Author Topic: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)  (Read 42389 times)

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Offline V00D00BR3W

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1080 on: January 12, 2012, 03:48:49 PM »
Interesting contrasting views.

I would submit that a person should simultaneously be capable of killing if necessary during war and also making sound judgments in other areas, thus it's perfectly acceptable to criticize the soldiers for this regardless of the fact that they would have just killed those same now-dead bodies.

Given what we know about the power of propaganda, and what happens to certain segments of the Muslim extremist population when, e.g., someone draws a cartoon about Mohammad, it's not unreasonable to expect our fighting forces to realize how incendiary something like this could be. This isn't fog-of-war, heat-of-battle stuff, this is people whipping out dicks and a camera and cracking wise about it.

Yes, the dudes were already killed, and yes, plenty of Middle Easterners hate the U.S. plenty based on that already, but this is throwing fuel on the fire.
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Offline kellerb

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1081 on: January 12, 2012, 04:46:04 PM »
Yes, the dudes were already killed, and yes, plenty of Middle Easterners hate the U.S. plenty based on that already, but this is throwing fuel on the fire.

OR, they were playing "firemen."   :evil:

Offline nab

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1082 on: January 12, 2012, 06:08:20 PM »
One of the most interesting facets of the American Civil War (alright the War of Northern Aggression for you southerners) was that for the first time people were confronted with photographic evidence of the actions of war.  This process was echoed during the Vietnam war which was one of the first wars to be broadly telecast.  Now we have photographic evidence coming from every direction, and war is no exception.

Is this incident an example of honorable warfare?  I think not.  Am I surprised?  Not really. 


Now that we are presented with evidence of dishonor in war, the soldiers should be disciplined. 

Now that we are presented with evidence of dishumanization, we (and I mean everyone) should take the opportunity to understand what war really is and how ugly it can become.       

Offline birdman

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1083 on: January 12, 2012, 06:43:34 PM »
One of the most interesting facets of the American Civil War (alright the War of Northern Aggression for you southerners) was that for the first time people were confronted with photographic evidence of the actions of war.  This process was echoed during the Vietnam war which was one of the first wars to be broadly telecast.  Now we have photographic evidence coming from every direction, and war is no exception.

Is this incident an example of honorable warfare?  I think not.  Am I surprised?  Not really. 


Now that we are presented with evidence of dishonor in war, the soldiers should be disciplined. 

Now that we are presented with evidence of dishumanization, we (and I mean everyone) should take the opportunity to understand what war really is and how ugly it can become.       

Well said. I wholeheartedly agree.
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Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1084 on: January 12, 2012, 10:19:43 PM »
One of the most interesting facets of the American Civil War (alright the War of Northern Aggression for you southerners) was that for the first time people were confronted with photographic evidence of the actions of war.  This process was echoed during the Vietnam war which was one of the first wars to be broadly telecast.  Now we have photographic evidence coming from every direction, and war is no exception.

Is this incident an example of honorable warfare?  I think not.  Am I surprised?  Not really. 


Now that we are presented with evidence of dishonor in war, the soldiers should be disciplined. 

Now that we are presented with evidence of dishumanization, we (and I mean everyone) should take the opportunity to understand what war really is and how ugly it can become.     

Agreed. It would be nice to believe we've learned a lesson from the past decade. Instead, they're gearing up for the next war with Ira_.

Offline Superfreakie

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1085 on: January 14, 2012, 02:50:12 AM »
It would be nice to believe we've learned a lesson from the past decade.

History, with all her volumes vast, hath but one page.

- Lord Byron

Quote
Robert Fisk: This is not about 'bad apples'. This is the horror of war
How many other abuses took place off camera? How many Hadithas? How many My Lais?


So now it's snapshots of US Marines pissing on the Afghan dead. Better, I suppose, than the US soldiers pictured beside the innocent Afghan teenager they fragged back in March of last year. Or the female guard posing with the dead Iraqi prisoner at Abu Ghraib. Not to mention Haditha or the murder videos taken by US troops in the field – the grenading of an old shepherd by an Iraqi highway comes to mind – or My Lai or the massacre of refugees by US forces in Korea or the murder of Malayan villagers by British troops. Or the Bloody Sunday massacre of 14 Catholics by British troops in Derry in 1972. And please note, I have not even mentioned the name of Baha Mousa.

The US Marines' response to the pissing pictures was oh so typical. These men were not abiding by the "core values" of the Marines, we were informed. Same old story. A "rogue" unit, a few "bad apples", rotten eggs. Maybe.

But if there is one game of pissing on the dead, how many others happened without pictures? How many other shepherds got fragged in Iraq? How many other Hadithas have there been? There were plenty of other My Lais.

As laptop filmography gets better, so it all comes slopping out, the rapes and slaughter – and yes, by the Taliban the stoning of young women for supposed sexual misconduct in Afghanistan; by al-Qa'ida, executions and throat-cuttings in Iraq.

And no – the Americans are not the Nazis, the Brits are not the French Paras of 1960 Algeria (but surely we're not comparing the French paras to the Nazis). The Canadians handed prisoners over to Afghan thugs for brutal questioning but the Canadians are not like Saddam's secret police – and, I suppose, the Taliban are not Stalin's NKVD or Putin's KGB (before he became a statesman). And you can't compare – surely – the Soviet invaders of Afghanistan in 1979 with Genghis Khan.

So let's take a little guessing game. A British Sunday paper reveals shocking revelations of torture and cigarette burning, of physical brutality where prisoners must be hospitalised for a week, of possible electric torture. The French in Algeria? Saddam's mukhabarat? Nope. It's The Sunday Times Insight Team's report of 7 May 1972; the victims, of course, IRA suspects in Belfast. A "rogue" unit? A "few bad apples"? I doubt it.

When the Gloucestershire Regiment went on a rampage near Divis flats, smashing every window in the street the day before they were due to leave Belfast, the line was changed. They had been under "enormous strain" – but weren't these the "Glorious Gloucesters" of Imjin River fame? And the killer Paras of Derry – weren't these the same Paras of Arnhem Bridge?

And so we go on. Yes, British troops murdered SS prisoners after Normandy – just as the Red Army did in the Second World War and the Americans. And all this gets a bit dull, doesn't it?

Dresden was worse than the Blitz – but who started it? Hiroshima was worse than Pearl Harbour (ditto). The Canadians bayoneted German prisoners in the First World War – but the Germans really did committed atrocities in Belgium in 1914. And what about Waterloo? What did we do with the heaps of French dead? Why, we honoured them by shipping their corpses off to Lincolnshire and using them as manure on the fields of East Anglia.

If war were not about the total failure of the human spirit, there would be something grotesquely funny about the American reaction to the pissing pictures.

For note, it was not the killing of these men that worried the Marine Corps in the US – it was the pissing. Nothing wrong in killing amid the "core values" of the Marine Corps; you just shouldn't urinate on the corpses. And even more to the point: YOU MUSTN'T DO IT ON CAMERA! Too late. It comes to this. Armies are horrible creatures and soldiers do wicked things but when we accept all these lies about "bad apples" and the exceptionalism of crime in war – "there may have been some excesses" is the usual dictator-speak – we are accepting war and going along with the dishonesty of it and we are making it more possible and easier and the killings and rapes more excusable and more frequent.

And how should armies react? With one word: guilty.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 06:03:45 AM by Superfreakie »
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Offline Superfreakie

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1086 on: February 14, 2012, 01:37:14 PM »
Not sure if you guys have noticed but Judge Napolitano on FOX has been going off for the last year.....well, FOX has cancelled the show now, for a couple reasons........

« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 01:39:10 PM by Superfreakie »
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Offline V00D00BR3W

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1087 on: February 14, 2012, 02:52:19 PM »
Not sure if you guys have noticed but Judge Napolitano on FOX has been going off for the last year.....well, FOX has cancelled the show now, for a couple reasons........



Pretty good stuff there, even though I don't agree with his conclusion that Ron Paul is the answer. But to the questions Napolitano raises, and given the way he raises them, I'll grant that Paul does feel more like the answer than most of today's garden-variety politicians, even though I'm not a Paul backer.

Interestingly, the cancellation of that show was mentioned in this article:

Fox News 'course correction' rankles some

Too long to quote but it's a good read, about how FN has supposedly moderated some of it's hard-right sensibilities.
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Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1088 on: February 14, 2012, 03:56:34 PM »
I was a big fan of the Judge (except when he would get too religiously sanctimonious from time to time). I figured he would be let go if the GOP won back the White House, but I was surprised they got rid off him already. I guess he was a little too unabashed in his critique of the GOP field; he slammed Romney, Santorum & Gingrich as disingenuous, self-serving blowhards every chance he got. And whether or not you agreed with his conclusions, it was definitely refreshing to hear someone in the mainstream who wasn't afraid to call bullshit on the political class based on their party affiliation.

On the plus side, I no longer have to pay extra for Fox Business Network. So I got that going for me. Which is nice.

One of my favorite Judge quotes (paraphrased) from when he was on The Daily Show a couple of weeks ago:

Quote
We do not have two political parties in this country, we have one party called the Big Government Party with two distinct wings. The Republican wing likes war, deficit spending, and corporate welfare. The Democratic wing likes war, taxes, and individual welfare. Both parties like power and neither is interested in your freedoms.

Offline gah

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1089 on: February 14, 2012, 04:12:57 PM »
I can dig on that paraphrase.
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Offline slslbs

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1090 on: February 14, 2012, 05:07:23 PM »
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
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Offline V00D00BR3W

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Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1092 on: February 17, 2012, 06:35:26 PM »
NJ Gov. Chris Christie vetoes gay marriage bill the day after it passes. I really don't get the right's fascination with this guy. He seems like just another big gov't psuedo-conservative like the rest of them. Maybe it's his Jersey Shore attitude.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501365_162-57380574/n.j-gov-christie-vetoes-gay-marriage-bill/

Quote
N.J. Gov. Christie vetoes gay marriage bill

(AP)  TRENTON, N.J. - Gov. Chris Christie has followed through on his promise to reject a bill allowing same-sex marriage in New Jersey by quickly vetoing the measure Friday.
The veto came a day after the state Assembly passed the bill. The state Senate had passed it on Monday. Christie, a Republican who opposes same-sex marriage, had vowed "very swift action" once the bill reached his desk.

In returning the bill to the Legislature, Christie reaffirmed his view that voters should decide whether to change the definition of marriage in New Jersey. His veto also proposed creating an ombudsman to oversee compliance with the state's civil union law, which same-sex couples have said is flawed.

"I am adhering to what I've said since this bill was first introduced -- an issue of this magnitude and importance, which requires a constitutional amendment, should be left to the people of New Jersey to decide," Christie said in a statement. "I continue to encourage the Legislature to trust the people of New Jersey and seek their input by allowing our citizens to vote on a question that represents a profoundly significant societal change. This is the only path to amend our State Constitution and the best way to resolve the issue of same-sex marriage in our state."

Democrats who had pushed the bill forward said they were disappointed, but not surprised, by Christie's action.

"It's unfortunate that the governor would let his own personal ideology infringe on the rights of thousands of New Jerseyans," said Reed Gusciora, one of two openly gay New Jersey lawmakers and a sponsor of the bill. "For all those who oppose marriage equality, their lives would have been completely unchanged by this bill, but for same-sex couples, their lives would have been radically transformed. Unfortunately, the governor couldn't see past his own personal ambitions to honor this truth."

Senate President Steve Sweeney was more blunt in his criticism of the governor.

"He had a chance to do the right thing, and failed miserably," Sweeney said.

Proponents of the bill said gay marriage is a civil right being denied to gay couples, while opponents said the definition of marriage as a heterosexual institution should not be expanded. The legislation contains a religious opt-out clause, meaning no church clergy would be required to perform gay marriages and places of worship would not have to allow same-sex weddings at their facilities.

Steven Goldstein, chairman of the state's largest gay rights group, Garden State Equality, said Christie's national political ambitions guided his action.

"He won't veto the bill because he's anti-gay," Goldstein said in a statement issued before the veto was issued Friday. "He'll veto the bill because the 2016 South Carolina presidential primary electorate is anti-gay."

...

Offline ytowndan

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1093 on: February 19, 2012, 01:43:47 AM »
Not really sure where this post belongs, but I found it hilarious and I guess this thread is as good as any. 

http://www.theonion.com/articles/new-breeding-program-aimed-at-keeping-moderate-rep,27371/

Quote
New Breeding Program Aimed At Keeping Moderate Republicans From Going Extinct


WASHINGTON—Saying the now critically endangered species of politician is at high risk for complete extinction within the next 10 years, Beltway-area conservationists announced plans Monday for a new captive breeding program designed to save moderate Republicans.

According to members of the Initiative to Protect the Political Middle (IPPM), centrist Republicans, who once freely roamed the nation calling for both economic deregulation and a return to Reagan-era tax rates on the wealthy, are in dire need of protection, having lost large portions of their natural terrain to the highly territorial Evangelical and Tea Party breeds.

"Our new program is designed to isolate the few remaining specimens of moderate Republicans, mate them in captivity, and then safely release these rare and precious creatures back into the electorate," said IPPM’s Cynthia Rollins, who traces the decline of the species to changes in the political climate and rampant, predatory fanaticism. "Within our safe, enclosed habitats, these middle-of-the-road Republican Party members can freely support increased funding for public education and even gay rights without being threatened by the far-right subgenus."

Working within a narrow three-election-cycle window to reverse the decline before extinction becomes imminent, political conservationists told reporters they have already begun the arduous process of tracking down members of the elusive breed of sensible, non-reactionary public officeholders, which a generation ago was one of the most plentiful GOP species in existence.

IPPM officials also said that while there is no guarantee they will ever be able to restore the moderate-Republican population to its once-teeming levels, "every effort must be made" to forcibly breed the species and at least keep it alive in the Midwest and Northeast, where its chances for survival remain highest.

"Last week we shot Gov. Mitch Daniels with a tranquilizer dart from a blind we'd set up near the Indiana Capitol, and we plan on mating him very soon with a senator we trapped up in Maine," said IPPM reproductive expert Gabriel Burke, adding that forced breeding of centrist Republicans in captivity is a humane, carefully regulated procedure designed to simulate mating in the wild. "While captive specimens tend to be wary around each other at first, once they sense they're both opponents of labor unions yet also willing to make tough compromises on collective bargaining rights, the sexual ritual begins almost instantly."

Added Burke, "In fact, one of our specimens, Sen. Scott Brown of Massachusetts, has already been mated with five or six other regional lawmakers in the past week alone."

Though hopes for the captive breeding program remain high, many leading political conservationists note the number of optimal habitats for moderate, freethinking Republicans across the country has shrunk drastically, with studies showing the species may never again be able to recover in areas where it has been totally eradicated, such as the South and the GOP caucus in the House of Representatives.

As they continue to search for nonextremist conservatives with the vaguest ability to compromise on social issues like abortion in cases of rape and incest, IPPM officials acknowledged they may be fighting a race against time.

"The most difficult task we have is preserving members of this disappearing breed before the desperate need for votes forces them to begin parroting borderline racist anti-immigration ideologies and accusing their opponents of being socialists," tracker Phil Gandelman said. "We thought we had captured and tagged a truly exemplary specimen a few weeks ago, but when we studied the creature more closely, we realized it was just John McCain."

"The poor little guy was so far gone we had to put him out of his misery," Gandelman added.

Representatives for the IPPM said they hope their current effort will prove more successful than past attempt to propagate moderates by crossbreeding highly liberal and extreme conservative politicians, which ended in tragedy when Vermont senator Bernie Sanders was physically mauled and torn apart by Rep. Lynn Jenkins (R-KS).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 01:45:52 AM by ytowndan »
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Offline slslbs

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Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #1094 on: February 19, 2012, 11:34:48 AM »
^^^
priceless
In a way, I wish it were true.
mate Brown with Olympia Snow

anyway, I'm sure you've all heard this by now, if not here is a legendary quote from Foster Freiss, a billionaire backer of Santorum. kinda sad the direction some people want to go in

Quote
FRIESS: On this contraceptive thing, my gosh, it’s so inexpensive. You know, back in my days, they used Bayer Aspirin for contraceptives. The gals put it between their knees and it wasn’t that costly.

Watch it:

"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."