Author Topic: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>  (Read 36370 times)

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Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #675 on: March 28, 2017, 04:33:43 PM »
Woah. Never thought I'd see the day when you'd support sending taxpayer money to the already overstuffed coffers of the greedy health insurance companies. You've changed, dude.

Snark aside, the risk corridor program ended (as scheduled) in 2016, so there's nothing left to fund going forward to make the law work as intended. I swear I'm not trying to be a dick, but I legit cannot think of anything Congress choked off that would have resulted any different outcome than what we are seeing.

Well, i certainly dont support that, but if that is that is the way it is... for now, it should have been funded as intended.
Little Marco, however, slipped a provision in a spending bill that ultimately only funded the corridors to the tune of about 13 cents on the dollar.  That way the repubs could go on the campaign trail and scream, "Look, premiums have gone up!  What a disaster!"

The irony is that if the risk corridor program never existed, premiums would not have had to rise as much. The reason the risk corridor program failed so spectacularly was not due to whatever Rubio did (and to be clear, he didn't say "only pay out 13% of the claims"), it was cause the program, by definition, encouraged companies provide low priced plans in a bid to coax young/healthy people to join. When that didn't happen, prices were inevitably going higher. Had they not included this in the law, premiums likely would have been moderately higher in the first year (to account for the risk pool uncertainty) but grown at a slower rate. Of course, the GOP would still be kicking and screaming, but it would have been pretty meritless (you know, more so than it already was).

In addition to funding it properly, they could have also put an extention on them until they were more solvent, but, you know, politics.

Extending the program changes it from risk corridors to something else. It was meant to provide some stability through a turbulent period when the uncertainty around the risk pools was very high. But after a couple years when insurers had enough claims data, they should be able to adequately price their products or GTFO. Risk corridors were meant to smooth out the volatility of those first couple of years; extending it truly would have been an insurer bailout.

Woah. Never thought I'd see the day when you'd support sending taxpayer money to the already overstuffed coffers of the greedy health insurance companies. You've changed, dude.

Snark aside, the risk corridor program ended (as scheduled) in 2016, so there's nothing left to fund going forward to make the law work as intended. I swear I'm not trying to be a dick, but I legit cannot think of anything Congress choked off that would have resulted any different outcome than what we are seeing.

It may have "ended" in 2016, but there were many not for profit co-ops, and regular insurance companies, that were promised millions that never arrived last year.  If the money had been disbursed as planned, I might still have my $1000 deductible plan that I had at this time last year. 

If the money is passed on to policy holders in the form of benefit rich plans for sick people, then I'm all for it.  Who wouldn't be?

The risk corridor "default" wasn't the primary reason nearly every co-ops failed IMO; shit, Vermont closed theirs before it even started. The co-op failure is much more attributable to poor management and poorly crafted rules governing them. They never had a chance.

And of course I have no problem in principle with rich benefits. The problem is *someone* has to pay for them. Higher premiums or higher taxes, but one way or another, the cost was going up.

Offline Hicks

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #676 on: March 28, 2017, 05:28:59 PM »
Welp I think you are just wrong about the co-ops, here in Oregon it closed immediately after they got a bill from the Feds served to them for 900k instead of expected funds. 

As for who pays for it, are you really so naive to believe that the US government "pays" for things like a normal entity?  If they can just magically institute three rounds of QE to bail out banks and other wall street scumbags, why not do it for healthcare too? 

« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 05:31:02 PM by Hicks »
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #677 on: March 29, 2017, 10:54:56 AM »
Welp I think you are just wrong about the co-ops, here in Oregon it closed immediately after they got a bill from the Feds served to them for 900k instead of expected funds. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to say it had nothing to do with their closings; of course when you are expecting $5M from the feds and you only receive $900k it's going to have an impact on your ability to remain a going concern. What I was suggesting was that this was more of a symptom of the issues and not the cause, which was mismanagement and poor planning. Actuarially speaking, pricing the plans such that your ability to remain solvent is dependent on receipt of risk corridor funds was insane. I cannot believe they would actually include in their rates a provision for payments from Congress, especially this Congress, which is why I see pointing to risk corridor default more as an exercise in blame shifting than anything else.

As for who pays for it, are you really so naive to believe that the US government "pays" for things like a normal entity?  If they can just magically institute three rounds of QE to bail out banks and other wall street scumbags, why not do it for healthcare too?

Well, I was referring more to the consumer paying for it, either directly through higher premiums or indirectly through higher deductibles, more restrictive networks, etc. But to your point, I was and remain adamantly opposed to QE of all forms, as I believe you do. So the question isn't "why not do it for healthcare" it's "why are we doing this bullshit at all?" There's also practical problems (e.g., the transmission mechanism used by the Fed to create the money and move it to the banks is far more seamless than to do so with insurers), but in the end, if it's wrong it's wrong. And there is no goddamned doubt in my mind that QE is very fucking wrong.

Offline Hicks

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #678 on: March 29, 2017, 12:28:38 PM »
I dunno man, yeah in theory QE is fucking batshit insane, but I'm coming around to the idea that federal deficits don't really matter. 

The national debt has been exploding for my entire life and when the shit finally hit the fan, it didn't really have anything to do with government spending or monetary policy.  Economics is such black magic, anyone who pretends to truly understand it is a fool IMO.  But the fact is, we haven't seen out of control inflation in the overall economy and the dollar is as strong as ever, so at this point it seems like we should just keep the money presses spinning, but this time we should be the beneficiaries and I think government subsidized healthcare is where the money needs to go.
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

Offline PIE-GUY

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #679 on: March 29, 2017, 01:48:28 PM »
Here's a great piece on the whole Repubs vs. the ACA fight of the last decade...

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/the-republican-waterloo/520833/

It's a long one and the following quote is near the end. I think this is actually a really important perspective:

Quote
Whatever else the 2016 election has done, it has emancipated Republicans from one of their own worst self-inflicted blind spots. Health care may not be a human right, but the lack of universal health coverage in a wealthy democracy is a severe, unjustifiable, and unnecessary human wrong. As Americans lift this worry from their fellow citizens, they値l discover that they have addressed some other important problems too. They値l find that they have removed one of the most important barriers to entrepreneurship, because people with bright ideas will fear less to quit the jobs through which they get their health care. They値l find they have improved the troubled lives of the white working class succumbing at earlier ages from preventable deaths of despair. They値l find that they have equalized the life chances of Americans of different races. They値l find that they have discouraged workplace discrimination against women, older Americans, the disabled, and other employees with higher expected health-care costs. They値l find that their people become less alienated from a country that has overcome at last one of the least attractive manifestations of American exceptionalism預nd joined the rest of the civilized world in ameliorating and alleviating our common human vulnerability to illness and pain.


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Offline slslbs

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #680 on: March 29, 2017, 03:46:06 PM »
^^
great quote

the national debt has really only been exploding the last 8-10 years.
it affects us because the govt has to pay interest on it, taking away money for things like health care (or guns, depending upon what your preference is)
I don't think this country will have single payer health in my lifetime, for better or worse.
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but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
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Offline Hicks

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #681 on: March 29, 2017, 04:16:42 PM »
^^
great quote

the national debt has really only been exploding the last 8-10 years.
it affects us because the govt has to pay interest on it, taking away money for things like health care (or guns, depending upon what your preference is)
I don't think this country will have single payer health in my lifetime, for better or worse.

Well it did triple under Reagan. 

As for interest, just keep the Fed rates low forever, wheeeeeeeeeeeee!
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #682 on: March 29, 2017, 04:34:24 PM »
I kinda thought it before, but now I'm quite sure you're trolling me, Hicks. But I just can't help myself...

I dunno man, yeah in theory QE is fucking batshit insane, but I'm coming around to the idea that federal deficits don't really matter. 

Objection: conflating QE (money creation/debt monetization) and deficits (debt creation).

The only reason deficits don't matter is because our superpower status as well as the dollar as the world's reserve currency. But even if that were to continue indefinitely (it won't, but never mind that), debt service alone will crowd out other spending at some point. So unless you're willing to cut spending in other areas (not slower growth of future increases, actually CUT spending), deficits do in fact matter. Debt is the accumulated deficit, so by definition it doesn't happen all at once. It's a very long fuse...

The national debt has been exploding for my entire life

Bill says no.

and when the shit finally hit the fan, it didn't really have anything to do with government spending or monetary policy.

Well, indirectly through an extended policy of low interest rates which helped fuel a housing related boom and bust. But do we really need a crisis to prove the overall efficacy of a given policy?

Economics is such black magic, anyone who pretends to truly understand it is a fool IMO.

Word, although I do think you can look retroactively and assess the issues empirically; projecting forward is total voodoo. But you're right, you can even empirically find "evidence" to back into whatever you answer to which you were ideologically predisposed to in the first place.

But the fact is, we haven't seen out of control inflation in the overall economy and the dollar is as strong as ever, so at this point it seems like we should just keep the money presses spinning, but this time we should be the beneficiaries and I think government subsidized healthcare is where the money needs to go.

Oh, Hicks

I'm trying to get outta here early but I do need to point out:

(1) dollar comment somewhat addressed above, buoyed by the fact the rest of the world continues to wade into monetary shenanigans and weak growth (brought on at least in part by, you guessed it, too much debt!);
(2) inflation has been nonexistent largely because the Fed PAID banks not to flood the system with their newly created "money," thereby restraining (or rather, delaying) the inevitable devaulation that comes with a quadrupling of a central bank's balance sheet; and
(3) you mean you want gov't to subsidize healthcare (which they already do for exchange plans) by creating new money and sending it directly to taxpayers to be used on health insurance (or, just cut out the middle man and send it directly to the health insurers)? I thought you wanted to reduce health insurer power; HCQE would be a fat ass blank check.

Incidentally, people did propose a QE for the people, the so called "helicopter money" (cause it would be like dropping money from a helicopter), where instead of sending QE minted dollars to the banks it would go right to you. And there was a lot of thoughtful analysis around it to come up with what is so patently obvious on it's face:  weakening the currency is not a way to get prosperity. I understand and respect your desire to help people, but QE is fundamentally flawed and should be removed from the toolkit.

Here's a great piece on the whole Repubs vs. the ACA fight of the last decade...

Quote
by:  David Frum

Easy pass

Offline slslbs

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #683 on: March 29, 2017, 04:39:37 PM »
^^
great quote

the national debt has really only been exploding the last 8-10 years.
it affects us because the govt has to pay interest on it, taking away money for things like health care (or guns, depending upon what your preference is)
I don't think this country will have single payer health in my lifetime, for better or worse.

Well it did triple under Reagan. 

forgot about that - getting old
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
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Offline Hicks

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #684 on: March 29, 2017, 05:00:47 PM »
Yeah I did kinda co-mingle QE and the deficit my bad, although now that I think about it, we'll just do another QE and this time we'll make the banks service US debt, genius! 

As for some other currency replacing the dollar as the dinero fraca, I just don't see that happening anytime soon, who's gonna do it, the Euro? (lol!)

Low interest rates were a very small piece of mortgage backed security shitstorm and let's be honest, those wolves would've underwritten shitty loans regardless of the rates and in fact many of the ARMs they sold did become outrageously high.

I think a single payer system is the only real solution to the problem we face, and that's the system I would like to see our government pump money into. Oh surely there would be massive waste, but I have to believe it would be an improvement from the parasitic insurance industry literally sucking the life out of the populace.   
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

Offline DoW

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #685 on: March 30, 2017, 08:33:39 AM »
I'll go on record and say that I want the government involved as little as possible in healthcare.
hell, wait and see what medicare is like 10 years from now.
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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #686 on: March 30, 2017, 09:12:21 AM »
I'll go on record and say that I want the government involved as little as possible in healthcare.
hell, wait and see what medicare is like 10 years from now.

I'll go on record and say that I want the grubby hands of the insurance industry involved as little as possible in healthcare. I've seen what the last 50 years of their bullshit has done to the cost trying to stay healthy.
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Find that I can groove with the beat when I let go
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Offline DoW

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #687 on: March 30, 2017, 09:29:23 AM »
I'll go on record and say that I want the government involved as little as possible in healthcare.
hell, wait and see what medicare is like 10 years from now.

I'll go on record and say that I want the grubby hands of the insurance industry involved as little as possible in healthcare. I've seen what the last 50 years of their bullshit has done to the cost trying to stay healthy.
the government has been heading into the direction of acting like an insurance company.

I have no love for insurance companies.

my point on the government lies in that we are in a state of the two parties inability to work together which results in nothing getting done.
I have always been against the repeal of the ACA.  now that ti is at least temporarily stalled, I still see nothing that shows that will work on improving the "law of the land."  if you give the government all the power on healthcare, it will just lead to more of a power struggle between the two parties.  at least currently there is a free market option for people.

I get the single payer argument.  I just don't happen to agree with it.
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Offline slslbs

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #688 on: March 30, 2017, 09:46:27 AM »
fwiw, Medicare regulations are independent of Congress and apolitical.
They also often make no medical sense.
Funding Medicare, of course if very political, and, that of course, as pointed out, will become more problematic as time goes by

Insurance company regs ALSO often make no sense, but in my experience they are quicker to change than Medicare because they have to respond to the market. On the other hand, they have more hoops to jump through that increase business expense and delay care. Some of those hoops are actually good things, because there is no doubt that the system IS overutilized, by everyone

Personally, I hate them both

the lesser of 2 evils is still evil
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Offline mattstick

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Re: Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>
« Reply #689 on: March 30, 2017, 10:21:34 AM »

USA needs a Tommy Douglas.