PHISH IS FUCKING BACK!!!!!!

[VDB]

I blame the jalapeno IPA.   :wink:

One day I need to make a beer with those peppers that Homer ate that made him trip.

[mistercharlie]

I blame the jalapeno IPA.   :wink:

One day I need to make a beer with those peppers that Homer ate that made him trip.

The Merciless Pepper of Quetzalacatenango, aka The Guatemalan Insanity Pepper, grown deep in the jungle primeval by the inmates of a Guatemalan insane asylum.

[antelope19]

I blame the jalapeno IPA.   :wink:

One day I need to make a beer with those peppers that Homer ate that made him trip.

The Merciless Pepper of Quetzalacatenango, aka The Guatemalan Insanity Pepper, grown deep in the jungle primeval by the inmates of a Guatemalan insane asylum.

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

[rowjimmy]

20 Years Later from last night.



Let me say this about Trey's playing in the last year or so... What I've noticed (and this video is a PRIME example), is that Trey's right hand is greatly improved. He's playing more rhythm and less lead, but even when he plays big leads he's doing great right had work. I've never thought of him as a great right-hand guitarist before. He's always been an impressive left-hand guitarist - playing machine gun notes all over the fretboard, etc. These days, I'm loving his rhythm skills.

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but think about Pete Townshend. He has always been a great right-hand guitarist... one of the best ever, really. It's why I still go back and listen to Tommy every so often. Pete's acoustic work on that album is a thing to behold. It's all right-hand stuff, though. His left hand is not all over the place playing tons of notes.

Jimmy Page was great with both. Trey has always been good at both, but he was great with the left in the past and, I think, he is great with the right these days. The left has it's moments, too, but in 3.0 those moments are fewer.

In recent years, as I've delved into the work of guys like Kottke and Fahey, (on top of Garcia) I've learned to listen closely to exactly what you're talking about. Trey's always been strong with both hands but his rhythm playing has really been coming through this tour.

[PIE-GUY]

20 Years Later from last night.



Let me say this about Trey's playing in the last year or so... What I've noticed (and this video is a PRIME example), is that Trey's right hand is greatly improved. He's playing more rhythm and less lead, but even when he plays big leads he's doing great right had work. I've never thought of him as a great right-hand guitarist before. He's always been an impressive left-hand guitarist - playing machine gun notes all over the fretboard, etc. These days, I'm loving his rhythm skills.

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but think about Pete Townshend. He has always been a great right-hand guitarist... one of the best ever, really. It's why I still go back and listen to Tommy every so often. Pete's acoustic work on that album is a thing to behold. It's all right-hand stuff, though. His left hand is not all over the place playing tons of notes.

Jimmy Page was great with both. Trey has always been good at both, but he was great with the left in the past and, I think, he is great with the right these days. The left has it's moments, too, but in 3.0 those moments are fewer.

In recent years, as I've delved into the work of guys like Kottke and Fahey, (on top of Garcia) I've learned to listen closely to exactly what you're talking about. Trey's always been strong with both hands but his rhythm playing has really been coming through this tour.

Trey's been pulling some great right-hand peaks that are very similar to Garcia peaks in tunes like Morning Dew. I love that shit... those great Morning Dews where Garcia's right hand is moving as fast the blades in an electric razor are some of my favorite Garcia moments. Trey's had a bunch of those type of peaks this year.

[VDB]

20 Years Later from last night.



Let me say this about Trey's playing in the last year or so... What I've noticed (and this video is a PRIME example), is that Trey's right hand is greatly improved. He's playing more rhythm and less lead, but even when he plays big leads he's doing great right had work. I've never thought of him as a great right-hand guitarist before. He's always been an impressive left-hand guitarist - playing machine gun notes all over the fretboard, etc. These days, I'm loving his rhythm skills.

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but think about Pete Townshend. He has always been a great right-hand guitarist... one of the best ever, really. It's why I still go back and listen to Tommy every so often. Pete's acoustic work on that album is a thing to behold. It's all right-hand stuff, though. His left hand is not all over the place playing tons of notes.

Jimmy Page was great with both. Trey has always been good at both, but he was great with the left in the past and, I think, he is great with the right these days. The left has it's moments, too, but in 3.0 those moments are fewer.

In recent years, as I've delved into the work of guys like Kottke and Fahey, (on top of Garcia) I've learned to listen closely to exactly what you're talking about. Trey's always been strong with both hands but his rhythm playing has really been coming through this tour.

Trey's been pulling some great right-hand peaks that are very similar to Garcia peaks in tunes like Morning Dew. I love that shit... those great Morning Dews where Garcia's right hand is moving as fast the blades in an electric razor are some of my favorite Garcia moments. Trey's had a bunch of those type of peaks this year.

Interesting you say that, because I've felt that Trey has fallen back on that "trick" more often this era in order to cover for a lack of dexterity in his left hand (or lack of ideas) relative to his younger self. That's been my theory anyway. We've heard it a lot in modern-era Slaves, for example, where the peak is just fast strumming as opposed to intricate and deliberately constructed peaking lead lines of old.

That's not to say I think it's a bad technique or can't be well executed. But I've wondered if Trey's always been doing it for the "right" reasons.

[Marmar]

How old is Trey? 50ish?

Lack of left hand technique is BS imho......Its damage from the opiate addiction. Listen to all the greats that have had that addiction pre and post recovery to spot the difference. Anyone who says it's "age" related is full of manure....considering the likes of Satriani, Vai, King (not BB), Santana.....Those guys can still RIP THE SHIT out of left hand technique and they are just as old if not older than Trey.....

It's lack of disciplined practice coupled with nerve/coordination damage from the opiates....You've mentioned Garcia. PERFECT example except he also had carpel tunnel on top of it.

Fan picking is a crutch for the most part, imho.






I don't really hear much difference in Trey's right hand except for the fact that he's laying low most of the time. His right hand is what makes him what he is. Maybe revisit some early-mid 90's shows and you'll see that his right hand has ALWAYS been a strong point.....the main difference being that his left USED TO be able to keep up with the right......aka Machine Gunning. To me, his right hand technique is something I strongly try to emulate with my own playing. His pick attack is the shit dreams are made of. His pick accuracy and speed is (was) top shelf. He totally could have been a member of Slayer back in the day.....and would have fit very well in Frank Zappas band with his dexterity in both hands. Nowadays, you just notice the right hand more because it's covering for what he can no longer do with the left like he used to. I also think this is where the whale comes in....it's covering his shortfalls in dexterity.

[VDB]

I certainly wouldn't say that Trey's chops are today the same as they were 20 years ago, but every now and then he'll rip off some lines or a sequence that's just as impressive as what his younger self was capable of. I'm no guitarologist so I may be full of hooey here, but I'd think that means his hand is *physically* capable of playing fast, dextrous shit, it's just that with less practice it doesn't come as easily, as often, and so what we hear these days is muscle memory kicking in from time to time.

[sophist]

I certainly wouldn't say that Trey's chops are today the same as they were 20 years ago, but every now and then he'll rip off some lines or a sequence that's just as impressive as what his younger self was capable of. I'm no guitarologist so I may be full of hooey here, but I'd think that means his hand is *physically* capable of playing fast, dextrous shit, it's just that with less practice it doesn't come as easily, as often, and so what we hear these days is muscle memory kicking in from time to time.

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No.  That's not the case at all.  20 years ago Trey was one of the best guitarists ever.  Trey in 2013 is lucky to be in the top 200 good currently touring guitarist list. 

[Itsnotanexperience]

I certainly wouldn't say that Trey's chops are today the same as they were 20 years ago, but every now and then he'll rip off some lines or a sequence that's just as impressive as what his younger self was capable of. I'm no guitarologist so I may be full of hooey here, but I'd think that means his hand is *physically* capable of playing fast, dextrous shit, it's just that with less practice it doesn't come as easily, as often, and so what we hear these days is muscle memory kicking in from time to time.

I'd love to hear a single example of any 3.0 playing where Trey showcases technical prowess that even begins to approach any of his fluidity from pre-hiatus. Somehow, between September 2000 and December 2002, he lost a bunch of ability. I do not believe this was a conscious choice (to lay low and shred less) but a complete inability to play as he used to play.   I'd argue that in 2.0, he played with more authority compared to nowadays, but it was mostly slopville all the time. His leads were muddy and sloppy and lacked the attack and precision he used to have.   

I have no idea what happened.   Occasionally he'll play something in a composed section (like the runs in mockingbird) that gives me a sense that he has the ability to play better but it never manifests itself in fluid playing during improvisation or leads.   

His playing seems better for sure, but it really isn't even close to what it once was.  Like I said recently, this most clearly shows up in really horrible solos out of DWD where he insists or banging out really cheesy hammer-ons that sound like I did in my first year of playing guitar.   Like, play something more lyrical that doesn't require technique - please stop with those fucking hammer-ons.

[sophist]

I certainly wouldn't say that Trey's chops are today the same as they were 20 years ago, but every now and then he'll rip off some lines or a sequence that's just as impressive as what his younger self was capable of. I'm no guitarologist so I may be full of hooey here, but I'd think that means his hand is *physically* capable of playing fast, dextrous shit, it's just that with less practice it doesn't come as easily, as often, and so what we hear these days is muscle memory kicking in from time to time.

I'd love to hear a single example of any 3.0 playing where Trey showcases technical prowess that even begins to approach any of his fluidity from pre-hiatus. Somehow, between September 2000 and December 2002, he lost a bunch of ability. I do not believe this was a conscious choice (to lay low and shred less) but a complete inability to play as he used to play.   I'd argue that in 2.0, he played with more authority compared to nowadays, but it was mostly slopville all the time. His leads were muddy and sloppy and lacked the attack and precision he used to have.   

I have no idea what happened.   Occasionally he'll play something in a composed section (like the runs in mockingbird) that gives me a sense that he has the ability to play better but it never manifests itself in fluid playing during improvisation or leads.   

His playing seems better for sure, but it really isn't even close to what it once was.  Like I said recently, this most clearly shows up in really horrible solos out of DWD where he insists or banging out really cheesy hammer-ons that sound like I did in my first year of playing guitar.   Like, play something more lyrical that doesn't require technique - please stop with those fucking hammer-ons.

Exactly.  I'd make the argument, put on 12/11/97, that's how it should sound.  Just a blazing assortment of awesome, where he completely dominates the fret board up and down the neck like a guitar god. 

[sunrisevt]

^^^I agree with most all of this.

I don't have an opinion about Trey's physical dexterity as it may or may not be affecting his instrumental prowess--I'm inclined to think that the confidence/self-consciousness issues might play as big a role in his hesitant/dicked-up playing here & there as does any physical/neural deficit from age and health. I also don't think his playing is so very lacking as many of you do.

What I do really like, though, and what helps keep me so interested in new  jams now, is that his playing in 3.0 is to my ear more spacious, more patient, maybe more mature, than it was 20 years ago. Basically, he's playing fewer notes, and he's now fully matured into that practice. He talked about it in the Charlie Rose interview in 2004 I think, or maybe in the interviews in the IT fest dvd. And Mike was obviously talking about it in the gun shop in Bittersweet Motel, and it was discussed in the interviews in The Phish Book--that they had to learn to play fewer notes in order to fill big rooms (read: arenas). The upshot of this, now that they've fully adjusted to this and other realities, is that there's more room for the other band members to shine.

I know I'm not saying anything new here; it's well-travelled ground for this crowd. But I really, really dig it. I've heard Trey's rock peak a million times, I love it like I love beer. But I can't live on beer alone, sadly.

[Marmar]

I certainly wouldn't say that Trey's chops are today the same as they were 20 years ago, but every now and then he'll rip off some lines or a sequence that's just as impressive as what his younger self was capable of. I'm no guitarologist so I may be full of hooey here, but I'd think that means his hand is *physically* capable of playing fast, dextrous shit, it's just that with less practice it doesn't come as easily, as often, and so what we hear these days is muscle memory kicking in from time to time.

I'd love to hear a single example of any 3.0 playing where Trey showcases technical prowess that even begins to approach any of his fluidity from pre-hiatus. Somehow, between September 2000 and December 2002, he lost a bunch of ability. I do not believe this was a conscious choice (to lay low and shred less) but a complete inability to play as he used to play.   I'd argue that in 2.0, he played with more authority compared to nowadays, but it was mostly slopville all the time. His leads were muddy and sloppy and lacked the attack and precision he used to have.   

I have no idea what happened.   Occasionally he'll play something in a composed section (like the runs in mockingbird) that gives me a sense that he has the ability to play better but it never manifests itself in fluid playing during improvisation or leads.   

His playing seems better for sure, but it really isn't even close to what it once was.  Like I said recently, this most clearly shows up in really horrible solos out of DWD where he insists or banging out really cheesy hammer-ons that sound like I did in my first year of playing guitar.   Like, play something more lyrical that doesn't require technique - please stop with those fucking hammer-ons.

Well.....there are SOME moments in 2004 where its like "WHOA"......few and far between but "WHOA". That was also the time the opiates were heavily circulating thru his bloodstream......revisit Coventry. Totally wasted till SOAMelt and then pulls off an amazingly good jam. Then quits the opiates, and look at what happened......speed and dexterity are severely compromised......fast forward to today, and lack of disciplined practice only amplifies that fact. I would be willing to bet the farm on this fact: If Trey practiced, like REALLY practiced, he'd be able to play like his younger self again.....

[Marmar]

Let me just clarify my statement......

By saying "playing like his younger self" I am stating that the dexterity issues would resolve and that, in turn, would revive his ability to play more fluid/melodic lines. I'm not making this statement wishing for the frenetic/crazy/20minute machine gun solos of yesteryear......I make the statement wishing for more fluid/easily expressed/melodic/accurate playing on his part in the context of the songs being played NOW.

[VDB]

I certainly wouldn't say that Trey's chops are today the same as they were 20 years ago, but every now and then he'll rip off some lines or a sequence that's just as impressive as what his younger self was capable of. I'm no guitarologist so I may be full of hooey here, but I'd think that means his hand is *physically* capable of playing fast, dextrous shit, it's just that with less practice it doesn't come as easily, as often, and so what we hear these days is muscle memory kicking in from time to time.

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No.  That's not the case at all.  20 years ago Trey was one of the best guitarists ever.  Trey in 2013 is lucky to be in the top 200 good currently touring guitarist list.

You're making a generality, which I believe I already addressed:

I certainly wouldn't say that Trey's chops are today the same as they were 20 years ago

I'm literally talking about isolated moments. Like, queue up the 10/23/13 Rock and Roll and check out 7:25-7:32. There are other examples that have popped up over the last five years as well. Just a few, brief, shining seconds where it does not seem, to my ears, that Trey's left hand has permanently, irretrievably lost any semblance of elite-level physicality. That's my point.