some thoughts

[sophist]

I think the demographic and the overall philosophy of the crowd impacts the band's playing directly.  The truth is, people are way more ADD now, and as a result I think the band sees a lack of patience with the crowd when they do take it out there.  I see this night in and night out with each show I see of 3.0 Phish and it also filters over into Panic as well, and it was really apparent to me on my last run of 3.0.  On the first night of Alpharetta, when the DWD left familiar territory the energy in the pit dropped, and so many people looked lost.  I began to hear chatter and people just didn't get that the real magic was about to happen.  This is just evidence that the crowd has changed.  The band can't be psychedelic because the crowd isn't psychedelic.  As crazy as it sounds, when acid was more popular among the fans, it did change how the crowd behaved.  I see far more people doing blow, K, and some sort of mollie derivative at shows now.  I'm not judging, do what you want, but it needs to be said that when you take a drug that makes you social or makes you want to dance, the psychedelic component of the music is going to bore you or seem less interesting.  This is just common sense, it's why mollie isn't flowing at a Godspeed You Black Emperor concert and it is being passed around liberally at raves and Phish shows.  Now, I'm not saying switching drugs is the answer here, it's just an observation I've had with this scene. 

The second night of Alpharetta is case and point of Gumbo's point.  You guys have read my thoughts on that, and that crowd ate it up.  It completely disgusted me that these tepid versions of songs were being celebrated like Christ's birth in the manger.  People were just going ape shit over the setlist.  To me, that says everything.  That the bulk of fans now aren't listening to real Phish, and that they just don't know what this band is capable of at times.  I've made new friends here in Atlanta that are 3.0 generation kids (my age), and the difference in how they view and approach the band astounds me.  I don't think my opinion is in higher regard, but they don't download or seek out old shows.  They only download shows attended.  They have no idea about the 90's.  They approach the music with this philosophy of what was played rather than how it was played.  This is the key difference to me.  People flip out that they played X despite the fact that it was played poorly or has been overplayed.  I think this is a result of how other jam bands approach music. 

The biggest commonality between the Dead and Phish is how they approached music.  The Dead had this vigor where each version could be completely unique and could stand out above other versions, Phish had the same style in the 90's (they still do to a certain degree).  I think it's part of what pulled in a huge influx of Dead fans when Jerry died.  No other jam band has this sort of approach.  I love panic, but differentiation of versions is pointless with them.  There is no epic version or anything that makes a particular night special, it's just a good show or not.  I say the same thing about a lot of other jam bands too.  I think with Phish gone from August '04 - March '09, a few things happened. 

1) There was no longer a band that was notches above everyone else.  The Dead led Phish, and Phish led Panic, Cheese, UM, Moe, Bisco, etc. 
2) The proliferation of music festivals and the overlapping of jam band crowds.  There was a time where we had a separation of fans.  Some overlap has always existed, but it's pretty non existent now.  Save for the older fans that have stuck with their tastes. 

examples:
RJ- hates Bisco, doesn't like UM, Moe, Cheese, etc
August- besides the Dead, Phish, and MMW isn't a jam band fan
Jedifunk- only a phish fan
Igbo- Phish, Dead

where as the younger generation (raised on 2.0 and 3.0) seems to like a large portion of jam bands.  I think the increased amount of music festivals directly impacted how these jam bands were playing from having this expanded demographic of fans and simply playing with each other.  How many times have moe, bisco, tribe, UM, or some other band been on the same bill for a festival?  While the bands sound different musically, the approach to a live show is pretty much the same.  2 sets, covers, originals, segues, and some jamming.  It's not a new format, where as Phish took the concept of opening up a song a lot further than the Dead ever did.  Could any Dead fan ever fathomed the Dead opening with a Stones song and stretching it out to almost 20 minutes?  No.  But Phish did do that. 

3) The formatting of jam bands has programmed the inept and docile fanbases.  From taking pages out of Phish and the Dead's playbook, other bands follow suite with this concept of crazy covers.  I think this is why so many people lose their shit over what is played versus how it is played. 

4) The change from a predominately psychedelic culture to a party culture has widened the demographic.  I think it's fitting to think about the demographics of psychedelic drugs.  Far more males use these kind of drugs, and the original cross over into Phish fans being like 99% male, where as now I see shit loads of females at shows implies a lot to me.  That being that psychedelic use is down among fans.  Every show of 3.0 I've hit I have had more friends ask me about mollie than mushrooms or doses.  I've also been offered mollie far more than doses.  I'm thankful the ladies are coming out in droves. 

Finally, this is just my general observation of what I think has happened and why the shift in the crowd has occurred.  Obviously exceptions exist, and younger fans are out there that do go with this same philosophy of how it is played. 

[sophist]

TLDR

Gotta be honest dude, this goes out to you and anyone else that bitches about the "hating" of 3.0.  Gumbo posts some real analysis and discussion about the band, and you can't take 5-10 minutes to read a worthy post?  That's seriously fucking weak.  Isn't this what you guys want?  Genuine discussion without the generic "3.0 sucks" comments?  But you blow it off.  Sweet contribution.   :roll:

[aphineday]

riddle me this, riddle me that.....

Maybe what I meant was that it's easy to want to satisfy the "raging peak" crowd ALL the time. Almost seems to me that T is so worried about the next peak, that he doesn't let jamz develop.

Why can't both levels coexist within the same context.....? a la Chalkdust from IT.....

What would a jam be without some kind of peak?.....

I definitely don't have a problem with peaks at all when they use them in the right way. They are a natural part of most jams, and in fact a peakless jam would make it worse for me. I just think that when he leads a peak, it needs to be natural, not forced, and the only other thing on his mind shouldn't be the next peak, but that's how it seems to be right now. I wish they were equally concerned with developing the in between, and not just peaks.

[antelope19]

TLDR

Gotta be honest dude, this goes out to you and anyone else that bitches about the "hating" of 3.0.  Gumbo posts some real analysis and discussion about the band, and you can't take 5-10 minutes to read a worthy post?  That's seriously fucking weak.  Isn't this what you guys want?  Genuine discussion without the generic "3.0 sucks" comments?  But you blow it off.  Sweet contribution.   :roll:

It was a joke. But since you made it personal, I'll go ahead and weigh in.

No, I don't read half of the bull shit hatred you guys spew. I honestly think a number of you need to move on. You make it sound the band owes you something. Shit just gets real old when people bitch about repeats, and then the band changes it up, and you bitch about that too.

I couldnt be happier with the progress the band has made over the last year or so. The composed sections are much better. Sure, some of the transitions are "forced", but to me, that's such a minor detail in the overall picture. I'm there to gave a good time, see some of my best friends in the world, and listen to my favorite band. I feel LUCKY to be able to do so. It's a priveledge, not a right.

If you don't like what the band is doing, don't go. More room for those of us that do enjoy it. And seriously, if you hate something so much, why do you go on the Internet to bitch about it? Do you not have anything better to do?

I don't know, alot of the attitude around here has been weighing on me lately.

[nakedpa]

i wasn't around for 1.0 or 2.0, but how much hating existed then compared to now?  just so i know how serious to take you jokers

[twatts]

i wasn't around for 1.0 or 2.0, but how much hating existed then compared to now?  just so i know how serious to take you jokers

Post Clifford Ball fans suck...  They just don't know how good we had it early on...

Terry

[mattstick]

People have always been critical, and there has always been something to complain about.

The biggest problem is people who take criticism of the band or shows they were at personally, and get offended that people don't like everything as much as they did.

A discussion of the shortcomings of the show is much better than reading one of Mr. Miner's reviews.

[twatts]

The biggest problem is people who take criticism of the band or shows they were at personally, and get offended that people don't like everything as much as they did.

Its an issue because PH is a Religion...  You are questioning someone's PHaith when you point out that their favorite show was a brown-steamy... 

Terry

[rowjimmy]

People have always been critical, and there has always been something to complain about.

The biggest problem is people who take criticism of the band or shows they were at personally, and get offended that people don't like everything as much as they did.

A discussion of the shortcomings of the show is much better than reading one of Mr. Miner's reviews.

Right. It is easy
to glow about how awesome
everything is.

To take what you love
and view it objectively
is the real challenge.

[sophist]

TLDR

Gotta be honest dude, this goes out to you and anyone else that bitches about the "hating" of 3.0.  Gumbo posts some real analysis and discussion about the band, and you can't take 5-10 minutes to read a worthy post?  That's seriously fucking weak.  Isn't this what you guys want?  Genuine discussion without the generic "3.0 sucks" comments?  But you blow it off.  Sweet contribution.   :roll:

It was a joke. But since you made it personal, I'll go ahead and weigh in.

No, I don't read half of the bull shit hatred you guys spew. I honestly think a number of you need to move on. You make it sound the band owes you something. Shit just gets real old when people bitch about repeats, and then the band changes it up, and you bitch about that too.

I couldnt be happier with the progress the band has made over the last year or so. The composed sections are are much better. Sure, some of the transitions are "forced", but to me, that's such a minor detail in the overall picture. I'm there to gave a good time, see some of my best friends in the world, and listen to my favorite band. I feel LUCKY to be able to do so. It's a priveledge, not a right.

If you don't like what the band is doing, don't go. More room for those of us that do enjoy it. And seriously, if you hate something so much, why do you go on the Internet to bitch about it? Do you not have anything better to do?

I don't know, alot of the attitude around here has been weighing on me lately.

Did you read my last post in this thread? 

How is that hating?  How is that bullshit?  Explain.  I did what was asked in this thread.  I contributed and offered up a heart felt and serious discussion on the state of the band.  You, basically told the critical people to go away.  Again, I'd say sweet contribution.  There are people on this board that fluff the shit out of 3.0 and I have mad respect for their opinion (Pieguy, and Scotty being two people who I know love the state of this band and I also really respect and appreciate their opinions on music and Phish).  And I know they really appreciate my take on music too, it's why they engage me on various topics with regard to music.  Kind of makes wonder if you even get where I'm coming from if you think I'm simply "spewing bullshit."  Or if you understand what I really think of Phish or how they've impacted me as a person.  While I may not agree with Scott or Dave on their take of 3.0, I know for a fucking fact that can see right through me with how I really feel about Phish.  It's why we share a passion for discussing music and a love for Phish.  Anyone that spends anytime with me knows this.  If I wanted to be a dick troll like FPFR I could, but I'm not.  I offer up serious analysis and I dive deep into the music. 

[UncleEbinezer]

I have to say first and foremost, this is the most analytical and civil discussion thread that has fired up in a while and I personally would like to see it remain that way.  I think lope probably didn't think his words out as well as he would have liked.

1) HATE - There have been a lot of times where comments just a this sucks, that sucks, Phish sucks, etc.  That does get old.  I've just ignored it because I don't agree with all of it.

2) FLUFF - Sometimes it happens.  Ignore that too.

3) This thread -

I am very pumped to see that we are taking some time to actually analyze and critically discuss our observations.  I for one lean in general to the Fluff side of things.  I am enjoying Phish and will continue to enjoy Phish as long as they are progressing.  The Phish that we are hearing right now is NOT the Phish we saw in the Summer of 2009.  Maybe we aren't getting the psychadelic jams that we did in the 90's but Phish is by far much better as a unit than in 2009. 

I know this is preaching to the choir, but I don't just look at Phish as the musical outlet.  Phish is more than that.  It is community, friendship, and a total escape.  There were people I simply did not see from 2004 to 2009.  Its just how life and the world works, but now I get a chance to see them on the regular along with the music.  Its pretty awesome if you ask me.

Now some may say, well we should be discussing the music and while we do there are SO many factors that impact what is being done on stage.  The band is older, they don't do drugs, they have kids, the fans have kids, wives, jobs, economy, on and on and on.  I think every aspect of this is how we get what we get now.  As soph mentioned the difference in drugs I think is a factor, but I think its all intertwined from what is mentioned in the previous sentence.  I think the fact that many of us are interested in a cottage versus a tent and these kind of things play such a role.  I'm just not sure we will ever find a single silver bullet on this one.  Things are just different.

I have listened to every note on this tour and I am generally pleased with what I have heard.  Unfortunately not all of it will be on my iPod like the entire 97 tours, but thats quite OK.  I still enjoy what I've heard and will continue to enjoy going to a show or 2 or 5. 

I for one believe that Phish will never again be the Phish we all want, but I am glad there is Phish and that there is the paug and that there is a continuing movement forward in whatever shape its been.  Ripcords suck and whale calls suck and totally botched Divided Sky's suck, but in 2004 - 2009 we had nothing.  I would rather take a 90% or whatever grade you'd give them than a 0.  I know I'm not 100% every day of my life so why should they? 

We are critical because they are special!  But special doesn't translate to perfect. 

If I had to create a wish, I wish that Phish could give me the Fall 97 snakes every night.  I also wish I could eat mushrooms like they were candy and not have a care in the world. 

If I had to speak to reality, I'm OK with what we got now.  2009<2010<2011 and hopefully <2012<.....

[Hicks]

I think people have always been critical of the band, in fact I think it's part of what makes Phish fans so unique, in that we would pay such careful attention to the music and dissect it with such precision.

What I think is different with 3.0 is that there seems to be this divide and reconciling the two camps is nearly impossible.  It's almost like politics where viewpoints are so divergent that you have to wonder if there even is such a thing as objective reality.  On one hand you've got guys like Miner who claim that the band is "at the top of their game" and at a new creative peak and then you've got the "haters" who think that Phish has become just what they had always feared, a novelty act and caricature of their former selves.  Of course the truth is probably somewhere in the middle but it's difficult for me to understand how people can hear the music so differently.  When Miner ways that the IX Gin was a "huge" version I'm just left scratching my head, cause all I heard was the usual rawk peak.   

Personally I think I'm on the hater side of the spectrum, but can still enjoy Phish when they bring it, which is unfortunately IMO is not as often as they phone it in these days. 

I will say that there may be something larger going on here than just Phish and their audience.  Another thing I think is unique to the Phish scene, or any scene that has its roots in psychedelic use, is that it is reflection of something much deeper.  That is, a scene like Phish mirrors the current state of society, or beyond that the evolution of human consciousness, in ways that a normal rock show does not.  And when we really look at ourselves, what is the state of human consciousness these days?  From my view it ain't pretty, we are distracted, confused and ultimately a reckless and careless lot.  So that's what you get a Phish show too, a bunch of kids that are there to get wasted and "rage" and don't really have the patience for a truly deep and meaningful experience.  So in the respect that a Phish show is kind of a microcosm of where humanity is at right now, so too is the music a reflection of what's going on in the crowd. 

I dunno, you know that feeling you had when you were young that music or psychedelics could really change the world for the better?  In a lot of ways I think that what we are seeing is the death of that (again, this all happened before to our parents in the late 60s and early 70s), and if there is any real "hate" perhaps that's where it really comes from.

[PIE-GUY]

One of the great things about a Phish fest is that they really do give you a great perspective on the state of all things  . A Phish fest is Phish Inc. at their best. Plain and simple. And I do mean Phish Inc., not just  .

Read the daily papers published at the fest. Read the interviews with Trey and with CK5 and with Lars and Tom Marshal, and the Dude. Everyone is on the same page, for sure. Granted, they are all part of a PR machine that paints a rosy picture, but the picture is really interesting.

There was a comment from Russ Bennet about how the backstage scene used to be a HUGE party. He described it as the battery that charged everything that happened out in the "Ball Square" and all the art and everything at the old fests. He wasn't saying "that's gone and so there is no battery and everything is dead now." He was implying that the band and the creative people around them have changed and grown up. The things that "charge" them now are different than they were when they were younger.

And, honestly, I think that change has way more to do with the current state of the band than anything they see in the crowd. I still think Trey has trouble with patience. His mind is restless and he can feel restlessness in the crowd at times and that may be what makes him force new musical ideas before the current ones have been fully explored. I agree with Sophist that the crowd get antsy when things get too "out there" these days. I noticed it at Bethel. I didn't notice it at SBIX, however. I think at the fest you have exactly the people who will listen to exploration no matter what.

Then again, I was in the dance-party zone all weekend. When the music got quiet, all I could hear was the shuffling of feet. People were not talking around me. I watched a youtube video shot from behind the soundboard and all I could hear was idiots talking over the music.

So, thinking out loud, I realize, perhaps Trey gets restless and moves on too soon because he hears people talking and getting restless out in the crowd. I don't know.

At any rate, I truly think this weekend was Phish at their best. I think it rivals what they did in 1.0 from almost every angle. Musically, I found the last set of the last night a little disappointing, but I was exhausted, too, so I really don't think I could have survived a monster YEM at the end of it all. I just didn't have anything left in the tank for something that big.

I don't have expectations of 30+ minute jams around every corner. Perhaps I'm part of the problem. I get restless. I know I've said this before, but I fucking hate every Drums>Space segment of every Dead show post 1979. I'm not a huge fan of all the ambient shit from Phish 2.0 (or even summer 2000) either.

I love free-form improvisation, but I can't expect that every night. Phish is playing fucking well right now. Listen to Monkey Man! Totally unexpected and yet, torn to shreds. Fucking brilliant! Listen to Peaches. They clearly rehearsed that one for us!!

I just don't know how anybody could complain about the state of Phish after they put together a weekend as epic as SBIX. Do you want the Bozeman Tweezer every night? How many Bozeman Tweezers do you think a band has in them? Are they past their prime? Maybe. Are they swinging for the fences anyway? IMO, yes. They are kicking ass and taking names.

Enjoy it while it lasts, phanners. This is the good stuff.

Something's happening.

[rowjimmy]

ikki lays it out
Phish has long been a mirror
which begs the question:

If we're judging Phish
harshly, aren't we condemning
our collective selves?

If Phish crowds became
quiet, sit-down, listeners
what would Phish become?

[WhatstheUse?]

Ramsay - I do not "love the state of this band."  I accept the state of this band and make the best of it.


FWIW, I don't think the fanbase has a single thing to do with how Phish is playing right now. I think they are playing exactly how THEY want to play.  Trey is just sober and completely ADD.  He wants the rawk and then he wants to move on to the next song. It's unfortunate that is not what we want.

I also think it's a bunch of bullshit that people claim the current fanbase doesn't have patience for explorative jams, and that is the reason phish isn't doing it.  I don't see that at all.