Author Topic: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017  (Read 2769 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mattstick

  • Server Team
  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 21768
  • Karma: 1287
  • Some Rise Some Fall Some Climb
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2013, 01:54:57 PM »
Cheif Noc-a-Homa and the "Screaming Savage" logo are pretty interesting tributes...



Offline sophist

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 19141
  • Karma: 957
  • Gender: Male
  • Warning: contains ergot
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2013, 01:57:08 PM »
Yeah....the logistics of travel for the new stadium will be fucked. 

Thankfully for me, the only time I ever see cobb county is when I drive through it to leave Georgia for a show out of state.  Fuck the westside. 
Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

Offline VDB

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 8037
  • Karma: 279
  • Gender: Male
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2013, 02:00:50 PM »
That being said, I completely understand why others deem it inappropriate and insensitive. I can't think of (off the top of my head) another mascot that refers to an actual race of people.

There are others that refer to groups of people, even groups that you could say have a particular racial homogeneity about them: Vikings, Fighting Irish, Patriots, Canadiens, Celtics, Spartans...
there is no explanation
it's all inside your head


de gustibus non disputandum

Offline Lifeboy

  • Wrote the Book
  • **
  • Posts: 4931
  • Karma: 137
  • Gender: Male
  • potamus
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2013, 02:05:49 PM »
That being said, I completely understand why others deem it inappropriate and insensitive. I can't think of (off the top of my head) another mascot that refers to an actual race of people.

There are others that refer to groups of people, even groups that you could say have a particular racial homogeneity about them: Vikings, Fighting Irish, Patriots, Canadiens, Celtics, Spartans...

Yeah, I was thinking about all of those teams, and I was going to name all of those off, but to me, they aren't really the same as referring to Native Americans.

It's difficult for me to articulate what I mean, but I think you get the idea...
To know me is to know my love of Phish.  :smoke:

Offline sophist

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 19141
  • Karma: 957
  • Gender: Male
  • Warning: contains ergot
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2013, 02:11:05 PM »
words, how do they work? 
Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

Offline antelope19

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 24421
  • Karma: 876
  • Gender: Male
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2013, 02:13:55 PM »
Braves is not insensitive(however, I could do without that fucking tomahawk chop chant).  Redskins on the other hand......
Quote
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment

Offline Lifeboy

  • Wrote the Book
  • **
  • Posts: 4931
  • Karma: 137
  • Gender: Male
  • potamus
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2013, 02:59:26 PM »
Braves is not insensitive(however, I could do without that fucking tomahawk chop chant).  Redskins on the other hand......

I could see how some would take offense to 'Redskins'...

But I can't see the insensitivity in 'Braves'...
To know me is to know my love of Phish.  :smoke:

Offline mattstick

  • Server Team
  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 21768
  • Karma: 1287
  • Some Rise Some Fall Some Climb
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2013, 03:59:39 PM »

Offline VDB

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 8037
  • Karma: 279
  • Gender: Male
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2013, 05:12:20 PM »
My problem with that Law piece is that he is consistently conflating all Native American-themed names or iconography with the blatantly racist among them.

Quote
... one of the two major league teams that employ offensive stereotypes of Native Americans in their names and logos.

Quote
... Cleveland and Atlanta -- change their names and logos to something that isn't offensive to the first residents of our continent?

Quote
Native American groups have been calling for pro and amateur sports teams with caricature names, logos and mascots to change them for years.

Quote
... MLB and other pro leagues have sat on their hands when it comes to racist names and logos.

Quote
You'll hear the arguments that these nicknames aren't actually mocking Native Americans but honoring them. This is obviously false; if using ethnic stereotypes and epithets were a way of honoring segments of our population ...

Even if we all agree that "Washington Redskins" or the Chief Wahoo caricature is racist, we may not all agree that "Atlanta Braves" or "Florida State Seminoles" is patently racist just for the fact that it's based on Native Americans. Law's argument seems to pass right over this distinction therefore he's able to swiftly conclude that they are all equally racist and offensive.
there is no explanation
it's all inside your head


de gustibus non disputandum

Offline mattstick

  • Server Team
  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 21768
  • Karma: 1287
  • Some Rise Some Fall Some Climb
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2013, 05:28:30 PM »

It's all cultural appropriation.

Do fans wear ceremonial head dresses to KC Chiefs and Florida State Seminoles games?

Do the Atlanta Braves promote the "tomahawk chop" at games?

I think Law has it right by not drawing a line - it's all on the same side of it.


Offline VDB

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 8037
  • Karma: 279
  • Gender: Male
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2013, 11:24:12 PM »
So is "Boston Celtics" to be considered "cultural appropriation"? If not, what's the difference?

Law doesn't talk about cultural appropriation, either -- he calls all those names "racist" and "epithets" even when they are something generic or neutral. I think there's no quicker way to get a person to stop listening to you than to falsely impugn their motives or mindset -- especially, to accuse them of racism when you're using your own expansive definition of the term.
there is no explanation
it's all inside your head


de gustibus non disputandum

Offline mattstick

  • Server Team
  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 21768
  • Karma: 1287
  • Some Rise Some Fall Some Climb
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2013, 08:15:41 AM »
You cannot escape the fact that dressing up a sports franchise in Native American symbols and cultural iconography is racist by pointing out that there are teams called the Celtics and Patriots.

Offline VDB

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 8037
  • Karma: 279
  • Gender: Male
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2013, 10:35:30 AM »
You cannot escape the fact that dressing up a sports franchise in Native American symbols and cultural iconography is racist by pointing out that there are teams called the Celtics and Patriots.

But neither you nor Law, in his article, have established this as a "fact." It has been presented as an opinion and, in Law's case, he takes it for granted but his resulting argument (the teams should change their names because they are all racist) doesn't hold water because his position is fallacious: you can't prove an argument by citing your own unproven premise as support.

Now Matt, if you are saying that, yes, any and all use of Indian-inspired names or iconography (whether historically an actual slur like "redskin" or something neutral -- or even complimentary -- like "brave") is racist simply for existing in that it is a form of "cultural appropriation," then I'm saying logically you must agree that the "cultural appropriation" evidenced by the "Celtics" name and iconography is also racism.

But to me, "Boston Celtics" is not racist just like "Atlanta Braves" is not. "Boston Micks" would be racist, in the same way it is argued that "Washington Redskins" is.
there is no explanation
it's all inside your head


de gustibus non disputandum

Offline PIE-GUY

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 17584
  • Karma: 1261
  • Gender: Male
  • Something's happening.
    • My Shows
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2013, 10:42:32 AM »

But to me, "Boston Celtics" is not racist just like "Atlanta Braves" is not. "Boston Micks DRUNKS" would be racist, in the same way it is argued that "Washington Redskins" is.

fyp.
I've been coming to where I am from the get go
Find that I can groove with the beat when I let go
So put your worries on hold
Get up and groove with the rhythm in your soul

Offline VDB

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 8037
  • Karma: 279
  • Gender: Male
Re: Braves to move into new stadium in 2017
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2013, 10:43:38 AM »
I object to the suggestion that the Irish have an exclusive claim to drunken, boorish behavior!
there is no explanation
it's all inside your head


de gustibus non disputandum