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Author Topic: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?  (Read 39951 times)

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Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2012, 03:59:53 PM »
Rather than say anything offensive, I'll just state that it's a sad commentary on the state of our society when people feel the need to carry a gun to the movie theater in order to feel safe.

I met some English people in South Africa, and we got to talking about guns in America. The notion of Americans owning and carrying guns just blew their minds. You don't really have guns in England (except some criminals, naturally), or enough gun violence for average people to feel compelled to own them, I guess. Even typical policemen don't carry guns there, which itself tells you just how low the incidence of gun ownership and violence is. Yet, these English folks were relating a recent story of some lunatic showing up somewhere and shooting up the joint, and even though there were cops on the scene, they were powerless to stop it. They had to call in the special gun-toting squad. In the meantime, more people died.

So yes, I agree it is a commentary on the state of society.

So did that change the English folks mind and they go buy guns after that incident? Or did the cops start carrying guns after that? I guess I'm not understanding the point of your story.

I was agreeing with you that individuals making the decision to arm themselves for protection is a commentary on their society (in a addition to, apparently, my johnson).

The bit about the massacre there was a side anecdote about how unfortunate it was, in that case, that the English standard of not arming their police officers carried its own unintended consequence.

Right. So that's what I'm asking. In their telling you of that incident, what was their reaction? In what way did it change their behavior? Did they feel the need to arm themselves because of it? Or did state they wished the police had been carrying weapons? Or wished they would start carrying weapons now? Surely, you must have been curious into their reaction to such an incident.

There was a lot of drinking taking place during this conversation... but I remember them agreeing that it was sad and unfortunate that the cops on the scene had to wait 15 minutes for armed backup to arrive.

The wife was adamantly not interested in owning a gun, but I think the husband was mildly more open to it.

Our South African ranger, on the other hand, was keenly interested in getting himself a handgun. He relayed that most of the gun owners in South Africa (from his perspective anyway) consisted of thugs and ne'er-do-wells. (According to that list I linked to earlier, South Africa apparently has the most gun deaths per capita in the world, over seven times the U.S. rate.)
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Offline aphineday

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2012, 04:44:26 PM »
I'm going to make a very short statement here, and it's one that illustrates my gun views perfectly:
"You don't need a fucking gun".
Period.
I don't care about the Constitution, I don't care about self defense, I don't care about hunting, and I don't care about sport shooting; I care about human life.

You don't need a fucking gun.
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Offline mbw

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2012, 04:45:15 PM »
guns, lol.

strapping up before going to the movies, LOL.

Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2012, 05:04:35 PM »
I'm going to make a very short statement here, and it's one that illustrates my gun views perfectly:
"You don't need a fucking gun".
Period.
I don't care about the Constitution, I don't care about self defense, I don't care about hunting, and I don't care about sport shooting; I care about human life.

You don't need a fucking gun.

It's amazing to me the degree to which responsible, law-abiding gun owners are made to be the villains here. Do you understand that carrying a firearm for self-defense is precisely about protecting human life -- yours, your family's, innocent people around you -- from dangerous people who don't care about human life?

Everyone is free to make their own decisions about firearms and owning and carrying them, and I've been very particular about respecting those opposing viewpoints here.

I'm just alarmed at the extent to which it appears some people equate the peaceful carrying of a firearm for protection with the kind of violence in society that said carrying is in response to. I just don't get it guys, I'm sorry.
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Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2012, 05:32:22 PM »
I'm going to make a very short statement here, and it's one that illustrates my gun views perfectly:
"You don't need a fucking gun".
Period.
I don't care about the Constitution, I don't care about self defense, I don't care about hunting, and I don't care about sport shooting; I care about human life.

You don't need a fucking gun.

It's amazing to me the degree to which responsible, law-abiding gun owners are made to be the villains here. Do you understand that carrying a firearm for self-defense is precisely about protecting human life -- yours, your family's, innocent people around you -- from dangerous people who don't care about human life?

Everyone is free to make their own decisions about firearms and owning and carrying them, and I've been very particular about respecting those opposing viewpoints here.

I'm just alarmed at the extent to which it appears some people equate the peaceful carrying of a firearm for protection with the kind of violence in society that said carrying is in response to. I just don't get it guys, I'm sorry.

Of course you don't.


You do realize though that carrying a gun into a movie theater makes you, in some folks eyes, "the crazy, unpredictable, and violent people out there", right?

They can think that, if they want. I know better.
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Offline aphineday

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2012, 05:40:21 PM »
I'm going to make a very short statement here, and it's one that illustrates my gun views perfectly:
"You don't need a fucking gun".
Period.
I don't care about the Constitution, I don't care about self defense, I don't care about hunting, and I don't care about sport shooting; I care about human life.

You don't need a fucking gun.

It's amazing to me the degree to which responsible, law-abiding gun owners are made to be the villains here. Do you understand that carrying a firearm for self-defense is precisely about protecting human life -- yours, your family's, innocent people around you -- from dangerous people who don't care about human life?

Everyone is free to make their own decisions about firearms and owning and carrying them, and I've been very particular about respecting those opposing viewpoints here.

I'm just alarmed at the extent to which it appears some people equate the peaceful carrying of a firearm for protection with the kind of violence in society that said carrying is in response to. I just don't get it guys, I'm sorry.
Carrying a firearm is not peaceful.
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Offline sls.stormyrider

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2012, 05:43:01 PM »
to me it's all about where you draw the line. The law in many states that allow you to respond to any threat with deadly force is just plain fucking ridiculous. Bar fights or other situations that would have been merely fistfights at the worst have turned into shoot outs.
VDB you may have been very well trained, my guess is that most gun owners are not; nor have they served time in the military or in law enforcement.

I know people have died in bar fights without guns involved. But having a gun in those kinds of situations just makes it more likely - ask Trayvon Martin.

 
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Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2012, 05:46:05 PM »
^^^ It's true. It doesn't really fall into my idea of non-violence.
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Offline kellerb

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2012, 06:00:33 PM »
http://www.theonion.com/articles/sadly-nation-knows-exactly-how-colorado-shootings,28857/

Quote
...According to the nation's citizenry, calls for a mature, thoughtful debate about the role of guns in American society started right on time, and should persist throughout the next week or so. However, the populace noted, the debate will soon spiral out of control and ultimately lead to nothing of any substance, a fact Americans everywhere acknowledged they felt "absolutely horrible" to be aware of...

Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2012, 06:51:30 PM »
sls, that's why it's illegal in just about every state to carry a gun into a bar, permit or no. So, I hope I'm not being asked to defend the idea of shooting someone over a fistfight, because I won't. Even though, as you note, people can and do die from no more than a punch to the head.

APD & GAH, I'm sorry you see my choosing to exercise my legal right to defend myself and my wife as being on par with the violent, degenerate tendencies of those who attack innocent people out in public. I'm sure if you knew me in real life you'd recognize the sliver of daylight that separates me from those folks.

Keller, we've actually accomplished a lot in this thread. We've established that I'm a menace to society and all good citizens should arm themselves to protect against my morally bankrupt, bloodthirsty ways.
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Offline aphineday

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2012, 07:01:52 PM »
sls, that's why it's illegal in just about every state to carry a gun into a bar, permit or no. So, I hope I'm not being asked to defend the idea of shooting someone over a fistfight, because I won't. Even though, as you note, people can and do die from no more than a punch to the head.

APD & GAH, I'm sorry you see my choosing to exercise my legal right to defend myself and my wife as being on par with the violent, degenerate tendencies of those who attack innocent people out in public. I'm sure if you knew me in real life you'd recognize the sliver of daylight that separates me from those folks.

Keller, we've actually accomplished a lot in this thread. We've established that I'm a menace to society and all good citizens should arm themselves to protect against my morally bankrupt, bloodthirsty ways.
Whoa man, I never threw you in that category. I just don't believe guns have a place unless you're law enforcement (and I'd even debate the validity of that).
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Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2012, 07:42:21 PM »
sls, that's why it's illegal in just about every state to carry a gun into a bar, permit or no. So, I hope I'm not being asked to defend the idea of shooting someone over a fistfight, because I won't. Even though, as you note, people can and do die from no more than a punch to the head.

APD & GAH, I'm sorry you see my choosing to exercise my legal right to defend myself and my wife as being on par with the violent, degenerate tendencies of those who attack innocent people out in public. I'm sure if you knew me in real life you'd recognize the sliver of daylight that separates me from those folks.

Keller, we've actually accomplished a lot in this thread. We've established that I'm a menace to society and all good citizens should arm themselves to protect against my morally bankrupt, bloodthirsty ways.

So you admit it. Finally. Ok, back to your regularly scheduled pauging everybody.

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Offline sls.stormyrider

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2012, 07:44:07 PM »
sls, that's why it's illegal in just about every state to carry a gun into a bar, permit or no. So, I hope I'm not being asked to defend the idea of shooting someone over a fistfight, because I won't. Even though, as you note, people can and do die from no more than a punch to the head.

APD & GAH, I'm sorry you see my choosing to exercise my legal right to defend myself and my wife as being on par with the violent, degenerate tendencies of those who attack innocent people out in public. I'm sure if you knew me in real life you'd recognize the sliver of daylight that separates me from those folks.

Keller, we've actually accomplished a lot in this thread. We've established that I'm a menace to society and all good citizens should arm themselves to protect against my morally bankrupt, bloodthirsty ways.
no - I realize you're not gonna blow someone away because he pushed you. what I'm saying is that my belief (and I may be wrong) is most people who carry aren't always as responsible as you, people can lose their temper and if they have a gun on them ...
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Offline ytowndan

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2012, 08:31:10 PM »
I live in a small, yet incredibly violent, city.  We're consistently on the top of the "most violent cities per capita" lists, and our murder rate per capita is always in the top 3 nationwide.  Armed robberies happen more often than you can count.  And if there's one thing I've learned about this topic from living in a place like this, it's that carrying a gun is only going to get you killed.  If you're sitting at a red light and some thug comes up to the window and sticks a gun in your face, give him what he wants.  If you go for your gun, odds are your day is gonna end with a sopranos-style cut to black.  If you just cooperate, odds are your day will end peacefully -- albeit, without your wallet or car. 

Random acts of horrendous violence like what happened in CO are so incredibly rare.  The overwhelming, vast majority of the time, when you're encountered by a gunman, all they want is your stuff.  Bringing another gun into that situation is just going to turn it into a "who can shoot first" contest that wasn't needed in the first place.

I have no problems with keeping a gun in your own home for peace of mind (although, I disagree if there's kids in the home).  And I have no problem with target shooting or hunting.  I own two guns, personally, and I use them for target shooting (it's the one "sport" that I'm good at  :hereitisyousentimentalbastard ).  But, carrying one is only going to fuel the exact problem I want to avoid in the first place. 
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Offline nab

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2012, 08:54:54 PM »
I'm going to make a very short statement here, and it's one that illustrates my gun views perfectly:
"You don't need a fucking gun".
Period.
I don't care about the Constitution, I don't care about self defense, I don't care about hunting, and I don't care about sport shooting; I care about human life.

You don't need a fucking gun.


Curious to see how this fits my situation:


I own three guns.  None of them are really any good for self defense:  I keep the bullets, bolts/chambers, and the guns all in different areas of the house; the most important part (the bullets and the bolts/chambers) locked up.  They are for hunting and the occasional shooting sport.  The most powerful is a 30-06 cal bolt action, rifle, not exactly a fast or dexterous choice for self defense.  The only handgun I own is a .22 cal.  I've never carried it in public, and have no desire to do so.  I don't feel myself trained well enough to wield it in a tense situation; and lets face it- it's a .22.   


I have contemplated buying a more powerful handgun, one that has the stopping power to down a bear.  You don't spend the amount of time I do walking around alone in the woods of Montana and Idaho without having the thought cross your mind.  I've also spent a lot of time weighing the pros and cons of wielding a gun in the woods.  That is one of the reasons that my first line of defense in case of bear attack is pepper spray and lots of noise to let them know I'm coming.  But there are other threats too; wolves, mountain lions, moose.  The pepper spray would probably work with any of those animals as well, but it's hard to tell. 

My main concern is having the gun available as a back up.  Like I said, the pepper spray is the first line of defense; it has been shown to be pretty effective in situations where a single bear is acting aggressively in a defensive manner.  But what about situations where the bear may be compromised (such as a sick bear that is not thinking right), or situations where the use of pepper spray is compromised (the bear is upwind from you in a strong wind, you forgot to check and see if the nozzle is clogged, the spray doesn't work right [these things go for $40 a pop and only provide 7-10 seconds of spray, not something most people can afford to test all the time]), or situations where there are multiple aggressive bears (as happens near the wild-urban interface where bears have become habituated to people and act unnaturally, or a sow with yearling cubs)?  What about other animals, such as wolves that do hunt in packs?  Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but long stretches of time alone walking in unfamiliar wild places gives you a lot of time to think out scenarios. 

So, long story short, guns and self defense aren't always about people. 


In case you think I'm blowing smoke up your asses, here are two pictures of fresh tracks I have encountered on survey.  The first is a set of mountain lion tracks in my survey unit I encountered in 2010.  The second is a set of bear tracks I encountered at the end of last month.  Both of these tracks were fresh enough to tell me that the animal was most likely still in the immediate area when I encountered them.