Author Topic: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?  (Read 31373 times)

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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2012, 01:39:57 PM »


If nutjobs had free and easy access to mental health care from an early age, they probably would be less likely to arrive at the kick-a-door-down-and-shoot-up-a-movie-theater stage.

In an ideal world, this would be the case. However, I think a lot of people that we would assume need mental health care of any sort don't see themselves as heaving a mental health issue and wouldn't pursue the care they need.

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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2012, 01:41:51 PM »
If no one carried a gun, then no one would be shot.

Is that an idealist notion? Yes.

Is it realistic? Not today. But wouldn't you like to see that world?

Of course you would.

However, we don't get to a point where no one feels they need a gun if more people decide to carry guns.

I'm doing my part.

Are you?

I have to point out that, the people who are going to be willing to lay down their guns in the name of world peace are the ones we don't need to be most concerned about. It's the bad guys, who are not going to be so willing. And, as you point out, that ship has sailed and now they have them. So I'd rather crazy people and not-crazy people have guns as opposed to just crazy people.



So now that the bucket has a few leaks we should put more holes in it?

Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2012, 01:45:38 PM »
If no one carried a gun, then no one would be shot.

Is that an idealist notion? Yes.

Is it realistic? Not today. But wouldn't you like to see that world?

Of course you would.

However, we don't get to a point where no one feels they need a gun if more people decide to carry guns.

I'm doing my part.

Are you?

I have to point out that, the people who are going to be willing to lay down their guns in the name of world peace are the ones we don't need to be most concerned about. It's the bad guys, who are not going to be so willing. And, as you point out, that ship has sailed and now they have them. So I'd rather crazy people and not-crazy people have guns as opposed to just crazy people.



So now that the bucket has a few leaks we should put more holes in it?

What I'm saying is, I don't consider myself and safe, responsible people like me to be more holes in the bucket. I'm sorry that some may disagree. I promise I'm not here to shoot any of you.
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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2012, 01:54:13 PM »
If no one carried a gun, then no one would be shot.

Is that an idealist notion? Yes.

Is it realistic? Not today. But wouldn't you like to see that world?

Of course you would.

However, we don't get to a point where no one feels they need a gun if more people decide to carry guns.

I'm doing my part.

Are you?

I have to point out that, the people who are going to be willing to lay down their guns in the name of world peace are the ones we don't need to be most concerned about. It's the bad guys, who are not going to be so willing. And, as you point out, that ship has sailed and now they have them. So I'd rather crazy people and not-crazy people have guns as opposed to just crazy people.



So now that the bucket has a few leaks we should put more holes in it?

What I'm saying is, I don't consider myself and safe, responsible people like me to be more holes in the bucket. I'm sorry that some may disagree. I promise I'm not here to shoot any of you.

When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

Not acceptable, imo.

Offline PIE-GUY

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2012, 01:56:13 PM »

The likelihood that you will need your gun in a movie theater is so infinitesimally small that I firmly believe you are more likely to have an accidental problem by carrying it than you are to save a life with it. Maybe it's a wash, but I wouldn't give the advantage to the defensive gun owner.

I disagree. I believe they are both infinitesimally small, except I have control over one and not the other. I'll put my faith in myself and not the crazy, unpredictable, violent people out there.


But my point is that even you or people like you who are very safe and sane can have accidents. Saying "I have control" does not remove the chance of an accident... that's what an accident is.

Putting something fragile on a high shelf is riskier than putting it on a low shelf, even if the people around that fragile thing are "very careful." Accidents happen. One thing is certain... If you don't have a gun with you at the movie theater, you won't have an accident involving a gun you have with you at a movie theater. Seems pretty simple.

I'm just making a rational argument that the likelihood of that gun causing an accidental injury or death is roughly the same as the likelihood of that gun preventing an injury or death. Therefore, you are carrying the gun because of how it makes you feel... you must have a small pe... wait, let's not get into personal attacks...
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Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2012, 02:01:34 PM »
When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

... and only in cases of defending an innocent person's life or physical safety. Justifiable self defense. Initiated not by me but by the bad guy.

I have to ask bluntly: Whose side are you on in a scenario like that?
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Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2012, 02:03:00 PM »

The likelihood that you will need your gun in a movie theater is so infinitesimally small that I firmly believe you are more likely to have an accidental problem by carrying it than you are to save a life with it. Maybe it's a wash, but I wouldn't give the advantage to the defensive gun owner.

I disagree. I believe they are both infinitesimally small, except I have control over one and not the other. I'll put my faith in myself and not the crazy, unpredictable, violent people out there.


But my point is that even you or people like you who are very safe and sane can have accidents. Saying "I have control" does not remove the chance of an accident... that's what an accident is.

Putting something fragile on a high shelf is riskier than putting it on a low shelf, even if the people around that fragile thing are "very careful." Accidents happen. One thing is certain... If you don't have a gun with you at the movie theater, you won't have an accident involving a gun you have with you at a movie theater. Seems pretty simple.

I'm just making a rational argument that the likelihood of that gun causing an accidental injury or death is roughly the same as the likelihood of that gun preventing an injury or death. Therefore, you are carrying the gun because of how it makes you feel... you must have a small pe... wait, let's not get into personal attacks...

I actually lost my penis in an unfortunate gun accident. Thanks for bringing that up.  :cry:
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Offline PIE-GUY

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2012, 02:04:00 PM »

The likelihood that you will need your gun in a movie theater is so infinitesimally small that I firmly believe you are more likely to have an accidental problem by carrying it than you are to save a life with it. Maybe it's a wash, but I wouldn't give the advantage to the defensive gun owner.

I disagree. I believe they are both infinitesimally small, except I have control over one and not the other. I'll put my faith in myself and not the crazy, unpredictable, violent people out there.


But my point is that even you or people like you who are very safe and sane can have accidents. Saying "I have control" does not remove the chance of an accident... that's what an accident is.

Putting something fragile on a high shelf is riskier than putting it on a low shelf, even if the people around that fragile thing are "very careful." Accidents happen. One thing is certain... If you don't have a gun with you at the movie theater, you won't have an accident involving a gun you have with you at a movie theater. Seems pretty simple.

I'm just making a rational argument that the likelihood of that gun causing an accidental injury or death is roughly the same as the likelihood of that gun preventing an injury or death. Therefore, you are carrying the gun because of how it makes you feel... you must have a small pe... wait, let's not get into personal attacks...

I actually lost my penis in an unfortunate gun accident. Thanks for bringing that up.  :cry:

 :hereitisyousentimentalbastard  Thank you for that... this thread needed a little levity!!
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Offline emay

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2012, 02:05:46 PM »
When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

... and only in cases of defending an innocent person's life or physical safety. Justifiable self defense. Initiated not by me but by the bad guy.

I have to ask bluntly: Whose side are you on in a scenario like that?

Personally, im no vigilantly. If someone was on a shooting rampage and I had a gun, I would throw it to someone that would wanna go out there and take this dude out...I would be hiding or GTFO! Im also a selfish asshole too, so I guess that explains it. 

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2012, 02:08:30 PM »
When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

... and only in cases of defending an innocent person's life or physical safety. Justifiable self defense. Initiated not by me but by the bad guy.

I have to ask bluntly: Whose side are you on in a scenario like that?

I used to have this debate all the time in college - I am morally opposed to killing another human being even in self defense. Put myself in the actual situation and my instincts for survival may overtake my moral compass... I have no way of knowing. Carrying a gun, however, means I've already made the immoral choice of sacrificing another human life in defense of my own. I won't do that.

That's how I see it.
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Offline runawayjimbo

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2012, 02:12:58 PM »
What I'm saying is, I don't consider myself and safe, responsible people like me to be more holes in the bucket. I'm sorry that some may disagree. I promise I'm not here to shoot any of you.

Well sure you say that now, but what about when I tell you that I think the 06-28-00 Gin sucks?

When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

Not acceptable, imo.

Unless he's going out with the intention of killing someone, that most certainly is not the purpose. The purpose is to protect from others who intend to kill. Owning a gun and wanting peace are not mutually exclusive. I think most gun owners buy a gun sincerely hoping there will never be a need to use it.

Offline phil

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2012, 02:14:26 PM »
Aside from self defense, the shooting sports are just plain fun. Shooting clays is a great way to spend an afternoon. Target shooting can be pretty fun as well. When you start aiming at things that have a more visceral response to being shot, you run into problems. Gun ownership for me is a recreational thing. It's a fun pastime if you're into that sort of thing. For home defense, I keep a baseball bat next to my bed. It would be much more satisfying to club an intruder over the head than to shoot him, imo.
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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2012, 02:17:58 PM »
When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

... and only in cases of defending an innocent person's life or physical safety. Justifiable self defense. Initiated not by me but by the bad guy.

I have to ask bluntly: Whose side are you on in a scenario like that?

I used to have this debate all the time in college - I am morally opposed to killing another human being even in self defense. Put myself in the actual situation and my instincts for survival may overtake my moral compass... I have no way of knowing. Carrying a gun, however, means I've already made the immoral choice of sacrificing another human life in defense of my own. I won't do that.

That's how I see it.

Well stated.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 02:19:58 PM by goodabouthood »
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Offline barnesy305

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2012, 02:19:16 PM »
While I can appreciate the open dialogue this tragedy has produced, the weapon of choice here isn't the real issue in my eyes. What if he had thrown a Molotov cocktail instead of using guns? Gas and lighters can be bought by anyone and he would have fucked up a bunch of people. Or how about a pipe bomb? That's easy as shit to make. My point is that humans have the ability to be violent as fuck no matter what the weapon and I don't see that ever going away.

Offline slslbs

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2012, 02:25:13 PM »
I don't know, but I don't think any of us are complaining about recreation, ie hunting and target shooting.

I get your point, VDB, but I would imagine it takes a lot of training to maintain ones cool under fire and make sure you shoot the right guy. For instance, what would have happened if another gun owner was there last night and there was a shoot out - a third guy with a gun arrives on the scene, sees the "defender" 1st and takes him out.  the cops come, and take that guy out. What if someone tackled the shooter, grabbed his gun, and someone else with a gun came, saw a dude with the gun and shot the wrong guy?Far fetched? I think not.
More than one boyfriend has been shot and killed visiting his girlfriend because dad thought there was a potential break in.

there was a story that came out after the Giffords shooting that a gun owner came to the scene late, saw something suspicous but because he had appropriate training he did not shoot  (unfortunately I forget the details). If he did shoot, it would have been at the wrong person.

anyway, like I said and like RJ and barnsey said, I don't think gun control laws would have prevented this. the guy is batshit crazy and we live in a violent society.
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