some thoughts

[sophist]

I would argue that when on stage (especially in the size arenas/sheds that phish is playing)  the amount of "chatter" going on has little effect on the band.

You have tons of monitors blowing in your face.  Can you really notice if a crowd is being chatty during the middle of a song?  Sure, you notice when there are crowd uproars, and you probably notice if the crowd becomes near silent, but I doubt that crowd "chatter" or screwing around is somehting that the band takes much notice of.

Could be wrong though, I sure as hell have never played on a stage the size they have @ the decibel levels they are putting out.  It just seems unlikely they can hear much other than themselves when on stage.

The biggest crowd I have ever played for was 250 people.  It was for my youth church band.  We played Christian rock.  I played bass.  We had a light show and a pull down projection screen with the stage set up.  When it got quite I could hear things yelled at me.  No matter how loud or quite I could look out into the crowd and read faces.  I think with Phish it's no different.  They can see the crowd.  From the front of the stage you can see how people are behind the stage, and during the NYE run I observed a lot of the crowd from our spot behind the stage. 

The band knows whats up with the crowd.  They can see it and hear it at times. 

[WhatstheUse?]

I would argue that when on stage (especially in the size arenas/sheds that phish is playing)  the amount of "chatter" going on has little effect on the band.

You have tons of monitors blowing in your face.  Can you really notice if a crowd is being chatty during the middle of a song?  Sure, you notice when there are crowd uproars, and you probably notice if the crowd becomes near silent, but I doubt that crowd "chatter" or screwing around is somehting that the band takes much notice of.

Could be wrong though, I sure as hell have never played on a stage the size they have @ the decibel levels they are putting out.  It just seems unlikely they can hear much other than themselves when on stage.

Hearing is but one sense, and what I'm talking about is something more intangible like a feeling or vibe, tapping into that is what it's all about right?

Indeed.  And I agree w/ you on that. When the audience is feeling it and the energy is high (i.e. the Greek Theatre)  the band can feel it, and feed off of it.

[UncleEbinezer]

Does any of thes really matter? If you don't like what they are doing just stop listening and fretting. Just use this newfound free time to check out a new band or an old band you'd forgotten about. But please don't waste your valuable time dicking around with Phish if you're not into what's going on.

Simply my though process.

While I understand your point, you've been on this board a while to know that this is a discussion board.  Just sayin'. 

I actually feel like this thread is showing some Mat-ure pauging.

[sophist]

TA: Today what I do is—I do this every night we play—I have a little quiet moment where I picture some guy having a fight with his girlfriend, getting into his car—the battery's dead—then he gets to the parking lot and it's full. Meets up with his friends. Comes into the show. I try to picture this one person having their own experience, and I picture them way in the back of the room. And I try to remember how insignificant my experience is, and how people's experiences with music are their own thing. We put it out there, and if it's of service to someone, great, but I try to get away from the idea that it's even starting from us. And when you do that listening-exercise stuff, when I actually get into a moment where I'm only listening, I find that the music gets so much... beyond us. And I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience. It always feels more resonant if I can get my hands off it. If all four of us were here, they'd all be saying the same thing. It's great as long as you listen to anybody but yourself. Anything but yourself.

from here

That's a very recent interview.  I'm on point here.  He/They are watching and reacting.  They took one of the crucial tools of power from the Dead, which was/is playing the space, not just the music. 

[UncleEbinezer]

TA: Today what I do is—I do this every night we play—I have a little quiet moment where I picture some guy having a fight with his girlfriend, getting into his car—the battery's dead—then he gets to the parking lot and it's full. Meets up with his friends. Comes into the show. I try to picture this one person having their own experience, and I picture them way in the back of the room. And I try to remember how insignificant my experience is, and how people's experiences with music are their own thing. We put it out there, and if it's of service to someone, great, but I try to get away from the idea that it's even starting from us. And when you do that listening-exercise stuff, when I actually get into a moment where I'm only listening, I find that the music gets so much... beyond us. And I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience. It always feels more resonant if I can get my hands off it. If all four of us were here, they'd all be saying the same thing. It's great as long as you listen to anybody but yourself. Anything but yourself.

from here

That's a very recent interview.  I'm on point here.  He/They are watching and reacting.  They took one of the crucial tools of power from the Dead, which was/is playing the space, not just the music.

Well there you have it.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

That was a very good read.

[qop24]

Lots of good points made in here so far. I feel like I half agree with Gumbo's first post, but I'm very much with WTU in that I believe that Phish is playing about how they want to right now and that it isn't totally a reaction to the crowd (or reaction to the crowd reaction if that makes sense). Pie-Guy hit the nail on the head a couple of weeks ago, imo, when he made that post about Trey entering a manic phase and how you can really see it come through in his playing, which also adds the sense of urgency and distraction that seems to hold Trey back. (Sorry I'm too lazy to go find his post, but I think that's an accurate paraphrasing).

I'm right with Sophist on his take on the scene/drug use/etc. as there definitely is a much stronger ADD rave fest these days (granted I never saw 1.0 but from hearing stories, seeing videos, and simply hearing the music I would believe it). I think a lot of the criticism of the younger side of the crowd can be attributed to a simple fact: short, punching, rawk versions of songs are way more accessible to a wider audience (at least at first....) which is why the kidz eat up the same C&P week after week. Once they see a bunch of shows, I guarantee they will want more, especially as they begin to listen to more and more older material, and see what they are capable of. It isn't purely a fault of the TV/ADD generation's mental abilities, I think it has more to do with the fact that a huge wave of people just now got turned on to phish, and they are listening to new stuff and going backwards.

I, for one, am guilty of this. I didn't really get into phish until a couple of months after Coventry, when I started listening to the shit out of NYE '95. I knew to some extent what they were capable of before I saw my first show (cville '09) but it was when I saw that show that it all blew up for me. I went from there to Miami for NYE, where it was so obvious to me that those were the best shows EVAH!  :roll: 23 shows later, and after listening to older shows extensively/intensively over the past couple of years, I fully understand both sides of the coin here. I am cursed because I never was able to see any old shows, but at the same time, I'm blessed because I am able to go into the 3.0 era with a totally open mind, while very much appreciating and loving (and obviously preferring) their older shows. I'm not saying a bunch of you guys are closed minded, I'm just saying that working backwards down the number line (sorry I had to) gives a very different perspective, and hopefully a significant group of the younger crowd can do what I did so we don't have to keep being distracted at shows by people talking and chucking glowsticks at each other when the band starts doing what we actually want them to.




eta: As a side note, I like how civil and "mat-ure" this thread has been so far - I know I bitch a lot about incessant hating, but it's only because I know that we can have much better conversations, such as this one.

[runawayjimbo]

I actually feel like this thread is showing some Mat-ure pauging.

What?! Piss of Uncle Eb! I'm really getting sick of your "Look at us! We can agree to disagree so civilly" fluffing.
:wink:

[UncleEbinezer]

I actually feel like this thread is showing some Mat-ure pauging.

What?! Piss of Uncle Eb! I'm really getting sick of your "Look at us! We can agree to disagree so civilly" fluffing.
:wink:

I was actually trying to piss people off with my "we are the world" crap. 



:wink:

[twatts]

I didn't really get into phish until a couple of months after Coventry, when I started listening to the shit out of NYE '95.

For me, this one line sums up the entire thread.  Nothing against qop, or against anybody here per se...  Its just that different people are going to view the band differently. 

In this particular case, we get a response from a Non-1.0er, who didn't start until after Coventry, and first "learned" with 12/31/95...  His opinion will differ great from someone like myself who was 15 row DFC at that show...  I'm not discounting qop's opinion, I'm just pointing out that everyone's perspective will be different, for reasons that have nothing to do with the Band.

Also, we're talking about a Band that has purposely re-invented itself over the years.  In some cases, its hasn't always been for the best (96 imo), but they were able to learn from those experiences and incorporate those lessons in their future re-inventions.  In this case, I think the Band is more interested in getting back to having fun, rather than destroying the world...


I'll go back to lurking now...

Terry

[susep]

I think people have always been critical of the band, in fact I think it's part of what makes Phish fans so unique, in that we would pay such careful attention to the music and dissect it with such precision.

What I think is different with 3.0 is that there seems to be this divide and reconciling the two camps is nearly impossible.  It's almost like politics where viewpoints are so divergent that you have to wonder if there even is such a thing as objective reality.  On one hand you've got guys like Miner who claim that the band is "at the top of their game" and at a new creative peak and then you've got the "haters" who think that Phish has become just what they had always feared, a novelty act and caricature of their former selves.  Of course the truth is probably somewhere in the middle but it's difficult for me to understand how people can hear the music so differently.  When Miner ways that the IX Gin was a "huge" version I'm just left scratching my head, cause all I heard was the usual rawk peak.   

Personally I think I'm on the hater side of the spectrum, but can still enjoy Phish when they bring it, which is unfortunately IMO is not as often as they phone it in these days. 

I will say that there may be something larger going on here than just Phish and their audience.  Another thing I think is unique to the Phish scene, or any scene that has its roots in psychedelic use, is that it is reflection of something much deeper.  That is, a scene like Phish mirrors the current state of society, or beyond that the evolution of human consciousness, in ways that a normal rock show does not.  And when we really look at ourselves, what is the state of human consciousness these days?  From my view it ain't pretty, we are distracted, confused and ultimately a reckless and careless lot.  So that's what you get a Phish show too, a bunch of kids that are there to get wasted and "rage" and don't really have the patience for a truly deep and meaningful experience.  So in the respect that a Phish show is kind of a microcosm of where humanity is at right now, so too is the music a reflection of what's going on in the crowd. 

I dunno, you know that feeling you had when you were young that music or psychedelics could really change the world for the better?  In a lot of ways I think that what we are seeing is the death of that (again, this all happened before to our parents in the late 60s and early 70s), and if there is any real "hate" perhaps that's where it really comes from.

epoch.

[anthrax]

I accept the state of this band and make the best of it.

This is exactly why you have such a good time at the shows.  I'm with you 100%. 

[sunrisevt]

TA: Today what I do is—I do this every night we play—I have a little quiet moment where I picture some guy having a fight with his girlfriend, getting into his car—the battery's dead—then he gets to the parking lot and it's full. Meets up with his friends. Comes into the show. I try to picture this one person having their own experience, and I picture them way in the back of the room. And I try to remember how insignificant my experience is, and how people's experiences with music are their own thing. We put it out there, and if it's of service to someone, great, but I try to get away from the idea that it's even starting from us. And when you do that listening-exercise stuff, when I actually get into a moment where I'm only listening, I find that the music gets so much... beyond us. And I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience. It always feels more resonant if I can get my hands off it. If all four of us were here, they'd all be saying the same thing. It's great as long as you listen to anybody but yourself. Anything but yourself.

from here

I also find this line very telling--it appears immediately after the quotation sophist posted above:

TA: Right. It's when I start applying my own fucked-up perspective to a show—so I had a bad day, whatever—that I start adding judgment to it. Or I play something and start judging what I'm playing. It's just like that, walking around in life, that's true! How often do I find myself walking around and being aware of my surroundings and not having some fucked-up internal dialogue in my head that never ends?

[batleon]

Just thought I'd chime in as a lurker and a 3.0er, granted one who is probably above the age of your average 3.0er (born 1979)

I did not discover Phish until 2006.  I frequented the DMB boards for years but was disillusioned with their sound at the time and eager to find something else.  I believe the NYE '95 and Island Tour releases were around this time because a lot of people were talking about them and I decided to check them out.  I'm not going to say there was some big revelation - Phish is an acquired taste.  Nonetheless it was a taste I acquired over the course of that year.  However this was a major bummer for me - Phish was gone and I'd missed my chance to see them.  I held out hope for a reunion.  And you better believe I was excited when that reunion materialized and when I finally had my chance to see them live for the first time.  And for a few shows that was all I needed.  Just to see them was something special.

But the novelty started to wear off.  After Providence (my 3rd show) last year I was left feeling a little underwhelmed.  The Worcester shows left me feeling the same - they had their moments, but I had expected more.  It was great to see them but I just wasn't getting what I wanted.  They weren't the same band I'd spent years listening to on tape.  When the tour was announced this year I just wasn't motivated to take the time and money to get to a show.  And from what I've seen of setlists and read of reviews, I don't regret it.  This just isn't the Phish I'm looking for.  I'm sure I'll see them again at some point because no doubt they still sound good and a Phish show is a good time.  But I'm just not feeling it as much as I'd hoped I would.

[runawayjimbo]

They weren't the same band I'd spent years listening to on tape.

All three of them? Beat it, HATER!

[twatts]

DMB

DMB went to crap once they got too big for Trax...

Terry