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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #330 on: December 19, 2012, 09:31:24 AM »
Fucking people.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

Shits fucked up but... Noticed that nobody is dead?

That's not really the point as far as I'm concerned.

I thing that it is a point worth noting.
Gun control kept him from toting in a semi-automatic rifle...

Beyond that, the common thread here is that mental illness, its stigma and inadequate treatment are the overriding culprits.

Are we really prepared to debate the policies of the two gov'ts in the USA and China respectively???  Sure, in China they have more stringent gun control...  They also have all kinds of other stringent rules pertianing to almost every aspect of life.  Are we ready to go to that extreme to make sure 20+ children get stabbed instead of shot??? 

Terry

Nobody said that, the point was just being made that gun control does seemingly work.
You can have gun control without Communism.

Exactly.
Leave the straw men on the fields.

So we're not prepared...  Fair enough...

Terry
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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #331 on: December 19, 2012, 09:33:56 AM »
My point with that post is that humanity has lost it's humanity. Botton line. Carry on.

The fact that you've noticed suggests that it's not entirely lost.

Agreed, and the fact that so many people view this whole thing as horrific speaks to our Humanity...

Terry
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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #332 on: December 19, 2012, 09:41:19 AM »


With all due respect, the USA has more people in prison than China. Not more per capita...straight up more people...and half of the us prison population is in for drug offenses... Essentially thought crimes.

I hate it when Americans get preachy about China and their lack of freedom. It's fucking bullshit. Our two party system is nominally better than their one party system. Our freedom of speech is a beautiful thing. At the same time, Williamson County, Texas will put you in prison for 6 months and fuck up your ability to have a career in many many fields for a single joint.

1.  China execute thousands of people a year for crimes similar to that which will get you 6mo. in Texas.  They have fewer people in jail b/c they just shoot all their criminals.

2.  Drug Prohibition is a different topic all together and the policies of such should have its own debate in a separate topic...  At which point I'll probably agree with much of what you have to say...

Terry
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Offline whatthecello42

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #333 on: December 19, 2012, 09:44:35 AM »
You can eliminate all civilian possession of guns, or mandate that all qualified individuals carry a gun. Either extreme could potentially be effective, and neither extreme could ever be implemented in a 100% absolute fashion. For some people, having a gun gives them peace of mind because supposedly it will allow them to have control over a situation and a way to defend themselves. For other people, peace of mind can be increased by knowing that the chance of being killed by a gun is already relatively small (less than the chance of getting killed by a vehicle). And following that line of thinking, if we regulate the hell out of guns and reduce the hell out of the number of guns owned by civilians, the corresponding chance of getting killed by a gun will be significantly reduced. Therefore, more guns or less guns can increase a person’s peace of mind depending on who you are.  Personally, I'm in the less guns camp.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 09:55:35 AM by whatthecello42 »

Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #334 on: December 19, 2012, 10:01:24 AM »
if we regulate the hell out of guns and reduce the hell out of the number of guns owned by civilians

This is exactly what we do now.  We do regulate the hell out of guns.  And there is nothing really encouraging gun-ownership anymore, at least via the State.  If anything encouragement comes from peers and culture... 


Personally, I'm in the less guns camp.

I am too, but how do you get the genie back in the bottle. 

Terry
Oh! That! No, no, no, you're not ready to step into The Court of the Crimson King. At this stage in your training an album like that could turn you into an evil scientist.

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Offline whatthecello42

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #335 on: December 19, 2012, 10:13:02 AM »
if we regulate the hell out of guns and reduce the hell out of the number of guns owned by civilians

This is exactly what we do now.  We do regulate the hell out of guns.  And there is nothing really encouraging gun-ownership anymore, at least via the State.  If anything encouragement comes from peers and culture... 


Personally, I'm in the less guns camp.

I am too, but how do you get the genie back in the bottle. 

Terry

I say do here what they did in Australia:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

Quote
After a 1996 Mass Shooting, Australia Enacted Strict Gun Laws. It Hasn't Had a Similar Massacre Since.  At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.

Obviously, it's a very different country.  But it's an example.

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #336 on: December 19, 2012, 10:20:42 AM »


With all due respect, the USA has more people in prison than China. Not more per capita...straight up more people...and half of the us prison population is in for drug offenses... Essentially thought crimes.

I hate it when Americans get preachy about China and their lack of freedom. It's fucking bullshit. Our two party system is nominally better than their one party system. Our freedom of speech is a beautiful thing. At the same time, Williamson County, Texas will put you in prison for 6 months and fuck up your ability to have a career in many many fields for a single joint.

1.  China execute thousands of people a year for crimes similar to that which will get you 6mo. in Texas.  They have fewer people in jail b/c they just shoot all their criminals.

2.  Drug Prohibition is a different topic all together and the policies of such should have its own debate in a separate topic...  At which point I'll probably agree with much of what you have to say...

Terry

China executes 5,000-10,000 people per year - yes that's a big number and I'm not defending it. The vast majority of those are violent offenders. It's still about 1 in a million people getting executed.

I'm not saying China has it's hands clean. I'm just saying people talk about China like it's this land of no freedom whatsoever. There has never been a time in China's thousands of years of history where the people had greater freedom than now. That's the truth. A billion and half people live with great security that they can eat and drink and fall in love and raise families.

They have a single political party. We have two very similar political parties. Our perceived notion of self-government based on the fact that we get to vote is not that much better than the communist party of China. Our political leaders take their cues from the corporations who pay their way into office, not from our votes. I bring up the drug issue because we have over a million people in prison for what I see as essentially a thought crime. But we are only a generation or two removed from McCarthyism, Jim Crow, etc. and only a few more generations removed from the genocide of Native Americans and slavery.

The People Republic of China was founded in 1949. Since 1980 they have made HUGE changes in how they govern and the freedom they allow their people to have.


Are we really prepared to debate the policies of the two gov'ts in the USA and China respectively???


I guess my answer is "yes."
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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #337 on: December 19, 2012, 10:39:10 AM »


With all due respect, the USA has more people in prison than China. Not more per capita...straight up more people...and half of the us prison population is in for drug offenses... Essentially thought crimes.

I hate it when Americans get preachy about China and their lack of freedom. It's fucking bullshit. Our two party system is nominally better than their one party system. Our freedom of speech is a beautiful thing. At the same time, Williamson County, Texas will put you in prison for 6 months and fuck up your ability to have a career in many many fields for a single joint.

1.  China execute thousands of people a year for crimes similar to that which will get you 6mo. in Texas.  They have fewer people in jail b/c they just shoot all their criminals.

2.  Drug Prohibition is a different topic all together and the policies of such should have its own debate in a separate topic...  At which point I'll probably agree with much of what you have to say...

Terry

China executes 5,000-10,000 people per year - yes that's a big number and I'm not defending it. The vast majority of those are violent offenders. It's still about 1 in a million people getting executed.

I'm not saying China has it's hands clean. I'm just saying people talk about China like it's this land of no freedom whatsoever. There has never been a time in China's thousands of years of history where the people had greater freedom than now. That's the truth. A billion and half people live with great security that they can eat and drink and fall in love and raise families.

They have a single political party. We have two very similar political parties. Our perceived notion of self-government based on the fact that we get to vote is not that much better than the communist party of China. Our political leaders take their cues from the corporations who pay their way into office, not from our votes. I bring up the drug issue because we have over a million people in prison for what I see as essentially a thought crime. But we are only a generation or two removed from McCarthyism, Jim Crow, etc. and only a few more generations removed from the genocide of Native Americans and slavery.

The People Republic of China was founded in 1949. Since 1980 they have made HUGE changes in how they govern and the freedom they allow their people to have.


Are we really prepared to debate the policies of the two gov'ts in the USA and China respectively???


I guess my answer is "yes."

So you're essentially saying we need further restrict our freedom and then we will have the freedom now enjoyed by the Chinese???  That's great logic...

I'm stunned that people are so willing to trade their Rights for Security when they get scared about something.  So much so that we are willing to look at China as a model?

I'm willing to concede that gun control is effective and essential.  I'm not pro-gun by any means.  But I think there are better examples out there - pick the UK or Japan, but not China...

Terry

 

Oh! That! No, no, no, you're not ready to step into The Court of the Crimson King. At this stage in your training an album like that could turn you into an evil scientist.

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #338 on: December 19, 2012, 10:43:14 AM »

I say do here what they did in Australia:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

Quote
After a 1996 Mass Shooting, Australia Enacted Strict Gun Laws. It Hasn't Had a Similar Massacre Since.  At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.

Obviously, it's a very different country.  But it's an example.

Its a great example indeed!  I'll just note that the US already has similar laws in the books as far as sale and registration.  The only difference is that we allow for weapons to be bought for "self-defense".

Terry
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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #339 on: December 19, 2012, 10:44:59 AM »


With all due respect, the USA has more people in prison than China. Not more per capita...straight up more people...and half of the us prison population is in for drug offenses... Essentially thought crimes.

I hate it when Americans get preachy about China and their lack of freedom. It's fucking bullshit. Our two party system is nominally better than their one party system. Our freedom of speech is a beautiful thing. At the same time, Williamson County, Texas will put you in prison for 6 months and fuck up your ability to have a career in many many fields for a single joint.

1.  China execute thousands of people a year for crimes similar to that which will get you 6mo. in Texas.  They have fewer people in jail b/c they just shoot all their criminals.

2.  Drug Prohibition is a different topic all together and the policies of such should have its own debate in a separate topic...  At which point I'll probably agree with much of what you have to say...

Terry

China executes 5,000-10,000 people per year - yes that's a big number and I'm not defending it. The vast majority of those are violent offenders. It's still about 1 in a million people getting executed.

I'm not saying China has it's hands clean. I'm just saying people talk about China like it's this land of no freedom whatsoever. There has never been a time in China's thousands of years of history where the people had greater freedom than now. That's the truth. A billion and half people live with great security that they can eat and drink and fall in love and raise families.

They have a single political party. We have two very similar political parties. Our perceived notion of self-government based on the fact that we get to vote is not that much better than the communist party of China. Our political leaders take their cues from the corporations who pay their way into office, not from our votes. I bring up the drug issue because we have over a million people in prison for what I see as essentially a thought crime. But we are only a generation or two removed from McCarthyism, Jim Crow, etc. and only a few more generations removed from the genocide of Native Americans and slavery.

The People Republic of China was founded in 1949. Since 1980 they have made HUGE changes in how they govern and the freedom they allow their people to have.


Are we really prepared to debate the policies of the two gov'ts in the USA and China respectively???


I guess my answer is "yes."

So you're essentially saying we need further restrict our freedom and then we will have the freedom now enjoyed by the Chinese???  That's great logic...

I'm stunned that people are so willing to trade their Rights for Security when they get scared about something.  So much so that we are willing to look at China as a model?

I'm willing to concede that gun control is effective and essential.  I'm not pro-gun by any means.  But I think there are better examples out there - pick the UK or Japan, but not China...

Terry

I hear ya. And I'm not really willing to trade my right to free speech for anything at all... I don't think I have a right to own a gun. I think that's a privilege (2nd amendment be damned). Also, the only reason China came up is because they had a person go crazy at a school in a very similar fashion as we did... but that person had no access to guns so he only injured 20 people.

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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #340 on: December 19, 2012, 10:57:51 AM »

I hear ya. And I'm not really willing to trade my right to free speech for anything at all... I don't think I have a right to own a gun. I think that's a privilege (2nd amendment be damned). Also, the only reason China came up is because they had a person go crazy at a school in a very similar fashion as we did... but that person had no access to guns so he only injured 20 people.

And going back and re-reading the comments above, I can see that no one is really arguing that we need to emulate China...  I just don't think that China is a good example of how gun-control should work.  If you want to talk about a forced (by arms nonetheless) gov't ban of civilian weaponry, then they are perhaps a good example.

IMO, the 2nd is less about the right to own a gun, but more about the right to be able to defend yourself, even from our own gov't.  That is why I cant support a Chinese type model.   The Chinese Gov't couldn't care less about human rights, they banned guns because having armed civilians threatens their hold on power. 

Terry
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 11:01:15 AM by twatts likes ghoti »
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Offline VDB

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #341 on: December 19, 2012, 11:55:30 AM »
This may just be how the media are portraying things (and by "media" I mean NPR, since that's basically all I have time to consume these days), but it could be that, in the wake of this latest rampage, some people are starting to come around on the possibility of stricter gun control. Maybe it was the particular horror of seeing children killed, or maybe it's a cumulative effect working, I don't know. This could just be hollow talk out of deference to the tragedy, but you're seeing Republicans and conservative Democrats like Joe Manchin say things about gun control that you wouldn't otherwise expect them to.

After Congress let the assault weapons ban expire in 2004, I angrily wrote my reps, accusing Congress of political cowardice. (That's right.) I see no problem with designating certain firearms as being clearly police- or military-grade, and thus should be kept out of the hands of the (potentially unhinged, violent) public. Some people believe that the 2nd Amendment exists to allow us to overthrow the government if we need to ... well, we're so far behind the government in the arms race that I don't think being allowed to have assault weapons will make much difference. I say renew the ban.

As to high-capacity magazines... Let me preface by saying I don't own any, and if they were outlawed tomorrow, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep. But these often get lumped in with assault weapons, etc. during conversations like this, and sometimes wind up getting scrutinized disproportionate to the actual menace they pose. For those who aren't aware how this works, a handgun magazine can be ejected with the simple press of the thumb; a person can have spare magazines already filled and queued up in his belt. An empty magazine can be ejected and replaced in literally one second. So, while I'm certainly sensitive to arguments for why high-capacity magazines may be "unnecessary" for your average civilian to possess (like I said, I won't really care if they go away), I also don't believe that banning them will necessarily have the effect of slowing down shooting sprees in progress that some people probably think it would.

Oddly enough, within a short span of time, Gov Perry implied that he was in favor of arming teachers, stressing that the decision should be based upon local control (shootouts in school - I might try to go back)

GAH joked about it earlier, but there actually is a school district in Texas where some teachers are allowed to carry firearms in school.
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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #343 on: December 19, 2012, 01:31:51 PM »

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