Author Topic: Occupy Wall Street  (Read 9155 times)

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Offline rowjimmy

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Offline UncleEbinezer

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #241 on: November 18, 2011, 03:57:16 PM »
More on Student Loans:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-student-loans/2011/11/11/gIQAFf0sYN_story.html

I had a few times where I filed for "forebearance" and they allowed it for a few months.

I am not so sure that these "myths" really change my opinion.  Also, just erasing debt is not really a good answer either.  Now I know that we bailed banks and companies out and I'm not suggesting that was right either, but erasing my loan debt, as much as I'd like it...I don't really deserve that.  A veteran sure, but me or anyone else, why do we have the right to expect my loan to be erased?  My loan payments are $100 per month.  Seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Offline phuzzyfish12

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #242 on: November 18, 2011, 04:07:52 PM »
Personally I am for free education for all. Many other countries offer it and they have a better quality of life.  I realize that Itís not free in the sense that taxes are still paid for it, but Iíd rather pay taxes over time then be expected to pay out $100,000 over 4 years or that same amount for the rest of my life with HUGE interests on top of that.

What good is it going to do to America anyway if our population keeps growing but we have a bunch of uneducated citizens running around?  IMO the US should look outside its borders and see how other countries handle education, health care, etc and try and some how incorporate the things that work for them into the US. What we have from Kindergarten all the way up to PhDs is not working on both the education side and the cost side and it needs to be fixed. Collegeís are corporations now, not places of higher learning (and if you donít that believe me may I direct your attention to the Penn State scandal)  Its time for people to realize how important it is to educate all of our citizens, not just the ones that can afford it.

But what do I know, Iím just a dreamer   8)
 

Offline V00D00BR3W

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #243 on: November 18, 2011, 04:18:09 PM »
Personally I am for free education for all. Many other countries offer it and they have a better quality of life.  I realize that Itís not free in the sense that taxes are still paid for it, but Iíd rather pay taxes over time then be expected to pay out $100,000 over 4 years or that same amount for the rest of my life with HUGE interests on top of that.

What good is it going to do to America anyway if our population keeps growing but we have a bunch of uneducated citizens running around?  IMO the US should look outside its borders and see how other countries handle education, health care, etc and try and some how incorporate the things that work for them into the US. What we have from Kindergarten all the way up to PhDs is not working on both the education side and the cost side and it needs to be fixed. Collegeís are corporations now, not places of higher learning (and if you donít that believe me may I direct your attention to the Penn State scandal)  Its time for people to realize how important it is to educate all of our citizens, not just the ones that can afford it.

But what do I know, Iím just a dreamer   8)

You'd get booed off the stage at a GOP debate for suggesting something like that. Hell, I think Mitt Romney wrote a book about it.
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Offline nab

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #244 on: November 18, 2011, 04:23:24 PM »
Personally I am for free education for all. Many other countries offer it and they have a better quality of life.  I realize that Itís not free in the sense that taxes are still paid for it, but Iíd rather pay taxes over time then be expected to pay out $100,000 over 4 years or that same amount for the rest of my life with HUGE interests on top of that.

What good is it going to do to America anyway if our population keeps growing but we have a bunch of uneducated citizens running around?  IMO the US should look outside its borders and see how other countries handle education, health care, etc and try and some how incorporate the things that work for them into the US. What we have from Kindergarten all the way up to PhDs is not working on both the education side and the cost side and it needs to be fixed. Collegeís are corporations now, not places of higher learning (and if you donít that believe me may I direct your attention to the Penn State scandal)  Its time for people to realize how important it is to educate all of our citizens, not just the ones that can afford it.

But what do I know, Iím just a dreamer   8)





So, does the earning potential from a degree increase when everyone gets one for free as well?  Educated in what?  The education still costs 100k no matter who pays for it.  Increased taxation to fully fund a resource that produces limiting results may make philanthropic sense (in the case of an educated populace) but makes little financial sense and produces unsustainable results. 


Should there be more government money to support universities?  Probably.  But back to return to the theme of EB's message, to the savy and industirous student, many govt. monies are available in the form of grants.  Should everyone have access to all monies equally?  I don't think that is realistic, but build me a reasonable case and I'll listen.

Offline UncleEbinezer

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #245 on: November 18, 2011, 04:31:54 PM »
Personally I am for free education for all. Many other countries offer it and they have a better quality of life.  I realize that Itís not free in the sense that taxes are still paid for it, but Iíd rather pay taxes over time then be expected to pay out $100,000 over 4 years or that same amount for the rest of my life with HUGE interests on top of that.

What good is it going to do to America anyway if our population keeps growing but we have a bunch of uneducated citizens running around?  IMO the US should look outside its borders and see how other countries handle education, health care, etc and try and some how incorporate the things that work for them into the US. What we have from Kindergarten all the way up to PhDs is not working on both the education side and the cost side and it needs to be fixed. Collegeís are corporations now, not places of higher learning (and if you donít that believe me may I direct your attention to the Penn State scandal)  Its time for people to realize how important it is to educate all of our citizens, not just the ones that can afford it.

But what do I know, Iím just a dreamer   8)





So, does the earning potential from a degree increase when everyone gets one for free as well?  Educated in what?  The education still costs 100k no matter who pays for it.  Increased taxation to fully fund a resource that produces limiting results may make philanthropic sense (in the case of an educated populace) but makes little financial sense and produces unsustainable results. 


Should there be more government money to support universities?  Probably.  But back to return to the theme of EB's message, to the savy and industirous student, many govt. monies are available in the form of grants.  Should everyone have access to all monies equally?  I don't think that is realistic, but build me a reasonable case and I'll listen.

nab, you make a good point, that it produces a level playing field, not just now, but forever.  A hierarchy dissipates and you're still left with some way for people to try and get ahead of another.  Hence private schools, etc.  Its a vicious cycle with no clear answer. 

Phuzzy I think you're point does make some sense, but the almighty $ is always going to be in the way.  Not just from the funding aspect of it, but eventually, people are going to want to make $1 more than the next person and hence the seperation (inequalities) begin again.
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Offline qop24

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #246 on: November 18, 2011, 04:38:01 PM »
Personally I am for free education for all. Many other countries offer it and they have a better quality of life.  I realize that Itís not free in the sense that taxes are still paid for it, but Iíd rather pay taxes over time then be expected to pay out $100,000 over 4 years or that same amount for the rest of my life with HUGE interests on top of that.

What good is it going to do to America anyway if our population keeps growing but we have a bunch of uneducated citizens running around?  IMO the US should look outside its borders and see how other countries handle education, health care, etc and try and some how incorporate the things that work for them into the US. What we have from Kindergarten all the way up to PhDs is not working on both the education side and the cost side and it needs to be fixed. Collegeís are corporations now, not places of higher learning (and if you donít that believe me may I direct your attention to the Penn State scandal)  Its time for people to realize how important it is to educate all of our citizens, not just the ones that can afford it.

But what do I know, Iím just a dreamer   8)

So, does the earning potential from a degree increase when everyone gets one for free as well?  Educated in what?  The education still costs 100k no matter who pays for it.  Increased taxation to fully fund a resource that produces limiting results may make philanthropic sense (in the case of an educated populace) but makes little financial sense and produces unsustainable results. 


I'm too lazy to look up the specifics, but another interesting/bad trend that has really come to the foreground over the past year or 2 is that people with law degrees aren't finding jobs now because there were so many of them. The great irony is that there have been many, many lawsuits filed against law schools by these students because of the false expectations that were given to them and the debt incurred because of it.
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Offline Hicks

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #247 on: November 18, 2011, 05:20:04 PM »
There are tons of college grads out there that can't find work in their field.

I'm too lazy to look up the actual stats but the number of people in their 20s living with their parents right now is higher than it has been in a long time.

So with tuition costs sky rocketing, even from when I went to school 10 years ago, and since the job market has basically sucked ever since 9/11 is it really any wonder that people are pissed off and feeling like they won't have the opportunities that their parents had?

Maybe we should just roll over and accept that people who move money around for a living are entitled to make six or even seven figures and bank executives who presided over royal fuck ups that cost tax payers billions still deserve their fat bonuses.   :roll:
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Offline phuzzyfish12

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #248 on: November 18, 2011, 05:20:45 PM »
Personally I am for free education for all. Many other countries offer it and they have a better quality of life.  I realize that Itís not free in the sense that taxes are still paid for it, but Iíd rather pay taxes over time then be expected to pay out $100,000 over 4 years or that same amount for the rest of my life with HUGE interests on top of that.

What good is it going to do to America anyway if our population keeps growing but we have a bunch of uneducated citizens running around?  IMO the US should look outside its borders and see how other countries handle education, health care, etc and try and some how incorporate the things that work for them into the US. What we have from Kindergarten all the way up to PhDs is not working on both the education side and the cost side and it needs to be fixed. Collegeís are corporations now, not places of higher learning (and if you donít that believe me may I direct your attention to the Penn State scandal)  Its time for people to realize how important it is to educate all of our citizens, not just the ones that can afford it.

But what do I know, Iím just a dreamer   8)





So, does the earning potential from a degree increase when everyone gets one for free as well?  Educated in what?  The education still costs 100k no matter who pays for it.  Increased taxation to fully fund a resource that produces limiting results may make philanthropic sense (in the case of an educated populace) but makes little financial sense and produces unsustainable results. 


Should there be more government money to support universities?  Probably.  But back to return to the theme of EB's message, to the savy and industirous student, many govt. monies are available in the form of grants.  Should everyone have access to all monies equally?  I don't think that is realistic, but build me a reasonable case and I'll listen.
Just because its available to everyone doesn't mean that everyone will take advantage the option. So there would still be people with HS Diploma, BS/BA, Master, Phd, etc.
 
I would hope since people can get a free education more people would be more inclined to pursue degrees in what they want and go further into higher education. Instead of everyone getting a JD or an MBA because those are the degrees that pay most right now and then saturating the market with these degrees.
 
If everyone gets the same playing field (free education), then I would also hope it would push people to work harder, to be at the top of the class, to pursue a Masters, a Phd to get ahead. Harder work would be rewarded by the better jobs, higher pay. It would eliminate those saying they didn't get a fair shot because they couldn't get a good education, at that point if education is free and you don't take advantage of it, then you have no one to blame but yourself for not getting ahead, as opposed to now, where finances can quickly curb someone's plan to go to college.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 05:22:31 PM by phuzzyfish12 »

Offline nab

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #249 on: November 18, 2011, 05:50:44 PM »
Personally I am for free education for all. Many other countries offer it and they have a better quality of life.  I realize that Itís not free in the sense that taxes are still paid for it, but Iíd rather pay taxes over time then be expected to pay out $100,000 over 4 years or that same amount for the rest of my life with HUGE interests on top of that.

What good is it going to do to America anyway if our population keeps growing but we have a bunch of uneducated citizens running around?  IMO the US should look outside its borders and see how other countries handle education, health care, etc and try and some how incorporate the things that work for them into the US. What we have from Kindergarten all the way up to PhDs is not working on both the education side and the cost side and it needs to be fixed. Collegeís are corporations now, not places of higher learning (and if you donít that believe me may I direct your attention to the Penn State scandal)  Its time for people to realize how important it is to educate all of our citizens, not just the ones that can afford it.

But what do I know, Iím just a dreamer   8)





So, does the earning potential from a degree increase when everyone gets one for free as well?  Educated in what?  The education still costs 100k no matter who pays for it.  Increased taxation to fully fund a resource that produces limiting results may make philanthropic sense (in the case of an educated populace) but makes little financial sense and produces unsustainable results. 


Should there be more government money to support universities?  Probably.  But back to return to the theme of EB's message, to the savy and industirous student, many govt. monies are available in the form of grants.  Should everyone have access to all monies equally?  I don't think that is realistic, but build me a reasonable case and I'll listen.
Just because its available to everyone doesn't mean that everyone will take advantage the option. So there would still be people with HS Diploma, BS/BA, Master, Phd, etc.
 
I would hope since people can get a free education more people would be more inclined to pursue degrees in what they want and go further into higher education. Instead of everyone getting a JD or an MBA because those are the degrees that pay most right now and then saturating the market with these degrees.
 
If everyone gets the same playing field (free education), then I would also hope it would push people to work harder, to be at the top of the class, to pursue a Masters, a Phd to get ahead. Harder work would be rewarded by the better jobs, higher pay. It would eliminate those saying they didn't get a fair shot because they couldn't get a good education, at that point if education is free and you don't take advantage of it, then you have no one to blame but yourself for not getting ahead, as opposed to now, where finances can quickly curb someone's plan to go to college.




Many people miss an opprotunity to invest in starting a business because of finances, leading to decreased opprotunity.  Does this mean we should level the playing feild by buying them small businesses as well?  What happens when the undergraduate feild becomes so saturated that now they equal nothing, the master's, and the PhD?  Why should I pay for someone to get a degree in "what they want" through a lifetime tax burden and not expect a return on my investment?

Then there is the question of how to pay for it......


Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #250 on: November 18, 2011, 05:54:55 PM »
Obviously college tuition is rising, even faster than health care costs. But, like health care, you can't fix the problem without addressing the root causes. And the reason tuition is rising is the same reason housing prices blew up in the 2000s or tech stock valuations went through the roof in the late 90s. There is too much money being supplied too cheaply because the federal gov't guarantees the loans.

What incentive does a university have to reign in costs if they have no threat to enrollment since people have guaranteed access to funds? If colleges had to worry about whether or not students could afford the tuition, they might have a reason to control it. But since they have an unlimited source of buyers and an equally unlimited source of funding, they can make unreasonable increases in the cost of their goods (see the housing market circa 2005).

To me, this is one of the more irresponsible ideas of OWS. To think that wiping out student debt would be good for the economy or that it would somehow be just to nullify contracts that willing participants voluntarily engaged in represents a failing in their understanding of basic economic principles. Like much of OWS, I understand the frustration, but not their solutions.

As nab points out, free college only diminishes the value of that education and is inherently unstable. It also (like a certain health care law) does little to address the root cause of why tuition increases have been so steep. If anything, the cost of college would explode even faster, making the collapse of the scheme even more inevitable.

IMO, of course.

Offline slslbs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #251 on: November 18, 2011, 11:31:54 PM »
I don't think people appreciate stuff they get for free in general.

As far as "wiping out student debt" - it depends what you mean. Right now, you can go to school on the military and pay Uncle Sam back with time. At one time, you could get the public health service to pay for med school, then work in underserved areas (usually places like Indian reservations) on a year for year basis. I don't see how making up a system like that would be bad if Uncle Sam got value back, and we could afford it.
One of my roommates had this idea that school should be free, but then you had to pay a % of your income back to the school for 10 years after graduation.
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Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #252 on: November 19, 2011, 08:21:49 PM »
I don't think people appreciate stuff they get for free in general.

QFT

As far as "wiping out student debt" - it depends what you mean. Right now, you can go to school on the military and pay Uncle Sam back with time. At one time, you could get the public health service to pay for med school, then work in underserved areas (usually places like Indian reservations) on a year for year basis. I don't see how making up a system like that would be bad if Uncle Sam got value back, and we could afford it.

In Philly (and I'm sure many other cities), they provide emergency certification and tuition support for people who agree to teach in underperforming schools (usually inter-city) while getting education degrees. And like other seemingly well-intentioned ideas, it often exacerbates the problems for these schools as they get a lot of unexperienced teachers who bolt as soon as they get their credentials/degrees.

Plus, like you said, setting it up is easy; the hard part is finding ways to make affordable and sustainable.

One of my roommates had this idea that school should be free, but then you had to pay a % of your income back to the school for 10 years after graduation.

Isn't that kinda what we have now? Where otherwise unqualified borrowers can get a dirt cheap loan with no income and no collateral? Student loans are nothing more than people borrowing money against their future earnings which, in the long run, are dramatically higher with a college education.

Offline slslbs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #253 on: November 20, 2011, 02:28:20 AM »
I don't think a student loan and a toxic mortgage are the same. The prospects of a student (up until the current time) to increase income significantly is fairly good. Where this falls apart is what if someone drops out or flunks out - then who's going to pay.

I wasn't specific in my post, though, my roommate was talking about med school, where the graduation rate approaches 100% (we had 1 guy quit out of 200) and the income prospects are pretty good.

getting back to what started the talk about college prices is the feeling that there is less upward mobility today. more evidence of that is the fact that income inequality is growing, as is poverty.
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Offline slslbs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #254 on: November 20, 2011, 07:32:11 PM »
got this email today - got a  :-)

Vote for the worst of the 1% to expose the small subset of elites who are exploiting the 99%.
http://whoarethe1percent.com/

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We've created a list of the 30 people doing the most to destroy our economy and democracy ó a list created from the 5000 suggestions that our audience left over the last two weeks at WhoAreThe1Percent.com. This is a doozy of a list, filled with the likes of Rupert Murdoch, Rob Walton, and Jamie Dimon (of JPMorgan Chase fame). We're going to make videos exposing the worst of the bunch. Which ones? That's up to you.

Vote for the worst of the 1% to expose the small subset of elites who are exploiting the 99%.

There is no shortage of bad men on our list (and yes, they are all men). We've got Hugh Grant, for instance ó not the actor, but the CEO of Monsanto, a company that produces "Frankenfood" and conquers family farms nationwide. We've got Erik Prince, the founder of the mercenary company Blackwater. And of course, we'd never leave off our friends the Koch Brothers.

Cast your vote to help America understand exactly how our democracy is being taken from us ó and who's doing the taking.

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