born into poverty. While the opportunities exist, as rjb and you point out, the starting point to reaching those opportunities, you have to admit, are staggered. So is the played field really level?

As for the American Dream....lol. I'm not even going to get into it with you guys. Phil, yeah, I'm sure you'll be just fine if you bust your ass. You'll more than likely have enough to live large or spend time with your family.

You're point about someone born into poverty is a good one, but I think brings on a whole different conversation altogether.  I'm not saying lets ignore that, but you and I may have to argue that one over beers.

The American Dream!  Dude, your living it.  Unfortunately right now, you're living the downside of it right now, but lets be real, it does exist and you got into it for a reason right?

I am interested to hear your thoughts on this.  I'll admit you are right that coming from a middle class family does skew some thoughts and I'm willing to hear the other side.  Probably over beers too.   :beers:

If you have any questions regarding the American dream, simply google "end of the American dream", or "shrinking middle class", and you'll find more than enough articles to keep you busy reading for a few days.

But you're right, we can discuss this over  :beers:
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

sls.stormyrider

Meanwhile the Deficit Committee gave up today (no surprise).

I feel like taking out a full page ad in the Washington Post:

Hey Congress - Why the fuck don't you grow up already?


whose in?
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

nab

Quote from: slslbs on November 21, 2011, 10:38:08 PM
Meanwhile the Deficit Committee gave up today (no surprise).

I feel like taking out a full page ad in the Washington Post:

Hey Congress - Why the fuck don't you grow up already?


whose in?




I'm in

birdman

Quote from: nab on November 22, 2011, 12:52:40 AM
Quote from: slslbs on November 21, 2011, 10:38:08 PM
Meanwhile the Deficit Committee gave up today (no surprise).

I feel like taking out a full page ad in the Washington Post:

Hey Congress - Why the fuck don't you grow up already?


whose in?




I'm in


It's only 32000 bucks for the back page of the Post on Sunday.
I've got $10 to throw in.
Paug FTMFW!

rowjimmy

Quote from: birdman on November 22, 2011, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: nab on November 22, 2011, 12:52:40 AM
Quote from: slslbs on November 21, 2011, 10:38:08 PM
Meanwhile the Deficit Committee gave up today (no surprise).

I feel like taking out a full page ad in the Washington Post:

Hey Congress - Why the fuck don't you grow up already?


whose in?




I'm in


It's only 32000 bucks for the back page of the Post on Sunday.
I've got $10 to throw in.

In for $10.

Website might be cheaper.

gah

Quote from: rowjimmy on November 22, 2011, 07:50:07 AM
Quote from: birdman on November 22, 2011, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: nab on November 22, 2011, 12:52:40 AM
Quote from: slslbs on November 21, 2011, 10:38:08 PM
Meanwhile the Deficit Committee gave up today (no surprise).

I feel like taking out a full page ad in the Washington Post:

Hey Congress - Why the fuck don't you grow up already?


whose in?




I'm in


It's only 32000 bucks for the back page of the Post on Sunday.
I've got $10 to throw in.

In for $10.

Website might be cheaper.

In.

Also,
Quote from: Superfreakie on November 21, 2011, 12:01:20 AM
you know it's serious when sl leaves out the *&%% signs.  :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

runawayjimbo

Here's an excellent article that illustrates my position that policy decisions created perverse incentives and unintended consequences which led to the banks' excessive risk taking and ultimate failure. It also presents a few market driven solutions that address the root causes of this behavior more than wealth redistribution would and would lead to more cautious risk management activities.

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/11/22/how_government_props_up_big_finance_99381.html

One of the proposed solutions seems to have been concocted by our very slslbs:

Quote
Bank managers should also have more skin in the game. If a bank fails or receives a bailout, directors, senior managers and highly compensated employees should have to repay creditors or the government at least a portion of past compensation they received from their failed institutions - particularly compensation tied to performance. Fear of impoverishment would have a substantial impact on the risk appetites for those leading major financial institutions.

Quote from: slslbs on October 15, 2011, 12:47:30 PM
Should someone who sold a mortgage that was defaulted get their commision? From my understanding about retail sales, if someone brings a product back, the salseperson doesn't get credit for the sale. Why shouldn't the same be true in this game.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

sls.stormyrider

I had a few beers with those guys last week. The least they could have done is give me credit.
:-)

good article.
other points I liked a lot

Quotethe crony capitalist system that has masqueraded as a free market.

QuoteThese regulations usually failed to achieve their intended results - especially over the long term - because financial institutions are able to wear down the restrictions by lobbying and by hiring away key regulators.

unfortunately, this influence will fight against and probably prevent the solution that rjb quoted from ever happening.
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

sls.stormyrider

from Michael Moore

QuoteHere is what I will propose to the General Assembly of Occupy Wall Street:

10 Things We Want
A Proposal for Occupy Wall Street
Submitted by Michael Moore
1. Eradicate the Bush tax cuts for the rich and institute new taxes on the wealthiest Americans and on corporations, including a tax on all trading on Wall Street (where they currently pay 0%).

2. Assess a penalty tax on any corporation that moves American jobs to other countries when that company is already making profits in America. Our jobs are the most important national treasure and they cannot be removed from the country simply because someone wants to make more money.

3. Require that all Americans pay the same Social Security tax on all of their earnings (normally, the middle class pays about 6% of their income to Social Security; someone making $1 million a year pays about 0.6% (or 90% less than the average person). This law would simply make the rich pay what everyone else pays.

4. Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act, placing serious regulations on how business is conducted by Wall Street and the banks.

5. Investigate the Crash of 2008, and bring to justice those who committed any crimes.

6. Reorder our nation's spending priorities (including the ending of all foreign wars and their cost of over $2 billion a week). This will re-open libraries, reinstate band and art and civics classes in our schools, fix our roads and bridges and infrastructure, wire the entire country for 21st century internet, and support scientific research that improves our lives.

7. Join the rest of the free world and create a single-payer, free and universal health care system that covers all Americans all of the time.

8. Immediately reduce carbon emissions that are destroying the planet and discover ways to live without the oil that will be depleted and gone by the end of this century.

9. Require corporations with more than 10,000 employees to restructure their board of directors so that 50% of its members are elected by the company's workers. We can never have a real democracy as long as most people have no say in what happens at the place they spend most of their time: their job. (For any U.S. businesspeople freaking out at this idea because you think workers can't run a successful company: Germany has a law like this and it has helped to make Germany the world's leading manufacturing exporter.)

10. We, the people, must pass three constitutional amendments that will go a long way toward fixing the core problems we now have. These include:

a) A constitutional amendment that fixes our broken electoral system by 1) completely removing campaign contributions from the political process; 2) requiring all elections to be publicly financed; 3) moving election day to the weekend to increase voter turnout; 4) making all Americans registered voters at the moment of their birth; 5) banning computerized voting and requiring that all elections take place on paper ballots.

b) A constitutional amendment declaring that corporations are not people and do not have the constitutional rights of citizens. This amendment should also state that the interests of the general public and society must always come before the interests of corporations.

c) A constitutional amendment that will act as a "second bill of rights" as proposed by President Frankin D. Roosevelt: that every American has a human right to employment, to health care, to a free and full education, to breathe clean air, drink clean water and eat safe food, and to be cared for with dignity and respect in their old age.


some interesting ideas
3. 4, and 5 are certainly reasonable. I like 9 and 2.
As far as 1 goes, we've been debating that here for months. There was a transaction tax on WS transactions up until the 60s or 70s - I think they're asking for 0.5% (that's right, one half of one per cent), which also seems reasonable

the other ones sound good, but I think are impractical
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

runawayjimbo

Thanks for sharing, sls, but I had a hard time with that list. With the exception of #5, these are not serious proposals. If OWS wants to bring change to the system and make a difference, they should tell Moore to go back to his million dollar lake house and ask him to stop exploiting them for his next movie. If they choose to embrace these ideas, the movement will lose all relevancy in the political conversation IMO. Like you said, populism may sound good, but there is very little connection between these proposals and the real world and not just because the GOP are intransigent assholes. I would get specific, but that probably wouldn't lead anywhere good so I'll leave it alone for now.

Also, OWS mic checked Obama's speech last night and then a protester got close enough to hand him a note. WTF? Doesn't the Secret Service remember what happened in 24 when someone handed the president a note?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/occupy-protestor-hands-president-obama-note-201229558.html



Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

mbw

Quote from: runawayjimbo on November 23, 2011, 12:46:08 PM
...they should tell Moore to go back to his million dollar lake house and ask him to stop exploiting them for his next movie.

lol.  yeah, moore is a real johnny come lately on the issue of corporate greed   :roll:

and i believe the end of his last movie called for this type of action.