Author Topic: 12/11/97 Sources  (Read 654 times)

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Offline benjammin

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12/11/97 Sources
« on: April 09, 2009, 09:22:05 PM »
So, I hate to be a curmudgeon here, but I'm leaning towards saying that this source:

http://db.etree.org/shninfo_detail.php?shnid=83522

Should me "do not trade." First and foremost, MD sources are by nature a lossy format for recording. Here's the most basic spectrum analysis in the world:



Compare that to a lossless source (http://db.etree.org/shn/6231):



Pretty easy to see that the MD source rolls off the frequencies right around 17000 Hz while the lossless source preserves them. In addition, I sort of question the validity of the source lineage:

SBD > Sony MD > CDR > Peak > AIFF > Sound Converter > FLAC

So, was this patched out of the SBD? Did someone make a MD copy off the master DAT for someone? I thought the only band leaks were just cassette tapes the band made for people, but I guess it isn't impossible that they'd make a MD for someone. The source definitely does not sound like there's an analog generation, so it's not just a re-EAC of something else, but there's gotta be at least one DAT gen, which makes me wonder if a DAT clone of this show isn't out there. However, I don't think it sounds appreciably better than the DSBD > Cass/0 > DAT source, maybe just a bit clearer. But least not enough to be trading a lossy source.

Thoughts? Am I being exceptionally anal here? :)

:phish:
Ben



Offline Riİh

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2009, 09:29:46 PM »
MD sources are like trading or listening to mp3s. If I see an MD in the lineage it gets tossed. Very few exceptions to this. VERY few.

[Edit:] That show in question should have never been made into a matrix with a MD in the lineage. There's no excuse for that.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 09:33:58 PM by Rich »

Offline Hicks

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2009, 10:22:25 PM »
Some people thought it was an upgrade over the existing SBD when A/Bing the two, so yes I'd say you're being kinda anal.

Most adults can't hear over 17K anyway.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

Offline Riİh

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2009, 12:48:35 AM »
It's official...  I'm anal.  Hicks called me a dirty word.  :cry:  I'm telling!!!

Offline twatts

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2009, 12:58:53 AM »
By definition, a MD(m) isn't "lossy", it just doesn't have the fidelity of a DAT(m)...

That being said, I agree that this source is NOT the prefered SBD source, and that people should look for the SBD > Cass(0) source... 

I'm curious, there appears to be MD(m) and DAT(m) of this source...  Is that really true, or is one really a copy of the other???  ANyone know for sure the vared lineage of this particular source???

Terry

Oh! That! No, no, no, you're not ready to step into The Court of the Crimson King. At this stage in your training an album like that could turn you into an evil scientist.

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Offline benjammin

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 01:20:36 AM »
By definition, a MD(m) isn't "lossy", it just doesn't have the fidelity of a DAT(m)...

That being said, I agree that this source is NOT the prefered SBD source, and that people should look for the SBD > Cass(0) source... 

I'm curious, there appears to be MD(m) and DAT(m) of this source...  Is that really true, or is one really a copy of the other???  ANyone know for sure the vared lineage of this particular source???

Terry



Terry, I'd say by definition a MD is lossy. You don't get back what you started with on a MD, there's a frequency roll off (more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATRAC. Even if it's in the psychoacoustic range, that still counts as being lossy. My guess on the lineage is just that the MD was made for someone off the same DAT the cassettes were.

For comparison's sake, I took the lossless source, encoded it to a VBR0 MP3 and did the same thing:



The zoom in would show the roll off starts a bit earlier than the MD source, but it's the same basic process. If the source said SBD > MP3 > WAV > FLAC, would you still think it's an okay seed?

Offline whyweigh5.0

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2009, 01:28:10 AM »
this is our guideline for MD over at TTD

11. Mini-disc is accepted ONLY if it's from the original source master.
Quite simply, mini-disc uses a compression format which decreases the quality of a recorrding slightly from true CD quality. Since there are many excellent sounding MD sources in circulation, these are accepted provided that the original recording was made with an MD. Converting from other formats into MD and then to lossless audio is prohibited. Also, shows that have been through multiple MD generations are prohibited. Please seed your MD masters directly to lossless files, but keep the quality as good as possible by not seeding multiple gen MD stuff.

We no longer allow ATRAC MiniDisc recordings made on or after January 1, 2008 to be uploaded. This does not affect recordings made prior to January 1, 2008. You may read the (very long) discussion here.
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Offline Hicks

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2009, 01:42:13 AM »
The bottom line for me is that a lot people, including amdig who made the matrix, thought the MD source sounded better than the other SBD source.  If a large segment of people prefer that source, shouldn't we let it circulate?
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

Offline twatts

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2009, 02:11:46 AM »
If a large segment of people prefer that source, shouldn't we let it circulate?

Let the people decide on their own...  DB's function is to track existing sources, not influence people's tastes...

T
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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2009, 08:01:55 AM »
Two points-

First-
Terry, I'd say by definition a MD is lossy. You don't get back what you started with on a MD

I underlined the important part. By this definition, DAT and pretty much all digital recording are "lossy". All digital recording is a summation of the true waveform. Actually, microphones roll off frequencies as well. Where do you draw the line?

The line should be drawn at the point when the loss is audible. Hicks astutely pointed out that most adults cannot hear sounds above 17k. This leads to the second point:

If a large segment of people prefer that source, shouldn't we let it circulate?

Let the people decide on their own...  DB's function is to track existing sources, not influence people's tastes...

T


I agree with this. The comments area on the db.etree entry as well as the torrents are the appropriate place to express your concerns.




Offline McGrupp

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Re: 12/11/97 Sources
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2009, 01:55:41 PM »
RJ'd
Just two whiskies, officer.

I'm not sure if I followed this thread correctly, but what guys are saying is that Dave Thomas sold crack in inner-city DC in the mid-80's, right?