Sweet 16 - Round 3 - Gamehenge Region 11-Miles Davis v. 2-Talking Heads

[guyforget]

i vote w/ my gut, not this kind of analysis



i listen to more talking heads than miles davis

[Hicks]

i vote w/ my gut, not this kind of analysis



i listen to more talking heads than miles davis

I think guts and analysis are equally valuable, especially in terms of producing loads of crap.   :wink:

[fauxpaxfauxreal]

[sls.stormyrider]

Sun Ra and Ornette were out there for sure.
But when guys like Phil and Duane themselves saying that one of there main influences was Miles, its hard to argue with the fact that Miles had a huge influence.
Miles influence on rock improv went back to Kind of Blue - well before Bitches Brew, Ornette, and Sun Ra. It wasn't the craziness at all.

[Hicks]

Sun Ra and Ornette were out there for sure.
But when guys like Phil and Duane themselves saying that one of there main influences was Miles, its hard to argue with the fact that Miles had a huge influence.
Miles influence on rock improv went back to Kind of Blue - well before Bitches Brew, Ornette, and Sun Ra. It wasn't the craziness at all.

Actually Kind of Blue and Ornette's The Shape of Jazz to Come both came out in 1959.

I dunno Duane Allman can say that a jazz trumpeter was a main influence, but frankly I find it hard to believe that Miles was as much of an influence on him as blues, rock and country dudes. 

Phil makes a little more sense, but my point was that the Grateful Dead formed in 1965 when Davis was still doing fairly straight ahead jazz.

[barnesy305]

From Lesh's book:
"As I listened, leaning over the amps with my jaw hanging agape, trying to comprehend the forces that Miles was unleashing onstage, I was thinking, 'What's the use? How can we possibly play after this? We should just go home and try to digest this unbelievable shit.' This was our first encounter with Miles' new direction. Bitches Brew had only just been released, but I know I hadn't yet heard any of it... In some ways, it was similar to what we were trying to do in our free jamming, but ever so much more dense with ideas, and seemingly controlled with an iron first, even at its most alarmingly intense moments. Of us all, only Jerry had the nerve to go back and meet Miles, with whom he struck up a warm conversation. Miles was surprised and delighted to know that we knew and loved his music."

[barnesy305]

Guitarist Duane Allman of the Allman Brothers Band said his soloing on songs such as "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" "comes from Miles and Coltrane, and particularly Kind of Blue. I've listened to that album so many times that for the past couple of years, I haven't hardly listened to anything else."

And I have read an interview with Duane in which he states that he wanted his slide playing to sound like a horn , so not really a big stretch.

[Hicks]

From Lesh's book:
"As I listened, leaning over the amps with my jaw hanging agape, trying to comprehend the forces that Miles was unleashing onstage, I was thinking, 'What's the use? How can we possibly play after this? We should just go home and try to digest this unbelievable shit.' This was our first encounter with Miles' new direction. Bitches Brew had only just been released, but I know I hadn't yet heard any of it... In some ways, it was similar to what we were trying to do in our free jamming, but ever so much more dense with ideas, and seemingly controlled with an iron first, even at its most alarmingly intense moments. Of us all, only Jerry had the nerve to go back and meet Miles, with whom he struck up a warm conversation. Miles was surprised and delighted to know that we knew and loved his music."

Right, I said Phil made a little more sense to me. 

In any case Bitches Brew came out after the band had developed a jamming style in 68-69. 

Guitarist Duane Allman of the Allman Brothers Band said his soloing on songs such as "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" "comes from Miles and Coltrane, and particularly Kind of Blue. I've listened to that album so many times that for the past couple of years, I haven't hardly listened to anything else."

And I have read an interview with Duane in which he states that he wanted his slide playing to sound like a horn , so not really a big stretch.

I still think it's hyperbole to say that Miles created the kind of music that the Allman's played.  Regardless of how much Duane was enamored with jazz, the lion's share of the credit has to go to the bluesman, with no small nod to Hendrix, that were the true architects of the type of music that he played. 

[fauxpaxfauxreal]

I think that playing with Miles did have a lot to do with the maturation of the sound between 72-74.  However, I still picked the Talking Heads.

[barnesy305]

From Lesh's book:
"As I listened, leaning over the amps with my jaw hanging agape, trying to comprehend the forces that Miles was unleashing onstage, I was thinking, 'What's the use? How can we possibly play after this? We should just go home and try to digest this unbelievable shit.' This was our first encounter with Miles' new direction. Bitches Brew had only just been released, but I know I hadn't yet heard any of it... In some ways, it was similar to what we were trying to do in our free jamming, but ever so much more dense with ideas, and seemingly controlled with an iron first, even at its most alarmingly intense moments. Of us all, only Jerry had the nerve to go back and meet Miles, with whom he struck up a warm conversation. Miles was surprised and delighted to know that we knew and loved his music."

Right, I said Phil made a little more sense to me. 

In any case Bitches Brew came out after the band had developed a jamming style in 68-69. 

Guitarist Duane Allman of the Allman Brothers Band said his soloing on songs such as "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" "comes from Miles and Coltrane, and particularly Kind of Blue. I've listened to that album so many times that for the past couple of years, I haven't hardly listened to anything else."

And I have read an interview with Duane in which he states that he wanted his slide playing to sound like a horn , so not really a big stretch.

I still think it's hyperbole to say that Miles created the kind of music that the Allman's played.  Regardless of how much Duane was enamored with jazz, the lion's share of the credit has to go to the bluesman, with no small nod to Hendrix, that were the true architects of the type of music that he played.

I'm not saying he necessarily influenced their style but more directly Duane's playing in the context of the band and their aesthetic and approach.

[MeltMe]

An influence doesn't have to be detected/heard in someones style, its more of how one influences the creative process and thoughts of what can be done.

[sls.stormyrider]

From Lesh's book:
"As I listened, leaning over the amps with my jaw hanging agape, trying to comprehend the forces that Miles was unleashing onstage, I was thinking, 'What's the use? How can we possibly play after this? We should just go home and try to digest this unbelievable shit.' This was our first encounter with Miles' new direction. Bitches Brew had only just been released, but I know I hadn't yet heard any of it... In some ways, it was similar to what we were trying to do in our free jamming, but ever so much more dense with ideas, and seemingly controlled with an iron first, even at its most alarmingly intense moments. Of us all, only Jerry had the nerve to go back and meet Miles, with whom he struck up a warm conversation. Miles was surprised and delighted to know that we knew and loved his music."

like I said, Miles influence was prior to Bitches Brew. Phil was well trained in classical music and jazz well before that.
as far as Bitches Brew goes, Miles admits to borrowing from Jimi, Sly Stone, Buddy Miles, and others

I still think it's hyperbole to say that Miles created the kind of music that the Allman's played.  Regardless of how much Duane was enamored with jazz, the lion's share of the credit has to go to the bluesman, with no small nod to Hendrix, that were the true architects of the type of music that he played. 

neither Miles nor anyone else "created" the kind of music the Allmans played. (hyperbole is not a rare visitor to the board, btw). What they got from him is a type of improvisation, with a more melodic, modal approach. It goes without saying that the bluesmen contributed a ton to their style, but the extended improv came more out of jazz than traditional blues. Duane's approach in Dreams is a great example. His solos in general had a more melodic approach.

You need not take my word for any of this. Duane's words, imo suffice - but you can also listen to what they play. Dreams almost always has a section that directly quotes All Blues. At the Beacon in 09 they played In a Silent Way, they opened the run this year with Spanish Key and jammed it about 3 times this run (their instrumentation is much more suited to this era). They also pay homage to the blues masters, but they are clearly paying tribute to Miles.

[Hicks]

An influence doesn't have to be detected/heard in someones style, its more of how one influences the creative process and thoughts of what can be done.

Sure, but I'd also say that the way the musicians talk about their process in interviews and the way they actually do it, can also frequently be quite different. 

[phuzzyfish12]

Miles is only down by 1 vote. I'd like to see him upset in this round.

Who hasn't voted yet?? VOTE MILES  :rawk:

[gah]

Miles is only down by 1 vote. I'd like to see him upset in this round.

Who hasn't voted yet?? VOTE MILES  :rawk:

What she said! (note, I do like the talking heads, but a miles upset will make the next round more interesting)

also, someone that voted talking heads could change their mind....