Author Topic: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)  (Read 123105 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ytowndan

  • Stole The Book
  • Media Center Admin
  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: 1327
  • Gender: Male
    • My List
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2925 on: October 05, 2018, 03:48:11 PM »
dan was saying there is no equivalence between the two parties, but then (rightly IMO) implies tribalism prevents the two sides from seeing eye to eye. My point was that if you can't see that both sides have been acting in bad faith, that in itself is an admission of tribalism

Now I see what you mean.  I thought you were saying that being against tribalism is somehow in conflict with calling out arguments of false equivalence.
 
The thing is, though, it 100% is a false equivalence to suggest that both sides are to blame for our currently fucked up political climate.  That's not an unwitting admission of liberal tribalism, it's just a fact.  The lunacy of the American Right has nothing even remotely close to a leftwing counterpart.  It's not even close.  It's radically asymmetrical, and my original point was to give kudos to Friedman for getting that right, because he's the kind of self-styled centrist you'd expect to make that argument. 
You never drink alone when you have something good to listen to.

Offline runawayjimbo

  • Wrote the Book
  • **
  • Posts: 4825
  • Karma: 187
  • Gender: Male
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2926 on: October 05, 2018, 04:16:21 PM »
dan was saying there is no equivalence between the two parties, but then (rightly IMO) implies tribalism prevents the two sides from seeing eye to eye. My point was that if you can't see that both sides have been acting in bad faith, that in itself is an admission of tribalism

Now I see what you mean.  I thought you were saying that being against tribalism is somehow in conflict with calling out arguments of false equivalence.
 
The thing is, though, it 100% is a false equivalence to suggest that both sides are to blame for our currently fucked up political climate.  That's not an unwitting admission of liberal tribalism, it's just a fact.  The lunacy of the American Right has nothing even remotely close to a leftwing counterpart.  It's not even close.  It's radically asymmetrical, and my original point was to give kudos to Friedman for getting that right, because he's the kind of self-styled centrist you'd expect to make that argument.

You're doing it again  :wink:

I understand that you believe that to be true, but I don't think that is an objectively falsifiable statement. I'm old enough to remember when the left used to mock conservatives for saying they felt like Obama was destroying the country, yet here we are, a couple years later (although it feels a lot longer) and you guys are expressing the same feelings they had. Now, I am by no means making an equivalence between the two as presidents, I am simply saying that our perceptions shape our realities so scorekeeping over who politically wronged whom first/harder is inherently unhelpful IMO. What is more important at this moment in our highly toxic and divisive environment is self-reflection and empathy. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for what you believe; if anything that is more important than ever. But it does mean if you consistently fall on the same side of every issue without ever seeing fault in our own tribe, it makes it much harder to find common ground.

That Merrick Garland stat tho...

Offline gah

  • Dans et hors du foyer, le temps tourne le temps, élastiques virages
  • Gamehendge
  • ***
  • Posts: 16793
  • Karma: 687
  • Gender: Male
  • The circus is the place for me....
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2927 on: October 05, 2018, 05:10:53 PM »
dan was saying there is no equivalence between the two parties, but then (rightly IMO) implies tribalism prevents the two sides from seeing eye to eye. My point was that if you can't see that both sides have been acting in bad faith, that in itself is an admission of tribalism

Now I see what you mean.  I thought you were saying that being against tribalism is somehow in conflict with calling out arguments of false equivalence.
 
The thing is, though, it 100% is a false equivalence to suggest that both sides are to blame for our currently fucked up political climate.  That's not an unwitting admission of liberal tribalism, it's just a fact.  The lunacy of the American Right has nothing even remotely close to a leftwing counterpart.  It's not even close.  It's radically asymmetrical, and my original point was to give kudos to Friedman for getting that right, because he's the kind of self-styled centrist you'd expect to make that argument.

You're doing it again  :wink:

I understand that you believe that to be true, but I don't think that is an objectively falsifiable statement. I'm old enough to remember when the left used to mock conservatives for saying they felt like Obama was destroying the country, yet here we are, a couple years later (although it feels a lot longer) and you guys are expressing the same feelings they had. Now, I am by no means making an equivalence between the two as presidents, I am simply saying that our perceptions shape our realities so scorekeeping over who politically wronged whom first/harder is inherently unhelpful IMO. What is more important at this moment in our highly toxic and divisive environment is self-reflection and empathy. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for what you believe; if anything that is more important than ever. But it does mean if you consistently fall on the same side of every issue without ever seeing fault in our own tribe, it makes it much harder to find common ground.

That Merrick Garland stat tho...

And somehow you think you're outside of the realm of being influenced by your own perceptions and realities? You somehow aren't wearing tinted glasses? Cause most of your remarks come off exactly as one might expect given your race and sex.

And your response to my question was basically a regurgitation of this op ed piece off Fox? So does that mean you just happen to read and listen to both sides because you're so above the fray? Or did you only take that one side into consideration? You don't actually have to reply to those, because I won't bother reading your response, just being honest. I don't really take any of this seriously. It's all Maya after all. I try not to delve too much into the political realm these days, but I guess I had some extra time on my hands today. And the majority of the time I skip over what you write, not because I don't think you have valid points to make, but the way you present yourself and your view points...I just can't vibe with it. That's about the nicest way I could say that.  :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/feinstein-v-kavanaugh-anatomy-of-a-character-assassination
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

Offline ytowndan

  • Stole The Book
  • Media Center Admin
  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: 1327
  • Gender: Male
    • My List
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2928 on: October 05, 2018, 05:34:26 PM »
dan was saying there is no equivalence between the two parties, but then (rightly IMO) implies tribalism prevents the two sides from seeing eye to eye. My point was that if you can't see that both sides have been acting in bad faith, that in itself is an admission of tribalism

Now I see what you mean.  I thought you were saying that being against tribalism is somehow in conflict with calling out arguments of false equivalence.
 
The thing is, though, it 100% is a false equivalence to suggest that both sides are to blame for our currently fucked up political climate.  That's not an unwitting admission of liberal tribalism, it's just a fact.  The lunacy of the American Right has nothing even remotely close to a leftwing counterpart.  It's not even close.  It's radically asymmetrical, and my original point was to give kudos to Friedman for getting that right, because he's the kind of self-styled centrist you'd expect to make that argument.

You're doing it again  :wink:

I understand that you believe that to be true, but I don't think that is an objectively falsifiable statement. I'm old enough to remember when the left used to mock conservatives for saying they felt like Obama was destroying the country, yet here we are, a couple years later (although it feels a lot longer) and you guys are expressing the same feelings they had. Now, I am by no means making an equivalence between the two as presidents, I am simply saying that our perceptions shape our realities so scorekeeping over who politically wronged whom first/harder is inherently unhelpful IMO. What is more important at this moment in our highly toxic and divisive environment is self-reflection and empathy. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for what you believe; if anything that is more important than ever. But it does mean if you consistently fall on the same side of every issue without ever seeing fault in our own tribe, it makes it much harder to find common ground.

That Merrick Garland stat tho...

Well, I don't really know what else to say.  I suppose we've gone about as far as we can on the whole "both sides" topic.

As for the Garland/Kavanaugh stat, I'd be interested to see how that breaks down.  I wonder how much of that 96% is made up of procedural issues that any two jurists would agree on, and how much of the 4% is made up of the big "hot topic" issues?  I'd love to see an article that breaks that down, if anyone comes across one. 
You never drink alone when you have something good to listen to.

Offline sunrisevt

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 6010
  • Karma: 322
  • Gender: Male
  • C'est pour nous proteger, les fleurs et bougies
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2929 on: October 05, 2018, 06:11:46 PM »
jimbo, you are practicing false equivalence. The hyperventilation from the right about Obama ruining the country by trying to effect health care reform, end W’s disastrous wars, and restore the economy after the crash were absolutely worthy of derision. The same is simply not true of the alarm with which we are reacting to Trump’s persistent trashing of virtually everything good about this country. They’re not remotely in the same league.
Quote from: Eleanor Marsail
I love you, daddy. Actually, I love all the people. Even the ones who I don't know their name.

Offline slslbs

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 15006
  • Karma: 1036
  • Gender: Male
  • Let there be songs to fill the air
    • music list
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2930 on: October 07, 2018, 05:26:01 PM »
There was no equivalence to Obama's SCOTUS nominee not getting a confirmation hearing. Other, lesser appointments have been blocked by both sides, but nothing at all relates to what happened to Garland.
There was no equivalence to McConnell saying that his number 1 job was to make Obama a one term president.
Cap and Trade was a GOP idea when GHWB was in office. Obama said its a good idea and the GOP said no, it's a new tax
The principles of ACA came from the GOP during the Clinton admin. Romney got it passed in MA. The GOP said no. Romney said he thought it was a dumb idea.
At Obama's 2nd SOTU address, he applauded then NH Sen Gregg (GOP) for his bill regarding deficit reduction. At the time, there were 9 GOP co sponsors. The next day they all bailed.
The part of the ACA for "ethics committees" helping families deal with end of life decisions came from a GOP Senator. It got labelled by the R wing press Death Panels. No one on the GOP side called them out.
Could you ever imagine an American president, especially one of the party of Reagan, who dubbed the USSR "the evil empire" say that we were as much to blame for bad US - Russian relations, and he believed Putin more than our intelligence service?
Can you ever imagine an American Prez speaking against freedom of the press. Can you imagine an American Prez thinking protest should be illegal? And no one in his party calling him out? Really? What happened to the Constitution?

yes, both parties are about power, but there is no question who takes it to the extreme.
None
the GOP is dangerous
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

Offline Hicks

  • IKKULUS
  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 21830
  • Karma: 1392
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2931 on: October 07, 2018, 05:37:27 PM »
There was no equivalence to Obama's SCOTUS nominee not getting a confirmation hearing. Other, lesser appointments have been blocked by both sides, but nothing at all relates to what happened to Garland.
There was no equivalence to McConnell saying that his number 1 job was to make Obama a one term president.
Cap and Trade was a GOP idea when GHWB was in office. Obama said its a good idea and the GOP said no, it's a new tax
The principles of ACA came from the GOP during the Clinton admin. Romney got it passed in MA. The GOP said no. Romney said he thought it was a dumb idea.
At Obama's 2nd SOTU address, he applauded then NH Sen Gregg (GOP) for his bill regarding deficit reduction. At the time, there were 9 GOP co sponsors. The next day they all bailed.
The part of the ACA for "ethics committees" helping families deal with end of life decisions came from a GOP Senator. It got labelled by the R wing press Death Panels. No one on the GOP side called them out.
Could you ever imagine an American president, especially one of the party of Reagan, who dubbed the USSR "the evil empire" say that we were as much to blame for bad US - Russian relations, and he believed Putin more than our intelligence service?
Can you ever imagine an American Prez speaking against freedom of the press. Can you imagine an American Prez thinking protest should be illegal? And no one in his party calling him out? Really? What happened to the Constitution?

yes, both parties are about power, but there is no question who takes it to the extreme.
None
the GOP is dangerous

Truthbomb goes boom! 
Quote from: Trey Anastasio
But, I don't think our fans do happily lap it up, I think they go online and talk about how it was a bad show.

Offline jam>

  • Reading The Book...
  • *
  • Posts: 1312
  • Karma: 109
  • Gender: Male
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2932 on: October 08, 2018, 12:05:27 PM »
There was no equivalence to Obama's SCOTUS nominee not getting a confirmation hearing. Other, lesser appointments have been blocked by both sides, but nothing at all relates to what happened to Garland.
There was no equivalence to McConnell saying that his number 1 job was to make Obama a one term president.
Cap and Trade was a GOP idea when GHWB was in office. Obama said its a good idea and the GOP said no, it's a new tax
The principles of ACA came from the GOP during the Clinton admin. Romney got it passed in MA. The GOP said no. Romney said he thought it was a dumb idea.
At Obama's 2nd SOTU address, he applauded then NH Sen Gregg (GOP) for his bill regarding deficit reduction. At the time, there were 9 GOP co sponsors. The next day they all bailed.
The part of the ACA for "ethics committees" helping families deal with end of life decisions came from a GOP Senator. It got labelled by the R wing press Death Panels. No one on the GOP side called them out.
Could you ever imagine an American president, especially one of the party of Reagan, who dubbed the USSR "the evil empire" say that we were as much to blame for bad US - Russian relations, and he believed Putin more than our intelligence service?
Can you ever imagine an American Prez speaking against freedom of the press. Can you imagine an American Prez thinking protest should be illegal? And no one in his party calling him out? Really? What happened to the Constitution?

yes, both parties are about power, but there is no question who takes it to the extreme.
None
the GOP is dangerous

You nailed it. Thanks for sharing.

Offline Buffalo Budd

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 15922
  • Karma: 642
  • Gender: Male
  • 'Looking for owls?' the young man asked.
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2933 on: October 09, 2018, 09:27:52 AM »
This really breaks the whole Kavanaugh/metoo# thing down imo.

Instead of having to plan and save for your next vacation, why not work on creating a life you don't feel the need to escape from...

I suspect putin and trump have something to do with this
that's great. people are stupid.
My records are my media for music.

Offline slslbs

  • Gamehendge
  • ****
  • Posts: 15006
  • Karma: 1036
  • Gender: Male
  • Let there be songs to fill the air
    • music list
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2934 on: October 10, 2018, 09:50:50 PM »
it breaks down that asshole's entire mo

great, but sad
"toss away stuff you don't need in the end
but keep what's important, and know who's your friend"
"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses."

Offline ytowndan

  • Stole The Book
  • Media Center Admin
  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: 1327
  • Gender: Male
    • My List
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2935 on: October 11, 2018, 10:01:53 AM »
You never drink alone when you have something good to listen to.

Offline gah

  • Dans et hors du foyer, le temps tourne le temps, élastiques virages
  • Gamehendge
  • ***
  • Posts: 16793
  • Karma: 687
  • Gender: Male
  • The circus is the place for me....
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2936 on: October 12, 2018, 10:38:16 AM »
Yeah, that Trevor Noah clip is spot on.
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own.

Offline kellerb

  • In the Band
  • ***
  • Posts: 9675
  • Karma: 754
  • Gender: Male
  • YEMLESS
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2937 on: October 12, 2018, 07:28:43 PM »
Courtesy of my 6-month-old, I realized what makes Trump's face that color.

It's sweet potato baby food.

Not sure who his nanny is, but they are not doing a good job cleaning up after suppertime.

Offline KingOfPrussia2155

  • Reading The Book...
  • *
  • Posts: 1065
  • Karma: 30
  • Gender: Male
  • My intent is all for your delight
I can only imagine how much I would hate people at an event like 'roo.

Pebbles and marbles, like things on my mind...

Offline VA $l!m

  • INSPIRED THE F-in' BOOK
  • Lot Security
  • Gamehendge
  • ***
  • Posts: 14132
  • Karma: 653
  • Real Outcasty
Re: Have you heard about...? (Politics edition)
« Reply #2939 on: October 25, 2018, 09:22:24 PM »
sorry maybe this is a thread hijack. i just dont want to make a  thread, but goddam i cant beleive these attempted bombings the other day.
i mean, this shit is pretty real. just cause the President goes and blames it on the media the next day doesnt make it not real.
Can you imagine if even some of those devices killed the intended targets?

i dunno. sometimes i cant believe what the fuck is going on to this country and the downwrad spiral that it seems people are just to warped up in their 24 hr media cycle to even take to heart.
this atmosphere is so fucking toxic right now... seeing these midterm adds tht just say VOTE REPUBLICAN from "mystery" backers to avoid campaign finance, and then show the Dems as angry MObs. All perpetuated by that Orange clown going on tour instead of running the country.
-Shit straight up smacks of Facism in its infancy. i swear to fucking god.
Shits gonna pop off for real one of these days soon the way we're headed.

/end vent. TY.
-I'm still walkin', so i'm sure that I can dance-