answering the questions

[jephrey]

> or -> (i don't see a difference between them, though i know peeps have used them for different things over the years). well?

> is when a song finishes and the next starts immediately, maybe overlapping a bit.

-> is a pure segue during a jam or an unfinished tune.


Captalize Every Letter In A Song Name? Even Words Like An And The? Does It Make A Difference?

No, it should be written as Phish writes it.

HYHU or Hold Your Head Up (i vote HYHU since they don't really sing the song and it's just kinda a different version of the original), and do we always have a HYHU specified after the song in the middle? because i have noticed in the setlists over the years it's usually just HYHU > song, next song, without the > HYHU just assumed. any preference

Well, we have been using "Hold Your Head Up" but not in the setlist.  In the notes, it should say something like Hold Your Head Up preceeding and following Bike.  Or like this as we did in 2000.
http://wiki.week4paug.net/index.php/September_24%2C_2000

I thought that was best because it's just an intro, noteworthy, but not really something I need to see on a list.  If there's a time to change it though, it's now.

Jephrey

[PhishJY]

I just used the > (if it was listed like this: ->, I just removed the '-') for the 1990 stuff.

I have also been listing HYHU as a song.  I have been listing it as HYHU, not Hold Your Head Up.  I have been listing it as a song because nearly every show I have downloaded lists it.  Not to mention that the Mockingbird Foundation lists it as well.  IMO, the wiki should be pretty close to the Mockingbird Foundation and Phish.net setlists.

[jedifunk]

i'm against HYHU listings... its pointless to waste the space on it, and can be noted in the notes section.  its pretty much a given that it or cold as ice was done in conjunction with any fishman tune.

[jedifunk]

oh, and i'm totally FOR using both > AND –>

as stated above –> should only be used when a song seamlessly segued/flowed into another... whereas > is when a song starts without a significant pause in the music.

[jephrey]

IMO, the wiki should be pretty close to the Mockingbird Foundation and Phish.net setlists.

If it's valid to do so, I disagree with your opinion.  In mine, I think the wiki should be identical to Phish.com.  I'm kind of going back on how we list HYHU because Phish does list it on their releases (I believe).  So to take that into consideration, I think we should be as close to Phish.com as possible.  I agree with jedi that it's pointless to list HYHU and Cold as Ice or any Fishman intro partially played song, and I also like it listed as part of the notes. 

Justification...  Teases (even long ones) are listed as notes, I take those tracks as long teases.  It's just as easy either way, but I think it's cleaner in the notes.  I'm sure most people would even join those tracks (I do).

BTW.  A lot of things that are coming up now, have come up in the past.  I'll bet you there's a thread from early this year about this same thing.  It's good to have other opinions here, that's what it's all about.  So if I sound like I'm dictating, I don't mean to be.  I'm just trying to remember what we decided in the past, and bring up the points that made us decide that way.  Not to pat ourselves (The original few of us), but we did end up going over a lot of scenarios and ideas, so I can typically argue pretty heavily one way or another.  Re hashing stuff like this is great for the evolution of the site.  As more people contribute, we'll get this more often and really be able to refine things.

But what do the rest of you think about HYHU?

[jedifunk]

yes, i agree... phish (and phish.com) should be our baseline... the closer we adhere to their standards the better, IMO...

not that any discerning phishhead wont already know whats going on, but we've got to consider phish noobs too

[Marmar]

Let me just add my $.02 here.....

Most of the mbird setlists are culled from Kevin Shapiro's official database.......so take that for what its worth.......

[PhishJY]

Just to make sure I understand:

1) We ARE using > and ->
2) We ARE including HYHU (spelled out, not the acronym)

Correct?

[jephrey]

We are including HYHU spelled out but in the notes, not in the tracklisting.  Here's an example...

http://wiki.week4paug.net/index.php/September_24%2C_2000

We can debate it though.  There's not a lot of shows in there with an HYHU in them yet.

Jephrey

[drvinestein]

My input:

I like HYHU>whatever, since Hold Your Head Up and Phish's version are not the same.  I consider "HYHU" to be a Phish thing, not "Hold Your Head Up" and I think it should be displayed that way.  However, that will open up discussion about the proper way to list other things such as YEM>Vocal Jam or just simply YEM.

The ">" and "->" are necessary, I think.  Lots of times, when I'm converting stuff for my iPod, I'll copy the segues from TPC2, and I have noticed that it's not always accurate.  It will list something like "BATR, Character Zero" when I actually feel it should be "BATR > Character Zero" or it could be "Ghost > The Divided Sky" when I think it should read "Ghost -> The Divided Sky".  Also, I feel "," is a necessary marker as well, signaling the end of a song, a pause, then the start of another song.

[jephrey]

We had nailed this down in the past, but we can discuss it again.  The wiki is totally cool about stuff like this.  You make some good points drvinestein.  Although I disagree, lets discuss a couple of the things you bring up...

1.  HYHU, I agree, is a Phish thing, but as we spell out every thing else, I think it should NOT be abbreviated.  I think that abbreviation should apply in one single special case (ASZ/2001).  Since we trend to go by what Phish themselves say, and they call it 2001, I think that stays.  Since HYHU is typically played as an intro/outro, I feel it easy to note it in the notes section, not put it in the setlist simply becaue it wasn't even close to an entire song, and moreso because it's a Phish thing.

2.  YEM+Vocal Jam...  Hearing what's on the White Tape and what they were playing by 2004 tells me that YEM changed over the years.  I think any portions assembled together should be noted as YEM alone.

3.  You're on with our previous decision to use all 3 markers.  Commas removed on the details page (replaced, basically with a carriage return).

And when you notice that a > should be a ->, change it at the wiki and let the rest of us know.  Hopefully, you can get someone here to give a second opinion against their notes.  I haven't started capturing that info from what I listen to, but I probably should, for the wiki.

Comments anyone?

J