Author Topic: interesting thing i just read....  (Read 1426 times)

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Offline Gumbo72203

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interesting thing i just read....
« on: August 10, 2005, 03:34:44 AM »
so i was browsing the Coventry forum at the gathering of the vibes website, and i stumbled upon a discussion of SPAC '04 i think it was.  anyway, one of the people there made a comment about how he was sick of seeing Ghosts and YEM's, and went on to say "Ghost is the song that killed Phish.  take your molly and go see brothers past...."  or something to that effect


now... i think has the possibility to evoke some serious discussion, because, in part, it does make sense if you think about it.  Ghost wasnt a RAGE jam like Maze or Disease... it was a psychedelic funk jam that was centered around the danceable groove, which is basically the perfect fit for Molly.  When i saw the disco biscuits in december at the Palace '04, i ate 2 pills, and they were good.  i hadnt even ever listened to them before, but it was probably the most amazing musical experience of my life.  those guys just kept making you dance, and their jam style is, imo, very similiar to that of Ghost: the trippy psychedelic hypnotic funk groovin that makes you just wanna dance and dance and dance and dance.......

ok enough about the biscuits.  any thoughts?
"Just drink some water, and breathe through your nose."  -Slim, 3/7/09


%% with alternated lyrics about a 1995 jeep cherokee that was also sacraficed on this tour.

I think I got it but he's such a spaz he'll probably never open this thread again

Offline rowjimmy

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2005, 09:31:59 AM »
I have a multipart reply.

1) No song killed Phish. I think, if we think about it, we can all agree on that. Nor did any song kill the scene or Jimmy's cat or anything else.

2) Ghost is a very clever song with intelligent lyrics and a nice dancey groove. the drateful Dead were a dance band for 30 years. Nothing wrong with that. If you want to find fault with that sort of song, Don't forget Black Eyed Katie/Moma Dance. oh, and all them long 2001s. And really, shouldn't we shoot the messenger? Isn't Phish really to blame for this stuff? How dare they play music that gets them off.

3) Don't get me started on Disco Biscuits. all I can say is that if you want to have peaks in a jam, you have to have valleys too. Dynamics lacking. I've given them a fair shake by downloading a couple and seeing them live. glad it was at a festival so i could walk away no poorer. sad it was on the late night stage at the festival and that you couldn't actually escape the sound even when the police tried to turn them down and fined the fest organizers.... nuff said. Enjoy them all you want.

4) This message came off less than nice. Not my intent. I simply don't agree with the basic premise that a song or songs killed the band. Phish was, through the second half of their career, about change. They were constantly evolving, devolving, morphing and moving. Thats one of the things I love about them.

Offline mattstick

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2005, 09:49:52 AM »
I also disagree.

ANY Phish song is good if you're rolling on molly.
Hell, ANYTHING is pretty good.

Offline jephrey

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2005, 10:38:30 AM »
Quote
Nor did any song kill the scene or Jimmy's cat or anything else.


I disagree, Harpua killed Jimmy's cat, and although it was the dog, it was also the name of a song.

I also disagree that any song even hurt phish in any way.  They're a band.  Your opinion that one song isn't good or songs started becoming a certain way that was less than what you had heard in the past or a style that you don't like, is just, like, your opinion, man.  

I did have a beautiful experience at a Biscuits show on molly.  I also had a beautiful experience on molly in my parent's basement listening to Morcheeba on my computer's speakers.  

Phish sober > Biscuits with molly (IMO)

I do get what you're saying though.  I don't think those grooves catered to the molly scene.  It's what I wanted with or without rolls.  I was into all those groovy funkadelic tunes regardless of my state of mind.  I guess the question is would the molly scene had been as big without the Ghosts and Momas and Jibboos and Sands?  I think so.  It's what was in style.

But what the hell do I know,

Jephrey
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hachiemachie

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2005, 10:46:59 AM »
I think it's just more of a coincidence that Phish moved into "Ghost"-type songs right around the same time that the scene started getting out of control. When you have people around JUST to get fucked up, they're gonna get fucked up to ANYTHING.

Offline Hicks

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2005, 01:08:40 PM »
Quote from: mattstick{{.ca}}
I also disagree.

ANY Phish song is good if you're rolling on molly.
Hell, ANYTHING is pretty good.


LOL!!!  Funny 'cause it's true!
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

Offline Itsnotanexperience

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2005, 04:17:25 PM »
If the point is that Ghost is a post-'95, slow, groover, and evidence of a less, cutting
edge, fringe, phish, than sure - the point may be, in some ways, valid - Phish was never
the rocknauts they were pre-'96, after the funk; it sounds to me like an oldie who didn't
like the shift in Phish's direction - i know a lot of phans that felt that Phish died after the
NYE '95 show.........but that was a band decision, conscious or not, shortly after, or even
during the 10/31/06 show..........Ghost was only a symptom of the a full, band, shift........
you no longer heard the a-tonal (but often wonderfully melodic), chaotic, frezy-jams of winter
'95 or the chromatic madness of summer/winter '94 - you heard either funk, permagroove,
or ambient jams........and the reality is that many people enjoy that sound and that's why
you had so many new fans in the late 90s.........did these new phans kill phish, b/c of the power
of ghost?  Lordy.........

did ghost kill phish?   no........did funk kill the pre-'96 phish? no - 1996 in general killed pre-'96
phish.    evolution killled old phish and did the same to ALL phish........

gotta admire the passion though......we all seem to have it still.........

Offline Gumbo72203

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2005, 08:05:44 PM »
hey itsnot - id really like you to go into detail about the whole Phish dieing after NYE 95... this is a topic ive grazed over briefly but really dont know that much about at all...   what actually happened?  did the beginning of 96 bring on the funked out Ghost stuff?  i dont think Ghost was debuted until early 97... right?  i could be wrong   but yeah, i would reaaaaalllly love to read a very lonnnng (hint hint) in-depth intellectual response to this whole post NYE 95, halloween 96 direction shift and whatnot... please fill me in
"Just drink some water, and breathe through your nose."  -Slim, 3/7/09


%% with alternated lyrics about a 1995 jeep cherokee that was also sacraficed on this tour.

I think I got it but he's such a spaz he'll probably never open this thread again

Offline Itsnotanexperience

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 09:12:50 AM »
gumbo -

here's my take (and i wish i had enough time to really divulge
on this and pull in some other sources for info - but i'm at work
and a nutshell version will have to do for now), and remember, I'm
not claiming to know much of anything on any level other than stories
i've heard or read, and other stuff i've gathered just on my own, so
this is not the end-all/be-all story of this........plus, there are many
other heads on the 'week that can tell this story too - mine will only
be a slight overview:

basically, phish reached a peak of sorts on 12/31/95 - it was the culmination
on some of the best playing, ever, in their history - december '95 has some
of the most magical, energetic, and inspried playing phish ever did - check
any show from december '95 and you'll hear tight playing and amazing jams - they're
different than any other phish eras in that they combine the spotanaety of '93 and
'94, but w/ a far more melodic center.......this was in stark contrast to the
"space camp" jams of summer '95, which left many, such as myself, wanting something
more meangingful - december '95 truly provided that.

1996 was an off-year in most people's minds b/c rather than push past that NYE peak,
they kind of slid down the mountain a bit and tried to find a new direction.  the
playing in '96 was very good, but the jams were mostly lackluster - notable exceptions
exist (8/6/96, 8/10/96, 8/16/96, 8/17/96, 11/27/96, 12/6/96, 12/29/96), but overall,
phish fell into what many called permagroove - jams w/ little dynamics - very dancey, but
nothing to write home about............

10/31/96 marked the initial shift from the older phish ('92 to '95) to the late 90s
phish ('97-'00) - Remain In The Light is a funky album in spots......they apparently
worked very hard to bang out this album for the '96 Halloween show, and it's during this time that the funk was born;  throw in Karl Perazzo's suggestion that the band stretch out and jam on 2001, and you have a rough blue print they'd adhere to for several years.......

of course in '97, phish busts out Ghost which became a new style jam vehicle for them - funky for sure, but also a breeding ground for ambience, texture, and a more enhanced (and better) permagroove;  BEK was born as well, but even old tunes like YEM, Antelope, and Tube took on a far more funky flavor............the real completion of the shift came on 3/1/97 in the middle of Wolfman's - and you can literally hear the shift - mike goes out of the regular, type-I jam into a different key and suddenly, phish was playing straight funk.

again, none of this is overly insightful info - the tapes bear all of this out.......but the reality is that '96 and even '97 turned off many, many, phans who were more into phish's chaotic side.......that's why you'll see so many old-skool heads bitch about the late 90s stuff - they feel that '93-'95 was the SHIT, and that anything after was far more accessible to less "hip" phish heads........they'll also argue that it doesn't take anything to play funk and that the band's overall jam ambition was instantly diminished.

that's up for debate, but that's essentially where the line is drawn...........

Offline Gumbo72203

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 01:35:08 PM »
no kidding.  that makes a lot of sense, and also gives me a lot more insight into Jedi's incessant pumping of 12/2/95 as the best YEM.  it also ties the knot on something that i had like, this feeling about... but never really any true backing evidence... that being this general feeling that 96 was something of a...  an empty year so to speak; like nothing truly monumental happened to make it stand out as a prime year of Phistory (like 97 is for the funk, 93 for the crazy setlists, etc).  

honestly, i think i prefer the post 95 jams.  its just my personal taste, but to me, the ultimate jam is something that makes it impossible for you to stop dancing while at the same time being musically intense and exploratory and groundbreaking - not really so much focused on a shitkickin shredding Trey solo, if that makes any sense at all.  i mean, dont get me wrong, i absolutely looooove hearing Trey rip the shit out of Down With Disease or a Pebbles and Marbles or a Maze, but i think my personal taste is definitely more centered around the permagroove ie: 8/10/04 Bag, 7/22/03 Gumbo, 11/17/97 Ghost and Tweezer, 12/31/98 Mikes, etc etc.  but thats just me
"Just drink some water, and breathe through your nose."  -Slim, 3/7/09


%% with alternated lyrics about a 1995 jeep cherokee that was also sacraficed on this tour.

I think I got it but he's such a spaz he'll probably never open this thread again

Offline Itsnotanexperience

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2005, 02:37:58 PM »
gumbo -

i hear what you're saying, and i think jedifunk, among others, would
agree that the post-'96 stuff is his favorite as well;  i kind of go
back and forth between '97, '94 and '95 as my favorite years;  but then,
'93 has some amazing material as well, as does '99, '00 and '03/'04;

i was talking to my bass player last night and we were talking about how
good the last alpine show (6/26/04) was and how it's definitely one of our
top 5 favorite shows ever;  his first show was in '91 and mine was in '94 -
he tends to prefer the '91-'95 phish over the cowfunk, and we debate the merits
of old/new phish all the time....but post-hiatus phish has magic too, as much
as anything prior to;

12/2/95 would be the great tweezer ever, for the record (or at least a top 5)
12/9/95 would be the YEM funk talks about......it's a damn good version for sure

i think a lot of newer fans make the mistake that the old stuff is somehow less
advanced or not as good, but the shows in 8/93, 11/94, and 12/95 - for those who
haven't checked them out - will blow your skull wide open.......

but in the end, i'm a 1997-head;  i've always loved, well-played, funk, and you
get so much of that in '97;  but you also get a new style of jamming overall - the
jam in the starlake '97 ghost, funky at times, is such a delicious sound, not limited
strictly to funk.........plus, page's use of his clavinet w/ an envelop filter (whatever
it was he used to take the attack off the front of the notes he played) was also a
great addition to the phish sound - it was almost, at times, like another guitar.

yeah dude - the entire 11/17/97 show is amazing!!!

hachiemachie

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2005, 03:06:52 PM »
Yo, Itsnot, what band are you in?

Offline Itsnotanexperience

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2005, 03:46:55 PM »
an as of yet, unheard sonic project called the harwood project;  we've
been rehearsing off and on for the past year, making demos, recording,
jamming, etc.........it mostly a small circle of friends - some of us have
played together before, others are just kind of starting out;   right now
we're just polishing up our original material and making ready to start playing out;  we have a tentative gig lined up at the Greatful Inn, and another 2-man gig lined up
at Adolphos down in south city.

it's mostly a labor of love - these guys are my best friends, and not
all of them have playing experience (as far as playing out) - we can
jam with the best of 'em, and our originals are pretty good (some of
which i posted, along with my underground dance tracks on BT back in
march and may).

i'll let you know when some of this becomes more concrete - but if you
want to hear any of our/my stuff - i can repost the torrents.......

Offline Hokker

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2005, 07:36:33 AM »
I think this has been flogged to death and agree with most of the posters here. I like different years depending on the mood I am in. Early ninties stuff when I need a pick me up and post 97 stuff for when I am cleaning the house or doing a long car trip. Sometimes different stuff will strike me in different ways. Because of the far more knowledgeable folks on this board I have discovered that to exclusivly stick to one era of Phish you are short changing yourself. I don't get the time I used to have to listen to tunes so I am not as knowledgeable about shows as I used to be (in the old GD analog days) and have become dependant on reviews and recommendations from here and bt-etree and the etree DB. So please get those little reviews in the db for people like me who are searching for the spark and will listen to any year to get it.


P.S. I will NOT submit I will post this!
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Offline Gumbo72203

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interesting thing i just read....
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2005, 01:04:33 PM »
dude hokker if youre looking for some spark, August 93 and June 94 are ripping (6/18/94 specifically).  but august 93.... wow.  like...  that is to absolute super-craziness-setlist-shredding as Fall 97 is to the funk....
"Just drink some water, and breathe through your nose."  -Slim, 3/7/09


%% with alternated lyrics about a 1995 jeep cherokee that was also sacraficed on this tour.

I think I got it but he's such a spaz he'll probably never open this thread again