I was thinking of a way we could create a forum/thread that would allow people to vote on sources (one vote per source maybe) so that we could construct a tool that automatically rates our favorite tapes by vote. Then we could link to those etree sources or link the ISO forum for requests of said sources. Thoughts?
As a side note, G. Augusto has agreed to go back and listen to all sources of phish that exist and post links to etree links for said shows that he will totally like seed foreva and shit.
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 01:04:51 AM
As a side note, G. Augusto has agreed to go back and listen to all sources of phish that exist and post links to etree links for said shows that he will totally like seed foreva and shit.
I am doing this as well, have been working up since 1992....
This is sorely needed in the Phish cannon, and this is the best place to do it.
I fear that any such dialogue may denigrate into minutiae like GD sources.
Quote from: Ifthir on November 04, 2009, 01:37:47 AM
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 01:04:51 AM
As a side note, G. Augusto has agreed to go back and listen to all sources of phish that exist and post links to etree links for said shows that he will totally like seed foreva and shit.
I am doing this as well, have been working up since 1992....
Jeff Mitchell is doing this as well and has a blog that is running along with it. He started his listening project at 1990.
Quote from: Superfreakie on November 04, 2009, 03:42:55 AM
Quote from: Ifthir on November 04, 2009, 01:37:47 AM
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 01:04:51 AM
As a side note, G. Augusto has agreed to go back and listen to all sources of phish that exist and post links to etree links for said shows that he will totally like seed foreva and shit.
I am doing this as well, have been working up since 1992....
Jeff Mitchell is doing this as well and has a blog that is running along with it. He started his listening project at 1990.
TLTG (Too lazy to google)
Please post link
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 01:04:51 AM
I was thinking of a way we could create a forum/thread that would allow people to vote on sources (one vote per source maybe) so that we could construct a tool that automatically rates our favorite tapes by vote. Then we could link to those etree sources or link the ISO forum for requests of said sources. Thoughts?
As a side note, G. Augusto has agreed to go back and listen to all sources of phish that exist and post links to etree links for said shows that he will totally like seed foreva and shit.
I was being sarcastic about Mr. Augusto :-D ....he may be doing that but I'm not looking for someone to go back, just a place for us to record things moving forward.
I know the db will keep all the sources, what I'm looking to do is have a vote system (or something) that allows us to rate sources so that someone can swoop in, see the recommended sources and link right to said torrents.
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 02:35:34 PM
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 01:04:51 AM
I was thinking of a way we could create a forum/thread that would allow people to vote on sources (one vote per source maybe) so that we could construct a tool that automatically rates our favorite tapes by vote. Then we could link to those etree sources or link the ISO forum for requests of said sources. Thoughts?
As a side note, G. Augusto has agreed to go back and listen to all sources of phish that exist and post links to etree links for said shows that he will totally like seed foreva and shit.
I was being sarcastic about Mr. Augusto :-D ....he may be doing that but I'm not looking for someone to go back, just a place for us to record things moving forward.
I know the db will keep all the sources, what I'm looking to do is have a vote system (or something) that allows us to rate sources so that someone can swoop in, see the recommended sources and link right to said torrents.
I would love an organized database of source recommendations! I've never been one to 'collect' every availiable source. I'll grab every source, and then keep the one that pleases me most, but It'd be better to see other peoples recommendations and save myself the time and bandwidht of getting all the seeding sources.
Quote from: Mistercharlie on November 04, 2009, 02:41:04 PM
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 02:35:34 PM
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 01:04:51 AM
I was thinking of a way we could create a forum/thread that would allow people to vote on sources (one vote per source maybe) so that we could construct a tool that automatically rates our favorite tapes by vote. Then we could link to those etree sources or link the ISO forum for requests of said sources. Thoughts?
As a side note, G. Augusto has agreed to go back and listen to all sources of phish that exist and post links to etree links for said shows that he will totally like seed foreva and shit.
I was being sarcastic about Mr. Augusto :-D ....he may be doing that but I'm not looking for someone to go back, just a place for us to record things moving forward.
I know the db will keep all the sources, what I'm looking to do is have a vote system (or something) that allows us to rate sources so that someone can swoop in, see the recommended sources and link right to said torrents.
I would love an organized database of source recommendations! I've never been one to 'collect' every availiable source. I'll grab every source, and then keep the one that pleases me most, but It'd be better to see other peoples recommendations and save myself the time and bandwidht of getting all the seeding sources.
Quote from: Mistercharlie on November 04, 2009, 02:41:04 PM
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 02:35:34 PM
Quote from: disco on November 04, 2009, 01:04:51 AM
I was thinking of a way we could create a forum/thread that would allow people to vote on sources (one vote per source maybe) so that we could construct a tool that automatically rates our favorite tapes by vote. Then we could link to those etree sources or link the ISO forum for requests of said sources. Thoughts?
As a side note, G. Augusto has agreed to go back and listen to all sources of phish that exist and post links to etree links for said shows that he will totally like seed foreva and shit.
I was being sarcastic about Mr. Augusto :-D ....he may be doing that but I'm not looking for someone to go back, just a place for us to record things moving forward.
I know the db will keep all the sources, what I'm looking to do is have a vote system (or something) that allows us to rate sources so that someone can swoop in, see the recommended sources and link right to said torrents.
I would love an organized database of source recommendations! I've never been one to 'collect' every availiable source. I'll grab every source, and then keep the one that pleases me most, but It'd be better to see other peoples recommendations and save myself the time and bandwidht of getting all the seeding sources.
I was planning on doing it in SQL server 2008. Any help is appreciated. It would work exponentially faster if we all pick years/tours.
For what it's worth, the Indio shows, the gotfob sources sound best so far. Anyone recommend any others?
Here you go guys. Jeff Mitchell's blog. I think this is the 1990 page. He started it just recently and is making some headway....dude's been busy, 1990 is nearly done.
http://jmitchell20042003.blogspot.com/ (http://jmitchell20042003.blogspot.com/)
Thanks for the link SF
This would be great. I have multiple sources of many shows, but would like to trim my collection down to the best one (which may be one I don't have). I would also love the opportunity to discuss why these recordings are great or not.
This is like the ultimate Week4paug Show Club.
I think a "best source" link would be a great addition to the wiki or a "top 3" with how many out of how many votes the particular source got.
Like:
1997-xx-xx
Neumann mics > DAT > FLAC 25 out of 40 votes
Schoeps mics > DAT > CDR > EAC > SHN 13 out of 40 votes
Quote from: Superfreakie on November 04, 2009, 09:52:02 PM
Here you go guys. Jeff Mitchell's blog. I think this is the 1990 page. He started it just recently and is making some headway....dude's been busy, 1990 is nearly done.
http://jmitchell20042003.blogspot.com/ (http://jmitchell20042003.blogspot.com/)
Jeff loves my Fall '90 remasters :-D
You did those 24 bit remasters, mattstick? Were you weave@furthur?
I've kind of hit a stuck point on my blog. It's a little tedious writing something about every single show you listen to, especially if you're trying to do it in order. Shows start running together, start sounding the same, you loose focus on what you are trying to do. :frustrated: I took a break. I need to get back into it because it is actually a fun project to be doing, but for right now it's on the back burner. I'd like to hear other people's feedback, good or bad, agreements or disagreements on some of what I have written. It was started mainly for me to have some kind of reference to go back and review when I want to listen to a show, so keep that in mind. The reviews are cut and dry, very short and to the point. You aren't going to be reading a 10 minute long review, they are all about a paragraph each.
Quote from: jmitchell20042003 on November 05, 2009, 04:59:35 PM
Shows start running together, start sounding the same, you loose focus on what you are trying to do.
Yeah, my memory sort of gave up hanging on to dates, all the colors have run together to create brown. I tend to remember tours and not specific shows. I just upped all of 1995 in the LL project, listened to every show and sure enough, three weeks after the fact and I remember shit all as to what I liked and disliked, it's all brown again. And the Dead for me is even worse, it's beyond brown.
I have a few thoughts on this subject, for what they are worth...
1- "Best source" is subjective, though I think through carefully conducted voting, a "majority preferred" source can be identified.
2- DB.ETREE comments is a great place to make comments about the quality of a particular source. It could be as simple as "I prefer this source (db ID#) over this source (another db ID#)" posted on both the shows comments sections.
3- I think "best" criteria should depend on year, or clumps of years. With so many excellent sources for 97 forward, it may be pointless to try to pick out a "best" (see #1 above). And for some early shows, it may not be a fair comparison of sources, ie. a poorer quality source may be more complete than a better sounding source.
I wonder if perhaps a 10pt rating system for each source is a better solution???
Like I said, what they are worth... Personally, I think every source is "best" as they all present things uniquely.
Terry
edit: I would suggest #2 above. Its easy and if used en masse, it could be a useful way to identify good sources - if 10 people say they prefer the first source over the second, I would be more likely to seek out the first.
Quote from: twatts on November 05, 2009, 10:46:29 PM
1- "Best source" is subjective, though I think through carefully conducted voting, a majority preferred source can be identified.
Subjective is the result of differences of playback systems. Headphones move sound in a completely different way than speakers and speakers vary tremendously. My speakers cost me nearly 30,000$. So let's say the majority of folks reviewing a source are doing it with headphones, which I am not disparaging as cans kick ass, but how does that voting serve me. It's useless unless you are a headphone listener. Because if we are going to be finicky about this, which I think we have to be, then I have more than a few nights where certain sources sound better in my cans than the speakers and vice versa. By the way, I say this not because I'm trying to poopoo this project because I think it desperately needs to be done, and admittedly there are some sources that sound like shit in any playback system but I think you understand the dilemma........
I like the tally of vote idea more as a temporary tool to help sift through these piles of sources we get now. When I first posted this is was to see if we could collectively decide which 3 sources for 8 sounded we liked best. Look how many sources popped up for Hampton or 8...now that I have more bw it's easy to grab everything and compare but it's still a pain in the ass. Those older shows usually have a source or two, typically the higher the db# the better the show should sound as the transfer technology always gets better.
We could just do a poll for each show in a particular forum, adding sources as vote options when they appear on etree, each person can vote once and change it....might work
Quote from: disco on November 06, 2009, 12:12:38 AM
I like the tally of vote idea more as a temporary tool to help sift through these piles of sources we get now. When I first posted this is was to see if we could collectively decide which 3 sources for 8 sounded we liked best. Look how many sources popped up for Hampton or 8...now that I have more bw it's easy to grab everything and compare but it's still a pain in the ass. Those older shows usually have a source or two, typically the higher the db# the better the show should sound as the transfer technology always gets better.
We could just do a poll for each show in a particular forum, adding sources as vote options when they appear on etree, each person can vote once and change it....might work
Gotcha'
http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=14035.0
above is the link to what I was talking about doing, just a pilot at this point. I figured Halloween was prolly the most grabbed show overall so I started my poll with that. Like I said, trying to create a quick and easy to use tool to help us filter our archives to have the best of the sources out there. I am all for keeping all recordings alive, but we should ensure the best sources get circ'd heavily so in 10 years they are what are the most common. Plus this will help some people with their listening practices and we explore our own.
Quote from: disco on November 06, 2009, 04:49:22 AM
http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=14035.0
above is the link to what I was talking about doing, just a pilot at this point. I figured Halloween was prolly the most grabbed show overall so I started my poll with that. Like I said, trying to create a quick and easy to use tool to help us filter our archives to have the best of the sources out there. I am all for keeping all recordings alive, but we should ensure the best sources get circ'd heavily so in 10 years they are what are the most common. Plus this will help some people with their listening practices and we explore our own.
A positive by-product of this listening filter would inevitably arise from the discovery of dates in the modern era to which no source meets our standards and thus are in need of replacement. For example, when I ran the 2000 project at LL, I was surprised at how some dates' corresponding sources were extremely poor and few, while, at that point in the scene, there were many tapers and thus there must be better sources out there.
Quote from: Superfreakie on November 05, 2009, 10:59:18 PM
Quote from: twatts on November 05, 2009, 10:46:29 PM
1- "Best source" is subjective, though I think through carefully conducted voting, a majority preferred source can be identified.
Subjective is the result of differences of playback systems. Headphones move sound in a completely different way than speakers and speakers vary tremendously. My speakers cost me nearly 30,000$. So let's say the majority of folks reviewing a source are doing it with headphones, which I am not disparaging as cans kick ass, but how does that voting serve me. It's useless unless you are a headphone listener. Because if we are going to be finicky about this, which I think we have to be, then I have more than a few nights where certain sources sound better in my cans than the speakers and vice versa. By the way, I say this not because I'm trying to poopoo this project because I think it desperately needs to be done, and admittedly there are some sources that sound like shit in any playback system but I think you understand the dilemma........
I agree with this. Your speaker rig is not going to be the norm. I think we need a 'high-end' top source, and a 'low-end' top source. This way users get two perspectives.
Quote from: Superfreakie on November 06, 2009, 07:18:03 AM
Quote from: disco on November 06, 2009, 04:49:22 AM
http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=14035.0
above is the link to what I was talking about doing, just a pilot at this point. I figured Halloween was prolly the most grabbed show overall so I started my poll with that. Like I said, trying to create a quick and easy to use tool to help us filter our archives to have the best of the sources out there. I am all for keeping all recordings alive, but we should ensure the best sources get circ'd heavily so in 10 years they are what are the most common. Plus this will help some people with their listening practices and we explore our own.
A positive by-product of this listening filter would inevitably arise from the discovery of dates in the modern era to which no source meets our standards and thus are in need of replacement. For example, when I ran the 2000 project at LL, I was surprised at how some dates' corresponding sources were extremely poor and few, while, at that point in the scene, there were many tapers and thus there must be better sources out there.
very true...
Really beyond older tapes where maybe only a few sources exist doesn't there come a point where personal preferences are going to take over. At some point the taper section started to see numerous brands of mics. I know buddies who are Schoeps lovers and swear by them while I have always been a fan of U89's for pulling great tapes.
On a side note I am not sure if anyone grabbed the FOB TLM170's, but I was really impressed with the sound coming out of my speakers!
Quote from: disco on November 06, 2009, 04:49:22 AM
http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=14035.0
above is the link to what I was talking about doing, just a pilot at this point. I figured Halloween was prolly the most grabbed show overall so I started my poll with that. Like I said, trying to create a quick and easy to use tool to help us filter our archives to have the best of the sources out there. I am all for keeping all recordings alive, but we should ensure the best sources get circ'd heavily so in 10 years they are what are the most common. Plus this will help some people with their listening practices and we explore our own.
I like this idea, but I think it's worth noting that there's inevitably going to be a bias toward sources that are posted earlier. I noticed that for this last tour, most sources showed up after a few days, but there were often a few that popped up a week or two later. Regardless of their quality, those latecomers would not get as many votes because people won't wait that long to make their picks. I don't think that makes it not worth doing, but it's something to be aware of.
Quote from: factorz on November 07, 2009, 02:17:42 PM
Really beyond older tapes where maybe only a few sources exist doesn't there come a point where personal preferences are going to take over. At some point the taper section started to see numerous brands of mics. I know buddies who are Schoeps lovers and swear by them while I have always been a fan of U89's for pulling great tapes.
You're right that there's lots of subjectivity, but usually there are one or two consensus picks for every show, even with the insane amount of sources floating around nowadays. Just being able to narrow it down to two or three of the more popular sources to compare is going to be helpful to a lot of people who don't want to listen to 8 different sources for each show. I did that for the first leg of summer tour, and it gets kind of exhausting after a while.
I'm down with the 5 star rating system...depending on where this would reside, it could potentially be polluted by individuals confusing source quality with how they rate the show musically...I'm sitting here now pondering which F8 sources are the "best source" while I await some new harddrives. Any thoughts on the F8 sources?
Couldn't one add this to the wiki?
Yeah, we could wiki it. Any volunteers to start with this tour?
We could do each show in the ISO section, one poll per show (that way I can mod the section, unless someone else wants to, but I don't mind)
Maybe after 90 days the "best source" tag or Star Rating could be pulled from the poll and added to the Wiki. The tough part with a 1-5 ratimg system is that it becomes even more subjective. Using the poll/voting system allows the voting field to be perfectly level. Everyone gets one vote that they can change. We could just put a paug symbol next to the source with the highest votes. I wonder if we should just try to get the db to do the voting system, then everything would be in one place. Dan or Jason...is that a potential for the db? They prolly have something already that we haven't noticed.
Quote from: disco on November 11, 2009, 06:56:33 PM
Yeah, we could wiki it. Any volunteers to start with this tour?
We could do each show in the ISO section, one poll per show (that way I can mod the section, unless someone else wants to, but I don't mind)
Maybe after 90 days the "best source" tag or Star Rating could be pulled from the poll and added to the Wiki. The tough part with a 1-5 ratimg system is that it becomes even more subjective. Using the poll/voting system allows the voting field to be perfectly level. Everyone gets one vote that they can change. We could just put a paug symbol next to the source with the highest votes. I wonder if we should just try to get the db to do the voting system, then everything would be in one place. Dan or Jason...is that a potential for the db? They prolly have something already that we haven't noticed.
A 1-5 rating system would be a mess because then we would have to factor in a bunch of really subjective numbers for every single source and take the median for each show which could render our attempt at some semblance of objectivity useless. Plus, there are some sources that need not even be assessed. But, one problem with a single vote poll, is if we go selecting one favorite, then a great source may be dropped out of circ. The best example I can think of is Davis' Red Rocks B&K vs Lutch's Mk4v. Many, including myself in the beginning, immediately singled out the B&K's as the best source. However, when I ran the B&Ks vs the 24 bit mk4v through my real system, you'd have to be deaf to not hear that the mk4v pwns the B&K. But again, not everyone has the luxury of a kicking system, and the B&K, I believe, sounds better on mid range systems. However, with only one vote, let's say the B&K's get 80% of vote and then the other 20% goes to Taylor Caines source (votes by those judging sources with their mp3>ipod>earbud), then the mk4 gets pushed out. However, with two votes, those with decent playback systems would most likely go B&K then mk4v and then we would have the two best sources.....is this making any sense...no, probably not, it is 5 in the morning....I'm going to bed.
I'd be happy to add the info to the wiki. I love that thing!
I probably won't be involved too much in the individual source discussions, but if you either want to start a separate thread for best sources or PM me the info, I can edit the show pages with the week4paug best source picks. If the show is released by LivePhish, then you do not need to give me that because links to lp.com are already entered as part of the info.
All I would need from you guys is:
The date
A link to the source on db.etree.org
and whatever information you want included
Maybe a link to the voting thread
It would look something like this on the show page:
Week4paug's Best Source Picks (or if you have some other catchy name)
* http://db.etree.org/sourceID
** Voted on by 12 week4paug members; best on a home stereo
* http://db.etree.org/sourceID
** Voted on by 8 week4paug members; best on headphones
*Check out the voting thread here:
** http://weekypaug.net/thevotingthread
And I could tweak it however many times needed until everything's cool. Just keep me in the loop of what to change. I'm usually on the wiki doing some type of editing every day.
I will be gone all of next week, but after that I'm down for whatever.
Quote from: disco on November 11, 2009, 06:56:33 PM
Yeah, we could wiki it. Any volunteers to start with this tour?
We could do each show in the ISO section, one poll per show (that way I can mod the section, unless someone else wants to, but I don't mind)
Maybe after 90 days the "best source" tag or Star Rating could be pulled from the poll and added to the Wiki. The tough part with a 1-5 ratimg system is that it becomes even more subjective. Using the poll/voting system allows the voting field to be perfectly level. Everyone gets one vote that they can change. We could just put a paug symbol next to the source with the highest votes. I wonder if we should just try to get the db to do the voting system, then everything would be in one place. Dan or Jason...is that a potential for the db? They prolly have something already that we haven't noticed.
See my above post for the volunteering.
As far as I know, db.etree does not have some sort of voting system implemented. I also believe that if there were a system like that, the votes would get skewed over time with people rating the shows musically instead of the source itself, or not understanding. You just show up, throw in your vote and split.
At least with a forum-based discussion and voting, the people here (or wherever) would have a chance to discuss or do a little minor research and I think there would be more of a potential for getting a true consensus of the better sources out there. Is it imperative that every voter discusses why they voted the way they did? No, but the option to read and discuss in a central location is there.
If you were set on getting the etree community who do not use week4paug to vote as well, you could set up the exact same voting thread on forums.etree.org, but that place is often times just a graveyard. The same could be done on other sites such as phishhook.
Another few thoughts on the wiki:
You have most likely discussed this in this thread or elsewhere, but I think a definitive 16/44 source should be selected and a definitive 24/48, 24/96 or whatever should be selected as well (if applicable). There are alot of people who don't collect 24bit shows (myself included at the moment) or don't have the knowledge, confidence or desire to take a 24bit show and dither down to 16bit.
Also, with the wiki, multiple best sources can be listed no problem. That way, people can look at the individual sources and download what suits them best. "Gee, this one should sound awesome on my stereo", or "Can't wait to listen to this one on my new headphones", or "Should I buy a Neumann or a Schoeps mic - let me see what these two sound like" - So much different criteria is involved on an individual level that the Best Of would be most helpful as a guide. If two or more sources stand out for different reasons, it still will take 30 seconds to enter it in the wiki.
And I know how people like running various projects on bt.etree.org. This could lead to seeding projects like "Week4paug's Best Of Fall '97" or things of that nature or as I believe Superfreakie said, it may help us to discover shows with relatively low-quality sources and find upgrades.
I myself would use a Best Of guide compiled by week4paugers as my first-stop decision maker when shopping around for sources.
I didn't want to start a new thread, so I hope this gets a few views.
I agree that it would be helpful to have a 'best sources' list. I think it would be just as (more?) helpful for there to be a 'best shows' list. For example, a post over at jamtopia just mentioned the Springsteen 'Best 55 Boots' list. As an old-school Springsteen collector, I know that that list helped me to pick up on some tours that I might not have listened to otherwise.
Phish is similar in that there are soooo many shows to listen to, that it would be great to have some way to introduce a n00b without saying...go listen to all of Fall 93 (though you'll eventually want to). So, a Best Of is needed, IMHO
Quote from: AntelopeFreeway on November 15, 2009, 11:22:51 AM
I didn't want to start a new thread, so I hope this gets a few views.
I agree that it would be helpful to have a 'best sources' list. I think it would be just as (more?) helpful for there to be a 'best shows' list. For example, a post over at jamtopia just mentioned the Springsteen 'Best 55 Boots' list. As an old-school Springsteen collector, I know that that list helped me to pick up on some tours that I might not have listened to otherwise.
Phish is similar in that there are soooo many shows to listen to, that it would be great to have some way to introduce a n00b without saying...go listen to all of Fall 93 (though you'll eventually want to). So, a Best Of is needed, IMHO
fall 93 is the shit, just get that, you'll be fine.
A best shows list would be so hard. The subjectivity involved would be staggering. There is nothing like seeing the band live, pair that we a few of the other common things one may experience at a show and it's hard to separate your emotions and ears when it comes to shows you've attended.
Though I'm betting there's enough of us here with enough experience in trying to separate the two, we could prolly pick a top 5 for each year without too much arguing.
Quote from: disco on November 15, 2009, 03:05:33 PM
Quote from: AntelopeFreeway on November 15, 2009, 11:22:51 AM
I didn't want to start a new thread, so I hope this gets a few views.
I agree that it would be helpful to have a 'best sources' list. I think it would be just as (more?) helpful for there to be a 'best shows' list. For example, a post over at jamtopia just mentioned the Springsteen 'Best 55 Boots' list. As an old-school Springsteen collector, I know that that list helped me to pick up on some tours that I might not have listened to otherwise.
Phish is similar in that there are soooo many shows to listen to, that it would be great to have some way to introduce a n00b without saying...go listen to all of Fall 93 (though you'll eventually want to). So, a Best Of is needed, IMHO
fall 93 is the shit, just get that, you'll be fine.
A best shows list would be so hard. The subjectivity involved would be staggering. There is nothing like seeing the band live, pair that we a few of the other common things one may experience at a show and it's hard to separate your emotions and ears when it comes to shows you've attended.
Though I'm betting there's enough of us here with enough experience in trying to separate the two, we could prolly pick a top 5 for each year without too much arguing.
Well, as a starter, I think just picking a top 5 of each tour would be a great start, and probably not extremely difficult. When I started out, I found the list of "classic" shows at phish.net, and used that along with the classic tours list to start my listening. Again, just think it would be helpful...I think as 3.0 continues there will be more new traffic and the question will come up more often.