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Started by sophist, August 06, 2009, 09:48:07 AM

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guyforget

ANYWAY....

Lieberman, schmeberman.  I think that that in the end, Obama is the one who dropped the ball on the public option.
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fauxpaxfauxreal

Quote from: guyforget on December 21, 2009, 01:06:14 PM
ANYWAY....

Lieberman, schmeberman.  I think that that in the end, Obama is the one who dropped the ball on the public option.

Obama's only job right now is to give pretty speechs, take pictures with world leaders and other people of interest, don't die and look like he's in charge.  Dude is for ser powerless, imo.  Whether or not that is his fault, I don't know.  I feel like that is the way it is.

I would blame Harry Reid before I blamed Obama.  Reid is clearly unfit to be in the first chair of the left side of the aisle.

sls.stormyrider

#182
there are a few ways to look at this.

they will likely get a health care bill passed. after much debating, screaming at town meetings, tv, radio, interwebs, we will probably get something. I doubt we could have gotten more.

If this passes, 96% of all Americans will be covered. That's pretty damn big, imo. It is probably the biggest piece of social legislation since the 60s.
If it happens, Obama was the catalyst. Clinton couldn't get it done, Bush didn't try. Carter, Reagan, Bush 1 didn't try either. Obama deserves credit here for getting the process going, even though many people (self included) feel this falls short.

Single payer is not going to happen in this country in our lifetime. too many people are against anything that sounds like socialism.

The bill is not perfect, by a long shot. no bill is. there is definitely more work to do.

the process was ugly. This is Washington. There are always deals made and compromises. We just heard about all these because this is such a big bill. Enough people in the Senate were against the public option that it wouldn't fly. More deals would have had to be cut in order to try and get it. You do what you can do.

A friend of mine is a general in the marines, he has spent about half the last 10 years in DC (hates it in DC, going to Carolina soon). I asked him how frustrating it was when congress gives them weapons they don't want or need, but they get them because they are made in some powerful congressman's state or district.
He says 1)it happens all the time, and 2)this is a democracy, it's like making sausage.

all these congressman and Senators watch out for their self interest, to get something for their constituents, and to get re-elected.

the only realistic way around the deal making in Washington is to give the pres (or somebody) absolue, or near absolute power. I don't think we want that.
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

fauxpaxfauxreal

I think this whole "Clinton couldn't get it done, Obama could" argument is specious.  Clinton improved the economic climate in the U.S. by leaps and bounds during the 90's.  He did an awesome job of not only containing the contagions released by Reagan's disastorous policies, but also helping to cure the ills that existed before those contagions were spread. 

Frankly, he might not have gotten Health Care legislation passed, but he set the ball rolling.  It was a small setback in an administration that saw him constantly fighting for what was right.

I think this Healthcare Reform is all a red herring to do nothing but make it seem as though Obama fought for the good of the people while in actuality doing a bunch of nothing.

sls.stormyrider

Obama hasn't been in office for a year.
If you want to compare him to Clinton, either wait a bit, or just look at Clinton's first 11 months.

things happen slowly in Washington.

both of them campaigned on health care reform. I give Clinton credit for trying, but he couldn't get it passed.

"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

fauxpaxfauxreal

Quote from: slslbs on December 21, 2009, 02:25:14 PM
Obama hasn't been in office for a year.
If you want to compare him to Clinton, either wait a bit, or just look at Clinton's first 11 months.

things happen slowly in Washington.

both of them campaigned on health care reform. I give Clinton credit for trying, but he couldn't get it passed.

The thing with Clinton is, he never promised to work with the other side of the aisle.  I think Obama painting himself in that manner is more of a liability than actual political capitol.  I felt a lot better about Clinton's first 11 months, than I did about Obamas first 11, but then again I was 14 and more idealistic.

I think it just rubs me the wrong way that I think some put down Clinton to make Obama look better, and I think that is just rude, inconsiderate and wrong.

sunrisevt

Quote from: fauxpaxfauxreal on December 21, 2009, 02:34:49 PM
Quote from: slslbs on December 21, 2009, 02:25:14 PM
Obama hasn't been in office for a year.
If you want to compare him to Clinton, either wait a bit, or just look at Clinton's first 11 months.

things happen slowly in Washington.

both of them campaigned on health care reform. I give Clinton credit for trying, but he couldn't get it passed.

The thing with Clinton is, he never promised to work with the other side of the aisle.  I think Obama painting himself in that manner is more of a liability than actual political capitol.  I felt a lot better about Clinton's first 11 months, than I did about Obamas first 11, but then again I was 14 and more idealistic.

I think it just rubs me the wrong way that I think some put down Clinton to make Obama look better, and I think that is just rude, inconsiderate and wrong.

Pot, meet Kettle. I think you'll find you have lots in common.
Quote from: Eleanor MarsailI love you, daddy. Actually, I love all the people. Even the ones who I don't know their name.

sls.stormyrider


Quote from: fauxpaxfauxreal on December 21, 2009, 02:34:49 PM
Quote from: slslbs on December 21, 2009, 02:25:14 PM
Obama hasn't been in office for a year.
If you want to compare him to Clinton, either wait a bit, or just look at Clinton's first 11 months.

things happen slowly in Washington.

both of them campaigned on health care reform. I give Clinton credit for trying, but he couldn't get it passed.

The thing with Clinton is, he never promised to work with the other side of the aisle.  I think Obama painting himself in that manner is more of a liability than actual political capitol.  I felt a lot better about Clinton's first 11 months, than I did about Obamas first 11, but then again I was 14 and more idealistic.

I think it just rubs me the wrong way that I think some put down Clinton to make Obama look better, and I think that is just rude, inconsiderate and wrong.


that was certainly not meant to be a put down of Clinton. It was stating a fact. Clinton had a huge effort on health care reform, had a huge committee, made a big effort, and the  bill never got passed.

I think Clinton was a very good president and have defended him on other threads in this forum.

As far as working with the other side of the aisle, I think you can blame everyone, everywhere in Washington. Before health care reform ever started, the GOP said "we will make this his Waterloo". It's hard to work with someone who has that attitude.

Honestly, I think that when Obama started, he had full intentions of working with the GOP. Many of us (self included) thought that he could.
The fact is, that Washington is more divided than ever. You can only make a deal with someone who is willing to deal with you - based on the above quote, and other behaviour, it is very clear that the GOP does not want to deal. The dems just said, OK, we will try to get it done anyway, and they did.
Let me repeat, I blame everyone, even us (or me, anyway), for being transiently idealistic enough to believe that there would be cooperation. But the GOP has shown little sign that it wants to do anything except for get headlines criticizing the current admin.
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

sophist

Quote from: sunrisevt on December 21, 2009, 02:40:28 PM
Quote from: fauxpaxfauxreal on December 21, 2009, 02:34:49 PM
Quote from: slslbs on December 21, 2009, 02:25:14 PM
Obama hasn't been in office for a year.
If you want to compare him to Clinton, either wait a bit, or just look at Clinton's first 11 months.

things happen slowly in Washington.

both of them campaigned on health care reform. I give Clinton credit for trying, but he couldn't get it passed.

The thing with Clinton is, he never promised to work with the other side of the aisle.  I think Obama painting himself in that manner is more of a liability than actual political capitol.  I felt a lot better about Clinton's first 11 months, than I did about Obamas first 11, but then again I was 14 and more idealistic.

I think it just rubs me the wrong way that I think some put down Clinton to make Obama look better, and I think that is just rude, inconsiderate and wrong.

Pot, meet Kettle. I think you'll find you have lots in common.
Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

fauxpaxfauxreal

Quote from: slslbs on December 21, 2009, 02:45:31 PM
that was certainly not meant to be a put down of Clinton. It was stating a fact. Clinton had a huge effort on health care reform, had a huge committee, made a big effort, and the  bill never got passed.

I think Clinton was a very good president and have defended him on other threads in this forum.

As far as working with the other side of the aisle, I think you can blame everyone, everywhere in Washington. Before health care reform ever started, the GOP said "we will make this his Waterloo". It's hard to work with someone who has that attitude.

Honestly, I think that when Obama started, he had full intentions of working with the GOP. Many of us (self included) thought that he could.
The fact is, that Washington is more divided than ever. You can only make a deal with someone who is willing to deal with you - based on the above quote, and other behaviour, it is very clear that the GOP does not want to deal. The dems just said, OK, we will try to get it done anyway, and they did.
Let me repeat, I blame everyone, even us (or me, anyway), for being transiently idealistic enough to believe that there would be cooperation. But the GOP has shown little sign that it wants to do anything except for get headlines criticizing the current admin.

Oh I totally know what you are saying, and I agree.  The comment about the putting Clinton down to boost Obama's administration up wasn't directed at you, but more was directed at the youngest generation of Obama-ites who receive much of their opinion about Clinton's administration from the mass media.  I think when the idea that Clinton failed on Health Care is perpetuated, it somehow brings up the debate of Clinton versus Obama, a debate which I find to be rather counter-productive.

I totally agree about the right hand side of the aisle being complete and utter babies right now.  However, I feel that this is a problem that is partially the creation of the left.  In 2002, when America was at a turning point, the left basically said "whatever the administration proposes, we will agree to with minimal objection".  The left was very careful to keep its critique of the right to a mininum in a move to preserve political capitol while basically providing the Cheney administration with a blank check.  That was the time for the Left to act how the Right is acting now.  The Right is at fault for acting like babies now, and totally not paying back the political capitol loan that they were provided by the left circa 2002, but I felt that in 2002 the left should not have provided that loan to begin with.  I was very, very, very dissapointed with our party from 2002-2004.  I am still dissapointed with our party, because we have failed to adequately explained how all of us fucked up post 911.

I would like to see the party I loved so much growing up, own up to it's personal faults in order to make a brighter future.

I haven't seen Obama truly do this yet.  He seperates himself from the right, yet he doesn't own up to the part that the left played.  Clinton does the same thing nowadays. 

I really want everything to work out, I think the Democratic party is at a turning point, and I hope it all doesn't fall to shit.

sls.stormyrider

#190
Quote from: fauxpaxfauxreal on December 21, 2009, 02:55:29 PM
Quote from: slslbs on December 21, 2009, 02:45:31 PM
that was certainly not meant to be a put down of Clinton. It was stating a fact. Clinton had a huge effort on health care reform, had a huge committee, made a big effort, and the  bill never got passed.

I think Clinton was a very good president and have defended him on other threads in this forum.

As far as working with the other side of the aisle, I think you can blame everyone, everywhere in Washington. Before health care reform ever started, the GOP said "we will make this his Waterloo". It's hard to work with someone who has that attitude.

Honestly, I think that when Obama started, he had full intentions of working with the GOP. Many of us (self included) thought that he could.
The fact is, that Washington is more divided than ever. You can only make a deal with someone who is willing to deal with you - based on the above quote, and other behaviour, it is very clear that the GOP does not want to deal. The dems just said, OK, we will try to get it done anyway, and they did.
Let me repeat, I blame everyone, even us (or me, anyway), for being transiently idealistic enough to believe that there would be cooperation. But the GOP has shown little sign that it wants to do anything except for get headlines criticizing the current admin.

Oh I totally know what you are saying, and I agree.  The comment about the putting Clinton down to boost Obama's administration up wasn't directed at you, but more was directed at the youngest generation of Obama-ites who receive much of their opinion about Clinton's administration from the mass media.  I think when the idea that Clinton failed on Health Care is perpetuated, it somehow brings up the debate of Clinton versus Obama, a debate which I find to be rather counter-productive.

I totally agree about the right hand side of the aisle being complete and utter babies right now. However, I feel that this is a problem that is partially the creation of the left.  In 2002, when America was at a turning point, the left basically said "whatever the administration proposes, we will agree to with minimal objection".  The left was very careful to keep its critique of the right to a mininum in a move to preserve political capitol while basically providing the Cheney administration with a blank check.  That was the time for the Left to act how the Right is acting now.  The Right is at fault for acting like babies now, and totally not paying back the political capitol loan that they were provided by the left circa 2002, but I felt that in 2002 the left should not have provided that loan to begin with.  I was very, very, very dissapointed with our party from 2002-2004.  I am still dissapointed with our party, because we have failed to adequately explained how all of us fucked up post 911.

I would like to see the party I loved so much growing up, own up to it's personal faults in order to make a brighter future.

I haven't seen Obama truly do this yet.  He seperates himself from the right, yet he doesn't own up to the part that the left played.  Clinton does the same thing nowadays. 

I really want everything to work out, I think the Democratic party is at a turning point, and I hope it all doesn't fall to shit.

that kind of action started a long, long time ago.
the shame of it is, during the Reagan admin, Tip O'neil, his political adversary, would drink with him.
Unfortunately, that attitude is gone. It has changed from professional to personal. Both sides blame each other for starting it (I blame Lee Atwater during the Bush - Dukakis campaign), both sides do it. they all ought to grow up.

I think Obama would work with them if a) they would work with him, and / or b) he needed to.
The "ethics consults" - I forget the real name - Sarah Palin changed it to "death panel", which of course it is not, was a GOP idea. O'bama thought it was a good one, used it, and gave the originator credit. What else do they want him to do.
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

fauxpaxfauxreal

Oh, I know it has been getting worse.  Shit used to be the political parties, for the most part, would play political theatre for their constituency, but at the end of the day, everyone was in it for the good of everyone and the good of the nation.  I totally agree that the theatre has been becoming more important than the actual policy  America needs a reconciliation of both sides.  It's for the good of everyone.  It's hard to do at this point, because the "average american" still feels that either A) Republicanism=good or B) Democratism=good.  When the answer really is C)Americanism=good.

Alumni

Drew Westen on Obama & leadership.

Quote
Like most Americans I talk to, when I see the president on television, I now change the channel the same way I did with Bush. With Bush, I couldn't stand his speeches because I knew he meant what he said. I knew he was going to follow through with one ignorant, dangerous, or misguided policy after another. With Obama, I can't stand them because I realize he doesn't mean what he says -- or if he does, he just doesn't have the fire in his belly to follow through. He can't seem to muster the passion to fight for any of what he believes in, whatever that is. He'd make a great queen -- his ceremonial addresses are magnificent -- but he prefers to fly Air Force One at 60,000 feet and "stay above the fray."

It's the job of the president to be in the fray. It's his job to lead us out of it, not to run from it. It's his job to make the tough decisions and draw lines in the sand. But Obama really doesn't seem to want to get involved in the contentious decisions. They're so, you know, contentious. He wants us all to get along. Better to leave the fights to the Democrats in Congress since they're so good at them. He's like an amateur boxer who got a coupon for a half day of training with Angelo Dundee after being inspired by the tapes of Mohammed Ali. He got "float like a butterfly" in the morning but never made it to "sting like a bee."

Do you think Americans ought to have one choice of health insurance plans the insurance companies don't control, or don't you? I don't want to hear that it would sort of, kind of, maybe be your preference, all other things being equal. Do you think we ought to use health care as a Trojan Horse for right-wing abortion policies? Say something, for God's sake.

He doesn't need a chief of staff. He needs someone to shake him until he feels something strongly enough not just to talk about it but to act. He's increasingly appearing to the public, and particularly to swing voters, like Dukakis without the administrative skill. And although he is likely to squeak by with a personal victory in 2012 if the economy improves by then, he may well do so with a Republican Congress. But then I suppose he'll get the bipartisanship he always wanted.

Full editorial
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/drew-westen/leadership-obama-style-an_b_398813.html
Cause I got a degree

spaced

^

I disagree. Obama's fundamentally a pragmatist - that's what he campaigned on, and that's how he's governing. He's hung back on HCR largely because he thinks that it's the best way to get some kind of a decent bill passed. Making big speeches and being specific about exactly what he wants in a bill would only have come back to bite him if the bill got watered down (which it obviously did).

Alumni

So...what has he actually accomplished, then?
Cause I got a degree