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Started by rowjimmy, March 19, 2008, 03:08:28 PM

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Undermind

Trey at Darien Music Center on 8/13/09 while paying respect to Les Paul
Quote...and hopefully we'll be playing well into our nineties and hopefully you guys will be there too


Phish Video Collection Blog

rowjimmy


runawayjimbo

Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

Hicks

Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

mbw

but it's written on old-timey parchment!

runawayjimbo

Quote from: Hicks on July 13, 2012, 11:11:17 AM
lol, you really should know better.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln/prosperity.asp

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

1) You think I look into this shit before I post it? Pfft
2) Just cause Lincoln didn't say it doesn't make it any less true.
3) Lincoln was actually kind of a dick who didn't think the slaves were equal and supported plans to send them back to Africa. Of course, I probably learned that from the Internet too so who knows if that's true (see #1).
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

phil

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
3) Lincoln was actually kind of a dick who didn't think the slaves were equal and supported plans to send them back to Africa. Of course, I probably learned that from the Internet too so who knows if that's true (see #1).

It can definitely be argued that the Emancipation Proclaimation was a tactical maneuver designed to weaken the Confederacy's war effort rather than an example of Lincoln being compassionate/benevolent. Dude was no more or less racist than the average american back then was (which was very).
Quote from: guyforget on November 15, 2010, 11:10:47 PMsure we tend to ramble, but that was a 3 page off topic tangent on crack and doses for breakfast?

Hicks

Quote from: phil on July 13, 2012, 01:47:44 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
3) Lincoln was actually kind of a dick who didn't think the slaves were equal and supported plans to send them back to Africa. Of course, I probably learned that from the Internet too so who knows if that's true (see #1).

It can definitely be argued that the Emancipation Proclaimation was a tactical maneuver designed to weaken the Confederacy's war effort rather than an example of Lincoln being compassionate/benevolent. Dude was no more or less racist than the average american back then was (which was very).

Regardless of all that, the fact is that Lincoln freed the slaves.

Does his motivation really matter?
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

nab

Sure it matters if you are a historical scholar. 

Hicks

Quote from: nab on July 13, 2012, 02:16:49 PM
Sure it matters if you are a historical scholar.

Which I'm not, I'm just a guy that can spot a fake Abraham Lincoln quote from a mile away.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

mbw

Quote from: phil on July 13, 2012, 01:47:44 PM
It can definitely be argued that the Emancipation Proclaimation was a tactical maneuver designed to weaken the Confederacy's war effort rather than an example of Lincoln being compassionate/benevolent. Dude was no more or less racist than the average american back then was (which was very).

is that what they teach you down there? he was no john brown but he quite morally opposed to slavery.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
3) Lincoln was actually kind of a dick who didn't think the slaves were equal and supported plans to send them back to Africa. Of course, I probably learned that from the Internet too so who knows if that's true (see #1).

you're thinking of jefferson.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
2) Just cause Lincoln didn't say it doesn't make it any less a pile of horseshit

fyp.

if by 'pulling down the wage payer' you mean companies having to pay workers a just wage, not avoid paying taxes with every loophole found by their army of lawyers, and actively lobbying to lessen regulation on environmental laws, labor laws, trade laws and anything else that might take a dollar out of their bloated pockets.

and then the rest of that nonsense....

mbw


runawayjimbo

Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on July 13, 2012, 03:06:15 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
3) Lincoln was actually kind of a dick who didn't think the slaves were equal and supported plans to send them back to Africa. Of course, I probably learned that from the Internet too so who knows if that's true (see #1).

you're thinking of jefferson.

No, I'm quite sure Lincoln also supported sending them back to Africa.

You're right he was morally opposed to the institution of slavery, but he also didn't believe they would be able to integrate into society once freed and viewed this (as many at the time did) as the most just remedy. Much like our current President, his views evolved, though it wasn't some astounding feat of altruism but a political calculus (again, sounds familiar). It was because once the slaves were freed and 200,000 served in the Union army, he couldn't very well say, "Hey, thanks for joining us against the dudes who used to whip and rape you. Now get on this boat so someone else can come force you into bondage." So, in that sense, phil is also right that a large (not the only, but a large) motivation behind the Emancipation Proclamation was to strengthen the Union ranks as much as it was to end what Lincoln saw as an unjust institution.

Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on July 13, 2012, 03:06:15 PM
if by 'pulling down the wage payer' you mean companies having to pay workers a just wage, not avoid paying taxes with every loophole found by their army of lawyers, and actively lobbying to lessen regulation on environmental laws, labor laws, trade laws and anything else that might take a dollar out of their bloated pockets.

and then the rest of that nonsense....

Strap in because this might blow your mind: I agree with you that businesses do everything they can to circumvent current rules and write new ones in their favor (although I think it probably occurs more than I would care to admit and less than you would). The difference is that I don't believe the solution to that is to give the gov't more control and thus be more subject to regulatory capture by the industries and businesses they are trying to regulate. I also don't know when employment, which is supposed to be a voluntary contract between two parties, suddenly became Royal Rumble XXIV between the workers and the Romneys. But I will never believe that the most corrupt people in the world (elected officials and regulators) will help guide us to prosperity because they are smart enough to steer the economy in exactly the way they predict without any unintended consequences. I saw Back to the Future, so I know what happens when you try to change things you shouldn't.
Quote from: DoW on October 26, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
I'm drunk but that was epuc

Quote from: mehead on June 22, 2016, 11:52:42 PM
The Line still sucks. Hard.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:56 PM
well boys, we fucked up by not being there.

nab

Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on July 13, 2012, 03:06:15 PM
Quote from: phil on July 13, 2012, 01:47:44 PM
It can definitely be argued that the Emancipation Proclaimation was a tactical maneuver designed to weaken the Confederacy's war effort rather than an example of Lincoln being compassionate/benevolent. Dude was no more or less racist than the average american back then was (which was very).

is that what they teach you down there? he was no john brown but he quite morally opposed to slavery.





Wait a second, are we talking about the Emancipation Proclamation or the 13th Amendment?  There is a difference.  The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the jurisdictions over which Lincoln had power as Commander in Chief; that is in the states that were in active rebellion with the Union.  Northern and Western slaves were not technically emancipated until the the passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865. 

Some scholars argue that passage of the 13th Amendment is proof of Lincoln's deep seeded moral abhorrence for slavery (even though it wasn't ratified until month's after his death), while other argue that it's passage is a product of an overzealous Johnson presidency in the heady days of early reconstruction, a period marked by strict reparations from the north which moved to eliminate the cultural patrimony of the south in American politics. 

Either way, the argument that the EP was at least part strategic is salient and valid.  This is especially important if the document is framed in the context of the war at the time of it's issuance; when the northern war effort was struggling against a year (1862) of some pretty staggering southern victories. 



And I agree with this:

Quote from: Hicks on July 13, 2012, 02:26:41 PM
Quote from: nab on July 13, 2012, 02:16:49 PM
Sure it matters if you are a historical scholar.

I'm just a guy that can spot a fake Abraham Lincoln quote from a mile away.

sunrisevt

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2012, 09:57:46 PM
Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on July 13, 2012, 03:06:15 PM
Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
3) Lincoln was actually kind of a dick who didn't think the slaves were equal and supported plans to send them back to Africa. Of course, I probably learned that from the Internet too so who knows if that's true (see #1).

you're thinking of jefferson.

No, I'm quite sure Lincoln also supported sending them back to Africa.

You're right he was morally opposed to the institution of slavery, but he also didn't believe they would be able to integrate into society once freed and viewed this (as many at the time did) as the most just remedy. Much like our current President, his views evolved, though it wasn't some astounding feat of altruism but a political calculus (again, sounds familiar). It was because once the slaves were freed and 200,000 served in the Union army, he couldn't very well say, "Hey, thanks for joining us against the dudes who used to whip and rape you. Now get on this boat so someone else can come force you into bondage." So, in that sense, phil is also right that a large (not the only, but a large) motivation behind the Emancipation Proclamation was to strengthen the Union ranks as much as it was to end what Lincoln saw as an unjust institution.


Are you as sure of this as you were of the authorship of that proto-prosperity gospel poster? Take a minute.
Quote from: Eleanor MarsailI love you, daddy. Actually, I love all the people. Even the ones who I don't know their name.