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Author Topic: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?  (Read 39940 times)

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Offline emay

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2012, 02:25:33 PM »
Hunter S Thompson's fun with guns

Offline emay

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2012, 02:30:10 PM »
These conversations come up every time something like this happens. The outcomes are quite similar:
A) Nothing happens
B) We say the person is crazy and then do nothing to ensure this doesn't happen again
C) Blame the movies, music, and other environmental elements that "made this person act in this way"
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 02:33:00 PM by emayPhishyMD »

Offline barnesy305

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2012, 02:40:23 PM »
These conversations come up every time something like this happens. The outcomes are quite similar:
A) Nothing happens
B) We say the person is crazy and then do nothing to ensure this doesn't happen again
C) Blame the movies, music, and other environmental elements that "made this person act in this way"

I don't really think anything can be done honestly.

Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2012, 02:41:25 PM »
These conversations come up every time something like this happens. The outcomes are quite similar:
A) Nothing happens
B) We say the person is crazy and then do nothing to ensure this doesn't happen again
C) Blame the movies, music, and other environmental elements that "made this person act in this way"

I don't really think anything can be done honestly.

More people can carry guns to prevent this from happening.
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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2012, 03:00:37 PM »
When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

Not acceptable, imo.

Unless he's going out with the intention of killing someone, that most certainly is not the purpose. The purpose is to protect from others who intend to kill. Owning a gun and wanting peace are not mutually exclusive. I think most gun owners buy a gun sincerely hoping there will never be a need to use it.

I think PG answers your point as well as I could...

When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

... and only in cases of defending an innocent person's life or physical safety. Justifiable self defense. Initiated not by me but by the bad guy.

I have to ask bluntly: Whose side are you on in a scenario like that?

I used to have this debate all the time in college - I am morally opposed to killing another human being even in self defense. Put myself in the actual situation and my instincts for survival may overtake my moral compass... I have no way of knowing. Carrying a gun, however, means I've already made the immoral choice of sacrificing another human life in defense of my own. I won't do that.

That's how I see it.

Well stated.

Agreed.

You're not carrying a concealed weapon with the intent to intimidate. You're carrying the concealed weapon with the intent of pulling it out and shooting someone when, in your opinion, they need to be shot, and killed. After all, you aren't shooting to maim.

Also, the standard idea is two shots to center mass, one to the head.


Offline PIE-GUY

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2012, 03:09:49 PM »
What I'm saying is, I don't consider myself and safe, responsible people like me to be more holes in the bucket. I'm sorry that some may disagree. I promise I'm not here to shoot any of you.

Well sure you say that now, but what about when I tell you that I think the 06-28-00 Gin sucks?

When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

Not acceptable, imo.

Unless he's going out with the intention of killing someone, that most certainly is not the purpose. The purpose is to protect from others who intend to kill. Owning a gun and wanting peace are not mutually exclusive. I think most gun owners buy a gun sincerely hoping there will never be a need to use it.

Again, this argument is emotional not rational. You carry the gun because of how it makes you feel. The rational argument, as laid forth by one of the greatest rational minds of any era, goes like this:

 “You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.”

It really is that simple.
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Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2012, 03:10:24 PM »
Rather than say anything offensive, I'll just state that it's a sad commentary on the state of our society when people feel the need to carry a gun to the movie theater in order to feel safe.
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Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2012, 03:10:42 PM »
What I'm saying is, I don't consider myself and safe, responsible people like me to be more holes in the bucket. I'm sorry that some may disagree. I promise I'm not here to shoot any of you.

Well sure you say that now, but what about when I tell you that I think the 06-28-00 Gin sucks?

I was hoping to find a screen grab of when Joe Pesci pulls out his gun after Ray Liotta tells him "You're a real funny guy!"

When you strap on that gun, it is for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill a human being.

Not acceptable, imo.

Unless he's going out with the intention of killing someone, that most certainly is not the purpose. The purpose is to protect from others who intend to kill. Owning a gun and wanting peace are not mutually exclusive. I think most gun owners buy a gun sincerely hoping there will never be a need to use it.

Took the words outta my mouth.

I used to have this debate all the time in college - I am morally opposed to killing another human being even in self defense. Put myself in the actual situation and my instincts for survival may overtake my moral compass... I have no way of knowing. Carrying a gun, however, means I've already made the immoral choice of sacrificing another human life in defense of my own. I won't do that.

That's how I see it.

Well stated.


I can appreciate that you both (and others) have this position, and I'm not trying to talk anyone out of that. But me personally, I'm not willing to lay down my own life to preserve the bad guy's. If someone has made the decision to take an innocent life, they have forfeited any right to object that their own be taken in order to save the other. And luckily, the laws agree with me on that and would not punish me if I acted in justifiable self-defense.

I get your point, VDB, but I would imagine it takes a lot of training to maintain ones cool under fire and make sure you shoot the right guy. For instance, what would have happened if another gun owner was there last night and there was a shoot out - a third guy with a gun arrives on the scene, sees the "defender" 1st and takes him out.  the cops come, and take that guy out. What if someone tackled the shooter, grabbed his gun, and someone else with a gun came, saw a dude with the gun and shot the wrong guy?Far fetched? I think not.

You're right, only people who've been in shootouts (myself not included) know how they'd react in one. For my part, I've had more training than any of y'all realize, since you don't know what I used to do for a living. I believe I'm better-equipped than the average gun owner to handle a bad situation, which I hope I never have to, anyway.

And as to the other scenarios you describe -- yeah, a fucked-up situation could yield additional fucked-up situations. No doubt about that. But also, a gun owner could make a fucked-up situation a little less fucked up. That happens too.

Remember the old lady in Atlanta who got killed by the cops after she fired on them after they kicked in her door, trying to serve a warrant at the wrong address? That kind of shit happens, too. Neither party was acting maliciously (assuming the cops on the scene weren't the ones responsible for the address fuck-up), and both believed they were doing what they needed to do. (And the city ended up settling with the lady's family for millions.)
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Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2012, 03:19:49 PM »
Rather than say anything offensive, I'll just state that it's a sad commentary on the state of our society when people feel the need to carry a gun to the movie theater in order to feel safe.

I met some English people in South Africa, and we got to talking about guns in America. The notion of Americans owning and carrying guns just blew their minds. You don't really have guns in England (except some criminals, naturally), or enough gun violence for average people to feel compelled to own them, I guess. Even typical policemen don't carry guns there, which itself tells you just how low the incidence of gun ownership and violence is. Yet, these English folks were relating a recent story of some lunatic showing up somewhere and shooting up the joint, and even though there were cops on the scene, they were powerless to stop it. They had to call in the special gun-toting squad. In the meantime, more people died.

So yes, I agree it is a commentary on the state of society.
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Offline PIE-GUY

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2012, 03:21:47 PM »
BTW, the NYTimes is now reporting that this idiot in Colorado was wearing full body armor... your little handgun would barely have slowed him down.

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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2012, 03:28:41 PM »
BTW, the NYTimes is now reporting that this idiot in Colorado was wearing full body armor... your little handgun would barely have slowed him down.

Probably would've given him something specific to aim at... for a second.

Offline antelope19

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2012, 03:29:16 PM »
Rather than say anything offensive, I'll just state that it's a sad commentary on the state of our society when people feel the need to carry a gun to the movie theater in order to feel safe.

I met some English people in South Africa, and we got to talking about guns in America. The notion of Americans owning and carrying guns just blew their minds. You don't really have guns in England (except some criminals, naturally), or enough gun violence for average people to feel compelled to own them, I guess. Even typical policemen don't carry guns there, which itself tells you just how low the incidence of gun ownership and violence is. Yet, these English folks were relating a recent story of some lunatic showing up somewhere and shooting up the joint, and even though there were cops on the scene, they were powerless to stop it. They had to call in the special gun-toting squad. In the meantime, more people died.

So yes, I agree it is a commentary on the state of society.

Conversely, when I was in Rio last summer, there was a cop on every corner with an automatic weapon, finger on the trigger and ready for anything.  That said, crime is a MAJOR problem in that city.  It has been said that the drug dealers run that place.  Our travel agent said the government is paying them off to disappear when world cup comes in 2014.  This was confirmed by the cab driver we had down there. 
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Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2012, 03:30:07 PM »
Rather than say anything offensive, I'll just state that it's a sad commentary on the state of our society when people feel the need to carry a gun to the movie theater in order to feel safe.

I met some English people in South Africa, and we got to talking about guns in America. The notion of Americans owning and carrying guns just blew their minds. You don't really have guns in England (except some criminals, naturally), or enough gun violence for average people to feel compelled to own them, I guess. Even typical policemen don't carry guns there, which itself tells you just how low the incidence of gun ownership and violence is. Yet, these English folks were relating a recent story of some lunatic showing up somewhere and shooting up the joint, and even though there were cops on the scene, they were powerless to stop it. They had to call in the special gun-toting squad. In the meantime, more people died.

So yes, I agree it is a commentary on the state of society.

So did that change the English folks mind and they go buy guns after that incident? Or did the cops start carrying guns after that? I guess I'm not understanding the point of your story.
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Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2012, 03:36:00 PM »
Rather than say anything offensive, I'll just state that it's a sad commentary on the state of our society when people feel the need to carry a gun to the movie theater in order to feel safe.

I met some English people in South Africa, and we got to talking about guns in America. The notion of Americans owning and carrying guns just blew their minds. You don't really have guns in England (except some criminals, naturally), or enough gun violence for average people to feel compelled to own them, I guess. Even typical policemen don't carry guns there, which itself tells you just how low the incidence of gun ownership and violence is. Yet, these English folks were relating a recent story of some lunatic showing up somewhere and shooting up the joint, and even though there were cops on the scene, they were powerless to stop it. They had to call in the special gun-toting squad. In the meantime, more people died.

So yes, I agree it is a commentary on the state of society.

So did that change the English folks mind and they go buy guns after that incident? Or did the cops start carrying guns after that? I guess I'm not understanding the point of your story.

I was agreeing with you that individuals making the decision to arm themselves for protection is a commentary on their society (in a addition to, apparently, my johnson).

The bit about the massacre there was a side anecdote about how unfortunate it was, in that case, that the English standard of not arming their police officers carried its own unintended consequence.
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Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2012, 03:50:26 PM »
Rather than say anything offensive, I'll just state that it's a sad commentary on the state of our society when people feel the need to carry a gun to the movie theater in order to feel safe.

I met some English people in South Africa, and we got to talking about guns in America. The notion of Americans owning and carrying guns just blew their minds. You don't really have guns in England (except some criminals, naturally), or enough gun violence for average people to feel compelled to own them, I guess. Even typical policemen don't carry guns there, which itself tells you just how low the incidence of gun ownership and violence is. Yet, these English folks were relating a recent story of some lunatic showing up somewhere and shooting up the joint, and even though there were cops on the scene, they were powerless to stop it. They had to call in the special gun-toting squad. In the meantime, more people died.

So yes, I agree it is a commentary on the state of society.

So did that change the English folks mind and they go buy guns after that incident? Or did the cops start carrying guns after that? I guess I'm not understanding the point of your story.

I was agreeing with you that individuals making the decision to arm themselves for protection is a commentary on their society (in a addition to, apparently, my johnson).

The bit about the massacre there was a side anecdote about how unfortunate it was, in that case, that the English standard of not arming their police officers carried its own unintended consequence.

Right. So that's what I'm asking. In their telling you of that incident, what was their reaction? In what way did it change their behavior? Did they feel the need to arm themselves because of it? Or did state they wished the police had been carrying weapons? Or wished they would start carrying weapons now? Surely, you must have been curious into their reaction to such an incident.
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