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Author Topic: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?  (Read 39930 times)

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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #360 on: December 20, 2012, 09:31:50 AM »
So, I went back and a read a few of the first few pages of this thread... yes, we are all rehashing the same damn arguments.

So what are you saying?  That we've all pretty much cemented our opinions and won't be swayed???   :-P

Terry
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Offline mbw

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #361 on: December 20, 2012, 09:48:38 AM »
wild leaps of logic and made up statistics.  well done.

There were 14.4+ million gun background check in the US in 2011.  This doesn't include all sales.  It should be adjusted for purchases by those that have already had a background check, and for adjusted again for denied checks.  It should also be adjusted for sales outside of the jurisdiction of the law (loop-holes at gun-shows, etc).

There were 8500+ murders by firearms in US in 2011.

That comes out to 0.000596, or less that 99.9%.  Yes, I assume that all of those murders were committed with a gun sold in 2011.

Terry


ETA, if we take a guess and say that only HALF of those 14.4+ resulted in a new gun being sold, that still comes out to 0.00119, or 99.88%.

how many were used in a violent crime that didn't end in murder?    how many in suicides?  how many were rifles with a legitimate use besides the killing of humans? 

Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #362 on: December 20, 2012, 09:57:03 AM »
wild leaps of logic and made up statistics.  well done.

There were 14.4+ million gun background check in the US in 2011.  This doesn't include all sales.  It should be adjusted for purchases by those that have already had a background check, and for adjusted again for denied checks.  It should also be adjusted for sales outside of the jurisdiction of the law (loop-holes at gun-shows, etc).

There were 8500+ murders by firearms in US in 2011.

That comes out to 0.000596, or less that 99.9%.  Yes, I assume that all of those murders were committed with a gun sold in 2011.

Terry


ETA, if we take a guess and say that only HALF of those 14.4+ resulted in a new gun being sold, that still comes out to 0.00119, or 99.88%.

how many were used in a violent crime that didn't end in murder?    how many in suicides?  how many were rifles with a legitimate use besides the killing of humans?

I don't know.  You tell us.  Do you own research and tell us again how MY statistics are "made up"...  I stated that 99.9% of gun sales are not immediately followed by murder, and I can back that up.  Let's see you do the same...

We could massage the numbers all day, I'm happy to do so.  You'll find that an overwhelming amount of gun-sales never result in any person getting hurt.

And tell us, what makes one gun "legitimate" and another (I suppose) "illegitimate"?  People buy AR-15 style semi-automatic hunting rifles all the time and use them for such.  The .223 round is common and not even the largest used in hunting.  http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-r-15/model-r-15.aspx

You could say something about high-capacity magazines, but Bloomberg showed us people will just buy (2) small cokes instead of (1) large one... 

Terry
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 10:08:06 AM by twatts likes ghoti »
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Offline PIE-GUY

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #363 on: December 20, 2012, 10:00:50 AM »
So, I went back and a read a few of the first few pages of this thread... yes, we are all rehashing the same damn arguments.

So what are you saying?  That we've all pretty much cemented our opinions and won't be swayed???   :-P

Terry

I don't know - somehow this last incident in CT has swayed a bunch of Republican pundits.
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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #364 on: December 20, 2012, 10:02:32 AM »
So, I went back and a read a few of the first few pages of this thread... yes, we are all rehashing the same damn arguments.

So what are you saying?  That we've all pretty much cemented our opinions and won't be swayed???   :-P

Terry

I don't know - somehow this last incident in CT has swayed a bunch of Republican pundits.

Politicians kiss babies...  It doesn't mean they love them...

Terry


ETA  I do think Congress will do something, reenacting the Fed Assault Weapons Ban or something similar...
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Offline mbw

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #365 on: December 20, 2012, 10:12:14 AM »
ETA, if we take a guess and say that only HALF of those 14.4+ resulted in a new gun being sold, that still comes out to 0.00119, or 99.88%.

see, you were wrong.

Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #366 on: December 20, 2012, 10:12:57 AM »
ETA, if we take a guess and say that only HALF of those 14.4+ resulted in a new gun being sold, that still comes out to 0.00119, or 99.88%.

see, you were wrong.

LOL!  Cheers!

Terry
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Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #367 on: December 20, 2012, 10:56:57 AM »
So, I went back and a read a few of the first few pages of this thread... yes, we are all rehashing the same damn arguments.

So what are you saying?  That we've all pretty much cemented our opinions and won't be swayed???   :-P

Terry

I don't know - somehow this last incident in CT has swayed a bunch of Republican pundits.

It should also be noted, the NRA has/will be announcing some changes in their stance as well. Coincidence? I don't know, but LaPierre will be on Meet the Press Sunday.

Quote
NBC's "Meet the Press" has landed an exclusive interview with National Rifle Association CEO and Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, the network announced today.

LaPierre's Sunday appearance will follow what the NRA has described as a "major" press conference on Friday, at which the organization plans to make “meaningful contributions" to ensure that the tragic shooting in Newtown, Conn., "never happens again."

Amid increased calls for gun control legislation, LaPierre will address "what he thinks should be done to curb the threat of violence in America," NBC said.
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Offline mbw

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #368 on: December 20, 2012, 11:02:25 AM »
So, I went back and a read a few of the first few pages of this thread... yes, we are all rehashing the same damn arguments.

So what are you saying?  That we've all pretty much cemented our opinions and won't be swayed???   :-P

Terry

I don't know - somehow this last incident in CT has swayed a bunch of Republican pundits.

It should also be noted, the NRA has/will be announcing some changes in their stance as well. Coincidence? I don't know, but LaPierre will be on Meet the Press Sunday.

Quote
NBC's "Meet the Press" has landed an exclusive interview with National Rifle Association CEO and Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, the network announced today.

LaPierre's Sunday appearance will follow what the NRA has described as a "major" press conference on Friday, at which the organization plans to make “meaningful contributions" to ensure that the tragic shooting in Newtown, Conn., "never happens again."

Amid increased calls for gun control legislation, LaPierre will address "what he thinks should be done to curb the threat of violence in America," NBC said.

highly dubious. it will just be some more Ben Stein B.S.

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #369 on: December 20, 2012, 11:21:01 AM »
I love guns.  I hate the killing innocent people.

 I live in one of the most lax gun law areas of the country outside of Alaska.  You don't need concealed carry permits, you can buy guns and walk out of the store with one that day, AR-15s are very popular for "Varmit" hunting.

 I own 15+ guns, both pistols and rifles.  I am all for gun reform to keep horrible shit like this happening.
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Offline twatts

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #370 on: December 20, 2012, 11:34:25 AM »
I love guns.  I hate the killing innocent people.

 I live in one of the most lax gun law areas of the country outside of Alaska.  You don't need concealed carry permits, you can buy guns and walk out of the store with one that day, AR-15s are very popular for "Varmit" hunting.

 I own 15+ guns, both pistols and rifles.  I am all for gun reform to keep horrible shit like this happening.

From the rhetoric in this thread about how lax gun laws allow murderers to easily obtain guns and commit their vile offenses, you'd think there were mass-murders in WY all the time...

Or maybe murder by firearms has little to do with existence of guns or how easily they are accessed, but instead is more of a result of mental illness???

Terry
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 11:38:30 AM by twatts likes ghoti »
Oh! That! No, no, no, you're not ready to step into The Court of the Crimson King. At this stage in your training an album like that could turn you into an evil scientist.

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Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #371 on: December 20, 2012, 11:43:43 AM »
Fuck Ben Stein.

 :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

I found his statement to be hilarious actually. Clearly not his intent, but still...fuck that guy. He proves his own point as in whytf should I give a shit what he says or thinks.
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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #372 on: December 20, 2012, 12:01:02 PM »
I love guns.  I hate the killing innocent people.

 I live in one of the most lax gun law areas of the country outside of Alaska.  You don't need concealed carry permits, you can buy guns and walk out of the store with one that day, AR-15s are very popular for "Varmit" hunting.

 I own 15+ guns, both pistols and rifles.  I am all for gun reform to keep horrible shit like this happening.

From the rhetoric in this thread about how lax gun laws allow murderers to easily obtain guns and commit their vile offenses, you'd think there were mass-murders in WY all the time...

Or maybe murder by firearms has little to do with existence of guns or how easily they are accessed, but instead is more of a result of mental illness???

Terry

that is a valid argument, imo.

 I took my truck to the shop this morning and this crusty old fuck got into a conversation with me on this subject.  He is concerned about the "rag heads" and what they will do if you move towards very strict gun controls.  "at least I have a chance when someone pulls a gun on me.  If they put a bomb in one of these cars, the only chance i have is that my foot will still be attached to my leg!" 

I don't think there is an easy solution to this plague that affects our society.
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Offline mbw

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #373 on: December 20, 2012, 12:12:22 PM »
I love guns.  I hate the killing innocent people.

 I live in one of the most lax gun law areas of the country outside of Alaska.  You don't need concealed carry permits, you can buy guns and walk out of the store with one that day, AR-15s are very popular for "Varmit" hunting.

 I own 15+ guns, both pistols and rifles.  I am all for gun reform to keep horrible shit like this happening.

From the rhetoric in this thread about how lax gun laws allow murderers to easily obtain guns and commit their vile offenses....

they don't?  how do these people get guns then?


Or maybe murder by firearms has little to do with existence of guns or how easily they are accessed.....

did you read what you just wrote?

Offline gah

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Re: Gun Talk Re: have you heard about...?
« Reply #374 on: December 20, 2012, 12:17:47 PM »
I'm certainly no Huckabee fan, but it's a bit of a rhetorical stretch to say that he "blames gays for the Newtown massacre" (Salon's headline). He's blaming society's overall moral decadence, as he sees it, and he rattles off a few symptoms of that decline, including among other things our increasing tolerance for homosexuality/gay rights. It's a version of the Jerry Falwell/Fred Phelps schtick -- preacher types righteously thundering that we've lost our way as Christians and turned our backs on a life of godliness, and that's why bad things happen to us. There are no revelations here in terms of exposing Mike Huckabee's philosophy -- we already knew where he (and members of the religious right like him) stood on homosexuality and how tolerance for that is an affront to god's teachings. It's just particularly disgusting to hear people trot out that judgmental, holier-than-thou intolerance within the context of scolding us for being so anti-Jesus and using tragedy to try and frighten us back into more penitent ways.

In a sense, he's making a similar argument you are, GAH (I'm not really trying to be provocative here -- OK, maybe just a little  :wink:) -- that society's values (or lack of them) as a whole are part of the bigger cause here. Y'all are just seeing that depravity manifested in different ways.

But still, yeah, fuck Mike Huckabee.

I wasn't trying to make an argument regarding where society's values are or should be. While I might have an opinion regarding that, it's not the point I was trying to make. (Unlike that comment from Huckabee or Stein where their opinion IS the point they're trying to make).

I was simply stating that if you're offended by what happened yet choose the route of inaction, you are contributing to the policies or lack thereof that make this type of incident possible. Not that if you don't do anything, you're not allowed to be upset by it, but we could debate all day on here and come up with a working solution the 20 or so of us can live with, but it doesn't make a difference. If you feel strongly about something, let those that represent you know. Societal change starts at the individual level.
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