Author Topic: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested  (Read 1856 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Shadowmaster

  • Guest
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 03:06:57 PM »
You did those 24 bit remasters, mattstick? Were you weave@furthur?

Offline jmitchell

  • I Am Hydrogen
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
  • Karma: 97
  • Gender: Male
    • Show list
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2009, 04:59:35 PM »
I've kind of hit a stuck point on my blog.  It's a little tedious writing something about every single show you listen to, especially if you're trying to do it in order.  Shows start running together, start sounding the same, you loose focus on what you are trying to do. :frustrated:  I took a break.  I need to get back into it because it is actually a fun project to be doing, but for right now it's on the back burner.  I'd like to hear other people's feedback, good or bad, agreements or disagreements on some of what I have written.  It was started mainly for me to have some kind of reference to go back and review when I want to listen to a show, so keep that in mind.  The reviews are cut and dry, very short and to the point.  You aren't going to be reading a 10 minute long review, they are all about a paragraph each.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 05:04:22 PM by jmitchell20042003 »
Phish Lossless Audio Sources
http://tinyurl.com/8gc3xdy

Offline Superfreakie

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 10676
  • Karma: 1140
  • Gender: Male
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2009, 09:43:32 PM »
Shows start running together, start sounding the same, you loose focus on what you are trying to do.

Yeah, my memory sort of gave up hanging on to dates, all the colors have run together to create brown. I tend to remember tours and not specific shows. I just upped all of 1995 in the LL project, listened to every show and sure enough, three weeks after the fact and I remember shit all as to what I liked and disliked, it's all brown again. And the Dead for me is even worse, it's beyond brown.
Que te vaya bien, que te vaya bien, Te quiero más que las palabras pueden decir.

Offline twatts

  • Wrote the Book
  • **
  • Posts: 2848
  • Karma: 216
  • Gender: Male
  • PHISH
    • http://db.etree.org/twatts
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2009, 10:46:29 PM »
I have a few thoughts on this subject, for what they are worth...

1- "Best source" is subjective, though I think through carefully conducted voting, a "majority preferred" source can be identified.

2- DB.ETREE comments is a great place to make comments about the quality of a particular source.  It could be as simple as "I prefer this source (db ID#) over this source (another db ID#)" posted on both the shows comments sections.

3- I think "best" criteria should depend on year, or clumps of years.  With so many excellent sources for 97 forward, it may be pointless to try to pick out a "best" (see #1 above).  And for some early shows, it may not be a fair comparison of sources, ie. a poorer quality source may be more complete than a better sounding source.

I wonder if perhaps a 10pt rating system for each source is a better solution???

Like I said, what they are worth...  Personally, I think every source is "best" as they all present things uniquely.

Terry


edit:  I would suggest #2 above.  Its easy and if used en masse, it could be a useful way to identify good sources - if 10 people say they prefer the first source over the second, I would be more likely to seek out the first.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 10:50:35 PM by twatts »
Oh! That! No, no, no, you're not ready to step into The Court of the Crimson King. At this stage in your training an album like that could turn you into an evil scientist.

----------------------

I want super-human will
I want better than average skill
I want a million dollar bill
And I want it all in a Pill

Offline Superfreakie

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 10676
  • Karma: 1140
  • Gender: Male
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2009, 10:59:18 PM »
1- "Best source" is subjective, though I think through carefully conducted voting, a majority preferred source can be identified.

Subjective is the result of differences of playback systems. Headphones move sound in a completely different way than speakers and speakers vary tremendously. My speakers cost me nearly 30,000$. So let's say the majority of folks reviewing a source are doing it with headphones, which I am not disparaging as cans kick ass, but how does that voting serve me. It's useless unless you are a headphone listener. Because if we are going to be finicky about this, which I think we have to be, then I have more than a few nights where certain sources sound better in my cans than the speakers and vice versa. By the way, I say this not because I'm trying to poopoo this project because I think it desperately needs to be done, and admittedly there are some sources that sound like shit in any playback system but I think you understand the dilemma........
Que te vaya bien, que te vaya bien, Te quiero más que las palabras pueden decir.

Offline disco

  • Team UNTZ
  • ISO Moderator
  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 5479
  • Karma: 725
  • why yes I do put cereal in my ice cream
    • Audio List
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2009, 12:12:38 AM »
I like the tally of vote idea more as a temporary tool to help sift through these piles of sources we get now. When I first posted this is was to see if we could collectively decide which 3 sources for 8 sounded we liked best. Look how many sources popped up for Hampton or 8...now that I have more bw it's easy to grab everything and compare but it's still a pain in the ass. Those older shows usually have a source or two, typically the higher the db# the better the show should sound as the transfer technology always gets better.

We could just do a poll for each show in a particular forum, adding sources as vote options when they appear on etree, each person can vote once and change it....might work
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
..><((((º>·´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>·.¸´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>.¸¸..

      www.week4paug.net

       Sharin' our groove with you

..><((((º>·´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>·.¸´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>.¸¸..

Offline Superfreakie

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 10676
  • Karma: 1140
  • Gender: Male
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2009, 12:17:24 AM »
I like the tally of vote idea more as a temporary tool to help sift through these piles of sources we get now. When I first posted this is was to see if we could collectively decide which 3 sources for 8 sounded we liked best. Look how many sources popped up for Hampton or 8...now that I have more bw it's easy to grab everything and compare but it's still a pain in the ass. Those older shows usually have a source or two, typically the higher the db# the better the show should sound as the transfer technology always gets better.

We could just do a poll for each show in a particular forum, adding sources as vote options when they appear on etree, each person can vote once and change it....might work

Gotcha'
Que te vaya bien, que te vaya bien, Te quiero más que las palabras pueden decir.

Offline disco

  • Team UNTZ
  • ISO Moderator
  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 5479
  • Karma: 725
  • why yes I do put cereal in my ice cream
    • Audio List
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2009, 04:49:22 AM »
http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=14035.0

above is the link to what I was talking about doing, just a pilot at this point. I figured Halloween was prolly the most grabbed show overall so I started my poll with that. Like I said, trying to create a quick and easy to use tool to help us filter our archives to have the best of the sources out there. I am all for keeping all recordings alive, but we should ensure the best sources get circ'd heavily so in 10 years they are what are the most common. Plus this will help some people with their listening practices and we explore our own.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
..><((((º>·´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>·.¸´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>.¸¸..

      www.week4paug.net

       Sharin' our groove with you

..><((((º>·´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>·.¸´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>.¸¸..

Offline Superfreakie

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 10676
  • Karma: 1140
  • Gender: Male
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2009, 07:18:03 AM »
http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=14035.0

above is the link to what I was talking about doing, just a pilot at this point. I figured Halloween was prolly the most grabbed show overall so I started my poll with that. Like I said, trying to create a quick and easy to use tool to help us filter our archives to have the best of the sources out there. I am all for keeping all recordings alive, but we should ensure the best sources get circ'd heavily so in 10 years they are what are the most common. Plus this will help some people with their listening practices and we explore our own.

A positive by-product of this listening filter would inevitably arise from the discovery of dates in the modern era to which no source meets our standards and thus are in need of replacement. For example, when I ran the 2000 project at LL, I was surprised at how some dates' corresponding sources were extremely poor and few, while, at that point in the scene, there were many tapers and thus there must be better sources out there.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 07:19:55 AM by Superfreakie »
Que te vaya bien, que te vaya bien, Te quiero más que las palabras pueden decir.

Shadowmaster

  • Guest
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2009, 10:06:21 AM »
1- "Best source" is subjective, though I think through carefully conducted voting, a majority preferred source can be identified.

Subjective is the result of differences of playback systems. Headphones move sound in a completely different way than speakers and speakers vary tremendously. My speakers cost me nearly 30,000$. So let's say the majority of folks reviewing a source are doing it with headphones, which I am not disparaging as cans kick ass, but how does that voting serve me. It's useless unless you are a headphone listener. Because if we are going to be finicky about this, which I think we have to be, then I have more than a few nights where certain sources sound better in my cans than the speakers and vice versa. By the way, I say this not because I'm trying to poopoo this project because I think it desperately needs to be done, and admittedly there are some sources that sound like shit in any playback system but I think you understand the dilemma........

I agree with this. Your speaker rig is not going to be the norm. I think we need a 'high-end' top source, and a 'low-end' top source. This way users get two perspectives.

Offline disco

  • Team UNTZ
  • ISO Moderator
  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 5479
  • Karma: 725
  • why yes I do put cereal in my ice cream
    • Audio List
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2009, 10:24:32 AM »
http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=14035.0

above is the link to what I was talking about doing, just a pilot at this point. I figured Halloween was prolly the most grabbed show overall so I started my poll with that. Like I said, trying to create a quick and easy to use tool to help us filter our archives to have the best of the sources out there. I am all for keeping all recordings alive, but we should ensure the best sources get circ'd heavily so in 10 years they are what are the most common. Plus this will help some people with their listening practices and we explore our own.

A positive by-product of this listening filter would inevitably arise from the discovery of dates in the modern era to which no source meets our standards and thus are in need of replacement. For example, when I ran the 2000 project at LL, I was surprised at how some dates' corresponding sources were extremely poor and few, while, at that point in the scene, there were many tapers and thus there must be better sources out there.

very true...
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
..><((((º>·´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>·.¸´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>.¸¸..

      www.week4paug.net

       Sharin' our groove with you

..><((((º>·´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>·.¸´¯`·.¸¸..><((((º>.¸¸..

Offline factorz

  • w00kiep4ug
  • Posts: 47
  • Karma: 6
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2009, 02:17:42 PM »
Really beyond older tapes where maybe only a few sources exist doesn’t there come a point where personal preferences are going to take over.  At some point the taper section started to see numerous brands of mics. I know buddies who are Schoeps lovers and swear by them while I have always been a fan of U89’s for pulling great tapes.

On a side note I am not sure if anyone grabbed the FOB TLM170’s, but I was really impressed with the sound coming out of my speakers!

Offline spaced

  • Got It Simple
  • *****
  • Posts: 451
  • Karma: 67
  • Gender: Male
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2009, 03:53:58 PM »
http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=14035.0

above is the link to what I was talking about doing, just a pilot at this point. I figured Halloween was prolly the most grabbed show overall so I started my poll with that. Like I said, trying to create a quick and easy to use tool to help us filter our archives to have the best of the sources out there. I am all for keeping all recordings alive, but we should ensure the best sources get circ'd heavily so in 10 years they are what are the most common. Plus this will help some people with their listening practices and we explore our own.

I like this idea, but I think it's worth noting that there's inevitably going to be a bias toward sources that are posted earlier. I noticed that for this last tour, most sources showed up after a few days, but there were often a few that popped up a week or two later. Regardless of their quality, those latecomers would not get as many votes because people won't wait that long to make their picks. I don't think that makes it not worth doing, but it's something to be aware of.

Really beyond older tapes where maybe only a few sources exist doesn’t there come a point where personal preferences are going to take over.  At some point the taper section started to see numerous brands of mics. I know buddies who are Schoeps lovers and swear by them while I have always been a fan of U89’s for pulling great tapes.

You're right that there's lots of subjectivity, but usually there are one or two consensus picks for every show, even with the insane amount of sources floating around nowadays. Just being able to narrow it down to two or three of the more popular sources to compare is going to be helpful to a lot of people who don't want to listen to 8 different sources for each show. I did that for the first leg of summer tour, and it gets kind of exhausting after a while.

Offline edemille

  • Climbing The Mountain
  • **
  • Posts: 120
  • Karma: 9
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2009, 09:05:43 PM »
I'm down with the 5 star rating system...depending on where this would reside, it could potentially be polluted by individuals confusing source quality with how they rate the show musically...I'm sitting here now pondering which F8 sources are the "best source" while I await some new harddrives.  Any thoughts on the F8 sources?

Offline rowjimmy

  • Head Ache
  • 'Paug Admin
  • In the OTHER Band
  • ****
  • Posts: 49058
  • Karma: 2156
  • Gender: Male
  • No Questions. Just Rawk
    • Row Knows
Re: "Best Source" Discussion set up, thoughts requested
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2009, 09:14:26 PM »
Couldn't one add this to the wiki?