Author Topic: Impeachment  (Read 2739 times)

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Offline slslbs

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2008, 11:17:42 AM »
I think it's pretty clear that he and his admin manipulated the data, knew the answer they wanted before they got it, and acted.
Maybe they truly believed in what they were doing, but it also seems clear that they were not open minded about the questions, and certainly were less than honest about the investigation and the reasons.
For instance, the reasons he has used to defend the war have changed at least twice over the past 6 years.

anyway, before embarking on any war, you need to be certain of what you are doing, what you will do once that is done, and then have an exit strategy. If it's a pre-emptive war than you better be even more than certain.

they weren't

the public supported the war because they were emotional over 9/11 and believed the falsehoods we were all told by the admin.
I blame Bush and co, not the public consensus.
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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2008, 11:29:58 AM »
no legal authority

but history will not judge him kindly. and he's young enough that he will be around to hear it again and again and be tortured by it.

Agreed on the history point, but in order for Bush to be tortured he must have a conscience and I'm not so sure about that.

Zactly.
Bush thinks he's right and turns a blind eye & deaf ear to anyone who says otherwise.

He will die like Columbus; thinking he found the route to Asia.

very nice.
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Offline fauxpaxfauxreal

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2008, 12:38:15 PM »
no legal authority

but history will not judge him kindly. and he's young enough that he will be around to hear it again and again and be tortured by it.

Agreed on the history point, but in order for Bush to be tortured he must have a conscience and I'm not so sure about that.

Zactly.
Bush thinks he's right and turns a blind eye & deaf ear to anyone who says otherwise.

He will die like Columbus; thinking he found the route to Asia.

I don't even think that Bush thinks he's right... he knows that he gets White House China, White House Towels, Invites to the Presidential Functions, the knowledge that his official address at one time was 1600 Pennsylvania, memories of meeting with foreign dignitaries, not to mention all types of cool snapshots.

Also, he'll never get over the feeling of walking into a room and having everyone either salute or nod in his direction.

I don't think he's in denial as to where his place in the immediate history of the U.S. is... the knowledge that he always will be the 43rd President of these United States of America is enough to offset any guilt that anyone (including himself) does or does not believe that he deserves.

I'm not defending his policies by any means, however, I do remember CNN informing me that over half of those polled agreed that invading Iraq was a proper course of action in 2002/2003.

He was very very Democratic about his Republican policies.  While he manipulated data, anyone with half a brain (i.e. me...) knew at the time that the war in Iraq was not about Iraq's ability to invade or attack anyone else (much less the U.S.).  While the data was manipulated, most of us could plainly see that the data was manipulated when we were polled as to whether or not invading Iraq was proper.

I, myself, do not blame George for following consensus.  Perhaps you do...  I blamed him at the time.  I no longer do, I blame the consensus.

Sticking with the Iraq example, what about when the consensus changed in 2005?  That was three years ago! 

At that point we were at a quagmire.  Our administration (and our military) were at a point where real leadership could have (and didn't in many's opinion) save the day.

I do not know the particulars of making a global budget, pulling out of a foreign sovereign power, balancing global relations and maintaining U.S. sovereignty, superiority and our standard of living.

Had I been President, I would have probably just given the Iraqi's loans to begin with, helped to bring an end to the aweful embargo and persuaded Saddam Hussein with monetary forms of persuasion.

Perhaps Mr. Hussein was greedy... like I said, I don't know all of the specific particulars... (anyone got a security clearance handy?).

While I think that this administration has set back our global standing in some areas (considerably), I think it is hard to fault the President for actions that he took with our blessings (and in some cases...our prodding).

If anyone has blood on their hands, it's each and every single one of us, and until we can't accept our roles in our foreign policy decisions (both immediate and well behind us), than how can we expect our C.I.C. to accept his roll?

That being said, I think that this current election cycle has been a complete let down.  I'm sad that our children are being taught by this election cycle that "George Bush/ Republicans=BAD" and that "Barack Obama/ Democrats=GOOD".  The world is not black and white and Barack Obama isn't going to save us from ourselves.

I've seen the man speak.  I've seen Bill Clinton speak.  Maybe Barack isn't as much of a charmer as Bill was...but I was weirdly surprised to find myself entranced by Bill's speech...and bored by Barack's.

Barack's supporters are almost (if not) as bad.  I'm very afraid that Barack is "spewing his load too early" (have you noticed McCain's almost earrie silence??? Coincidence or smart politics?) and will have his momentum dissipate by the time November rolls around.

Barack is most definitely a posturer (did you see him posture during the State of the Union address?), and his catchy "Change" slogan and media campaign while looking futuristic, contains little (if any substance).

At the end of the day, I would rather my economy be nice and tidy right now than for me to feel the need to have Barack save me from my economy.  Barack seems to thrive on this need for him to save us from something.  I would prefer Barack make our perfect world better, and for us to not need him to save us from some type of quagmire.

..................................simply put.  I don't want there to have to be something for someone to have to save us from.

I know this is really off topic, and I do support Mr. Kucinich's candor, his courage and his willingness to present Articles of Impeachment because the voice of dissent is integral to keeping the politics of choice alive, I do not know if George Bush is really as guilty as we all give him credit for being (us being the "Paugers" in this case) or if we are all just as guilty as Mr. Bush and we desire to use him as our own personal patsy...


Offline Hicks

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2008, 12:41:38 PM »
no legal authority

but history will not judge him kindly. and he's young enough that he will be around to hear it again and again and be tortured by it.

Agreed on the history point, but in order for Bush to be tortured he must have a conscience and I'm not so sure about that.

Zactly.
Bush thinks he's right and turns a blind eye & deaf ear to anyone who says otherwise.

He will die like Columbus; thinking he found the route to Asia.

I don't even think that Bush thinks he's right... he knows that he gets White House China, White House Towels, Invites to the Presidential Functions, the knowledge that his official address at one time was 1600 Pennsylvania, memories of meeting with foreign dignitaries, not to mention all types of cool snapshots.

Also, he'll never get over the feeling of walking into a room and having everyone either salute or nod in his direction.

I don't think he's in denial as to where his place in the immediate history of the U.S. is... the knowledge that he always will be the 43rd President of these United States of America is enough to offset any guilt that anyone (including himself) does or does not believe that he deserves.

I'm not defending his policies by any means, however, I do remember CNN informing me that over half of those polled agreed that invading Iraq was a proper course of action in 2002/2003.

He was very very Democratic about his Republican policies.  While he manipulated data, anyone with half a brain (i.e. me...) knew at the time that the war in Iraq was not about Iraq's ability to invade or attack anyone else (much less the U.S.).  While the data was manipulated, most of us could plainly see that the data was manipulated when we were polled as to whether or not invading Iraq was proper.

I, myself, do not blame George for following consensus.  Perhaps you do...  I blamed him at the time.  I no longer do, I blame the consensus.

Sticking with the Iraq example, what about when the consensus changed in 2005?  That was three years ago! 

At that point we were at a quagmire.  Our administration (and our military) were at a point where real leadership could have (and didn't in many's opinion) save the day.

I do not know the particulars of making a global budget, pulling out of a foreign sovereign power, balancing global relations and maintaining U.S. sovereignty, superiority and our standard of living.

Had I been President, I would have probably just given the Iraqi's loans to begin with, helped to bring an end to the aweful embargo and persuaded Saddam Hussein with monetary forms of persuasion.

Perhaps Mr. Hussein was greedy... like I said, I don't know all of the specific particulars... (anyone got a security clearance handy?).

While I think that this administration has set back our global standing in some areas (considerably), I think it is hard to fault the President for actions that he took with our blessings (and in some cases...our prodding).

If anyone has blood on their hands, it's each and every single one of us, and until we can't accept our roles in our foreign policy decisions (both immediate and well behind us), than how can we expect our C.I.C. to accept his roll?

That being said, I think that this current election cycle has been a complete let down.  I'm sad that our children are being taught by this election cycle that "George Bush/ Republicans=BAD" and that "Barack Obama/ Democrats=GOOD".  The world is not black and white and Barack Obama isn't going to save us from ourselves.

I've seen the man speak.  I've seen Bill Clinton speak.  Maybe Barack isn't as much of a charmer as Bill was...but I was weirdly surprised to find myself entranced by Bill's speech...and bored by Barack's.

Barack's supporters are almost (if not) as bad.  I'm very afraid that Barack is "spewing his load too early" (have you noticed McCain's almost earrie silence??? Coincidence or smart politics?) and will have his momentum dissipate by the time November rolls around.

Barack is most definitely a posturer (did you see him posture during the State of the Union address?), and his catchy "Change" slogan and media campaign while looking futuristic, contains little (if any substance).

At the end of the day, I would rather my economy be nice and tidy right now than for me to feel the need to have Barack save me from my economy.  Barack seems to thrive on this need for him to save us from something.  I would prefer Barack make our perfect world better, and for us to not need him to save us from some type of quagmire.

..................................simply put.  I don't want there to have to be something for someone to have to save us from.

I know this is really off topic, and I do support Mr. Kucinich's candor, his courage and his willingness to present Articles of Impeachment because the voice of dissent is integral to keeping the politics of choice alive, I do not know if George Bush is really as guilty as we all give him credit for being (us being the "Paugers" in this case) or if we are all just as guilty as Mr. Bush and we desire to use him as our own personal patsy...



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Offline fauxpaxfauxreal

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2008, 01:00:33 PM »
You probably lost interest right around the time that I requested a security clearance  :roll:

 :mrgreen:

Offline sophist

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2008, 06:38:56 PM »
Faux,

That was well put, and I think Ikki should read it when he gets the chance.   

However, I disagree with part of your argument.  Suggesting that the public is to blame is silly to me.  The public can't know what the president knows, therefore the public is ill informed.  Thus making our opinion moot.  You said yourself that you'd need a security clearance to know the details, but thats not going to be granted to the public.  So for an informed individual to listen to the uninformed public is naturally counterintuitive. 

Thats like a doctor of physics taking advice from a group of high school students (the extent of knowledge isn't equal).  Further, your appeal to ignorance argument is flawed from the get go.  Not having all the information present for the public doesn't negate the duty of the executive branch to be truthful to the public (to the extent the executive branch can give information- i.e. national security).  To get back to the high school metaphor  its like the doctor of physics telling the high school crowd that "X" law occurs due to natural principals "Y."  When in reality "Y" is 100% false, but "Y" serves the agenda of the doctor of physics. 

To get to president now, he stuck to his guns for whatever reason, and the result has hampered this country and the citizens of Iraq.  It is the fault of the administration and the administration only. 
       
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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2008, 06:53:31 PM »
New member here, so better pledge my political allegiance quickly!  Bush is without question one of the worst leaders in the history of the world.  We have been subjected to him for 7 years thanks to the sly and shady politics of Karl Rove.  Bush stole two elections...started an illegal war that has killed thousands...mishandled one of the worst natural disasters in our history...manipulated the law, the constitution and the supreme court to his will...and the man who ran for office the first time around on the "I am a uniter, not a divider" platform will leave office with our country perhaps more divided than ever before...

We should be so lucky that an actual impeachment would go through in order to simply record, in the same way the right insisted upon with Clinton, his errors and their place in our history.  But according to my 2008 George W. Bushim's calendar we only have 222 more days until this terrible man can no longer be president of this once very proud country.

Living in Cleveland right now I can sadly vouch for the insanity of Kucinich.  At the same time it bums me out that he gets knocked out of every presidential primary season so early.  He has some decent ideas that are more applicable to what our democracy has become...which is actually more like beaurocratic capitalism.  That is why his insane (I mean socialist) tendencies appeal to some but not many in this confused and lost society...

We ourselves will carry much of the burden to remember and record in history the tragedy that has been president bush...

Thanks for the place to vent!

Offline sophist

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2008, 09:40:47 PM »
New member here, so better pledge my political allegiance quickly!  Bush is without question one of the worst leaders in the history of the world.  We have been subjected to him for 7 years thanks to the sly and shady politics of Karl Rove.  Bush stole two elections...started an illegal war that has killed thousands...mishandled one of the worst natural disasters in our history...manipulated the law, the constitution and the supreme court to his will...and the man who ran for office the first time around on the "I am a uniter, not a divider" platform will leave office with our country perhaps more divided than ever before...

We should be so lucky that an actual impeachment would go through in order to simply record, in the same way the right insisted upon with Clinton, his errors and their place in our history.  But according to my 2008 George W. Bushim's calendar we only have 222 more days until this terrible man can no longer be president of this once very proud country.

Living in Cleveland right now I can sadly vouch for the insanity of Kucinich.  At the same time it bums me out that he gets knocked out of every presidential primary season so early.  He has some decent ideas that are more applicable to what our democracy has become...which is actually more like beaurocratic capitalism.  That is why his insane (I mean socialist) tendencies appeal to some but not many in this confused and lost society...

We ourselves will carry much of the burden to remember and record in history the tragedy that has been president bush...

Thanks for the place to vent!

Bush didn't steal either election, that is a lie.  Read the Florida constitution and you will see that it allows seven days for a recount.  It took the state of Florida more than seven days to recount the ballets, so the Supreme Court was correct in its rulings and stepping in to enforce the law.  Rules are rules, and they have a reason for having a time limit.  Gore lost because he ran a shitty campaign, not because of Bush. 

The 2004 election lies on the fault of the DNC for failing to prepare for the rise of Christian groups and their propaganda campaign.  Not to mention the blunders of Kerry's campaign managers, who failed to counter the swift vets and their propaganda.  Bush ran a better campaign. 

Its about time the left realized THEY ARE TO BLAME FOR LOSING THE 2000 & 2004 ELECTIONS, AND EXCEPT THEIR MISTAKES, instead of perpetuating these distorted talking points.   
Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 09:59:58 PM »
I'd just like to note that, while Kucinich may be nutty, Socialism is not insane.

flufhed

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 10:09:54 PM »
I'd just like to note that, while Kucinich may be nutty, Socialism is not insane.


Ha Ha...so true.

And I would like to note to Sophist...I come from the land of Philo-sophia myself...BA from Stony Brook...this should be fun!


Offline sophist

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2008, 10:18:23 PM »
I'd just like to note that, while Kucinich may be nutty, Socialism is not insane.


Ha Ha...so true.

And I would like to note to Sophist...I come from the land of Philo-sophia myself...BA from Stony Brook...this should be fun!



BBA in Finance for me.  I just stated prepping for the LSAT actually, and will take it in the December 6th.   

Can we talk about the Dead?  I'd love to talk about the fucking Grateful Dead, for once, can we please discuss the Grateful FUCKING Dead!?!?!?!

flufhed

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2008, 10:19:59 PM »
I'd just like to note that, while Kucinich may be nutty, Socialism is not insane.


Ha Ha...so true.

And I would like to note to Sophist...I come from the land of Philo-sophia myself...BA from Stony Brook...this should be fun!



BBA in Finance for me.  I just stated prepping for the LSAT actually, and will take it in the December 6th.   



Yikes...well good luck with that!  Just an interest in philosophy then?  It was a guess based on the name...

Offline sophist

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2008, 10:24:29 PM »
I'd just like to note that, while Kucinich may be nutty, Socialism is not insane.

Very true.  Marx and Engel made some very valid points that are still valid today.  Anybody that dismisses an ideology outright is nuts in my opinion, since all ideologies hold some level(s) of truth.   


I'd just like to note that, while Kucinich may be nutty, Socialism is not insane.


Ha Ha...so true.

And I would like to note to Sophist...I come from the land of Philo-sophia myself...BA from Stony Brook...this should be fun!



BBA in Finance for me.  I just stated prepping for the LSAT actually, and will take it in the December 6th.   



Yikes...well good luck with that!  Just an interest in philosophy then?  It was a guess based on the name...
yeah, I was one class short of a minor in philosophy, but I didn't care enough to take it, nor did I want the burden of six classes my last semester.  I choose Finance because I liked the "outside the box" thinking it required, which was unlike many of the other business majors.   
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Offline sophist

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2008, 10:37:28 PM »
Cool, well as Socrates said "The wisest man knows he knows nothing".  We all have to stick to our guns, whatever they are, until we have proof of something better.  Philosophy is awesome...not for everyone though!  It gets me lots of looks...like "shut the F up!".  That's cause the truth hurts!

Those LSAT's are a bitch too...a good friend of mine actually just did those for finance as well...last year...she was miserable!

LSAT = Law School Admission Test (The test is composed of logic based concepts only, no specific knowledge is required). 

A masters/doctorate in Finance requires the GMAT test, which is completely different. 
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Offline susep

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2008, 11:01:05 PM »

Bush didn't steal either election, that is a lie.  Read the Florida constitution and you will see that it allows seven days for a recount.  It took the state of Florida more than seven days to recount the ballets, so the Supreme Court was correct in its rulings and stepping in to enforce the law.  Rules are rules, and they have a reason for having a time limit.  Gore lost because he ran a shitty campaign, not because of Bush. 

The 2004 election lies on the fault of the DNC for failing to prepare for the rise of Christian groups and their propaganda campaign.  Not to mention the blunders of Kerry's campaign managers, who failed to counter the swift vets and their propaganda.  Bush ran a better campaign. 

Its about time the left realized THEY ARE TO BLAME FOR LOSING THE 2000 & 2004 ELECTIONS, AND EXCEPT THEIR MISTAKES, instead of perpetuating these distorted talking points.   

I disagree with your ideas.  In my mind Bush Corporation won both elections with the help of electronic voting machines in FL.(btw, big brother Jeb being Gov. helped) which allowed the initial recount and subsequent Republican/Conservative Supreme Court to elect their majority.

Bush didn't run a better campaign necessarily but rather, ran a campaign which allowed him to manipulate the results.  He ran it better in the sense of he won, yes but in a very deceitful and corrupt way. 

Would have 9/11 happened if Gore won?  Probably not, maybe, but his(Gore) admin. wouldn't have consisted of Rummy/Cheney/and the various War dogs that pushed towards Iraq. 
Imo, the creators of 9/11 needed Bush to win to act as their presidential puppet, creating an emotional catapult in solidifying public opinion for us to invade "terrorist" states.