9/11> a discussion

[sls.stormyrider]

If you say something loud enough, and often enough, then it becomes true.

[tet]

Anyway it pisses me off when I hear Republican talking points repeated by folks that I know are intelligent and thoughtful, it just goes to show how much influence the media has on our perception of things. 

yeah, that damn conservative media...  oh wait..    :-D

[flow00]

This debate is about as childish as I've allowed myself to get for a long time.  If you believe a few politicians orchestrated an attack on their own country (despite mounting evidence that terrorists were involved) to justify a war for OIL, then go on and believe what you will. Whatever. Ikki, all I'm saying is the argument that oil was the reason for the war is naive and childish. Continue to see the world in black and white, but I think it's useless. I am NOT a Republican, and I totally disagree with the invasion of Iraq. My brother spent a year in Iraq fighting a war he couldn't understand. I spent everyday afraid he would die. I greive every time an Iraqi or American dies in Iraq. I respect your opinions. In a democracy, we choose our fate by our own choices. If you want to believe that "They do not care about the state of the American economy at large, but rather they care about their own bottom line (i.e. record profits for the oil industry)," then show me the profits Bush and company are making on oil that you think are pushing them so far over the edge that they are willing to kill thousands of innocent people. Give me a break. The Bush administration may be filled with naive thugs, but it's SO simple minded to say it's all because of oil. Bush and his people have enough money to abstain from conspiring to deceive the American people just to launch a war for some stock dividends. I agree we were deceived. But to suggest the deception was based solely on oil profits is so laughable that I can't believe I am getting involved in this debate. Wake me up when someone has something enlightening to say.

[susep]

Again, how does a group of government insiders benefit from crashing planes into symbols of capalitsm and killing innocent Americans just to justify a war in the middle east for oil?

Early Sept.01
The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) later announces that they are investigating the trading of shares of 38 companies in the days just before 9/11. The San Francisco Chronicle reports that the New York Stock Exchange sees "unusually heavy trading in airline and related stocks several days before the attacks." All 38 companies logically stand to be heavily affected by the attacks. They include parent companies of major airlines American, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Southwest, United, and US Airways as well as cruise lines Carnival and Royal Caribbean, aircraft maker Boeing and defense contractor Lockheed Martin. The SEC is also looking into suspicious short selling of numerous insurance company stocks, but, to date, no details of this investigation have been released. [Associated Press, 10/2/2001; San Francisco Chronicle, 10/3/2001]

After 9/11, both the SEC and the Secret Service announce probes into an unusually high volume trade of five-year US Treasury note purchases around this time. These transactions include a single $5 billion trade. The Wall Street Journal explains: "Five-year Treasury notes are among the best investments in the event of a world crisis, especially one that hits the US. The notes are prized for their safety and their backing by the US government, and usually rally when investors flee riskier investments, such as stocks." The value of these notes has risen sharply since the events of September 11. The article also points out that with these notes, "tracks would be hard to spot." [Wall Street Journal, 10/2/2001]

Numerous other overseas investigations into insider trading before 9/11 are later established. There are investigations in Belgium, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Monte Carlo, Cyprus, and other countries. There are particularly strong suspicions British markets are manipulated. Italy will later investigate suspicious share movements on the day of the attack, as well as the previous day. Japan will also look into the trading of futures contracts. [Fox News, 9/22/2001; CNN, 9/24/2001; BBC, 9/18/2001] The British will take just two weeks to conclude that their markets were not manipulated. [American Public Media, 10/17/2001]


German central bank president Ernst Welteke later reports that a study by his bank indicates, "There are ever clearer signs that there were activities on international financial markets that must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge," not only in shares of heavily affected industries such as airlines and insurance companies, but also in gold and oil. [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] His researchers have found "almost irrefutable proof of insider trading." [Miami Herald, 9/24/2001] "If you look at movements in markets before and after the attack, it makes your brow furrow. But it is extremely difficult to really verify it." Nevertheless, he believes that "in one or the other case it will be possible to pinpoint the source." [Fox News, 9/22/2001] Welteke reports "a fundamentally inexplicable rise" in oil prices before the attacks [Miami Herald, 9/24/2001] and then a further rise of 13 percent the day after the attacks. Gold rises nonstop for days after the attacks. [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001]

There is a sharp increase in short selling of the stocks of American and United Airlines on the New York Stock Exchange prior to 9/11. A short sell is a bet that a particular stock will drop. There is an increase of 40 percent of short selling over the previous month for these two airlines, compared to an 11 percent increase for other big airlines and one percent for the exchange overall. A significant profit is to be made: United stock drops 43 percent and American drops 39 percent the first day the market reopens after the attack. Short selling of Munich Re, the world's largest reinsurer, is also later noted by German investigators. Inquiries into short selling millions of Munich Re shares are made in France days before the attacks. [Reuters, 9/20/2001; San Francisco Chronicle, 9/22/2001] Munich Re stock will plummet after the attacks, as they claim the attacks will cost them $2 billion. [Dow Jones Business News, 9/20/2001] There is also suspicious trading activity involving reinsurers Swiss Reinsurance and AXA. These trades are especially curious because the insurance sector "is one of the brightest spots in a very difficult market" at this time. [Los Angeles Times, 9/19/2001] There is also a short spike on Dutch airline KLM stock three to seven days before 9/11, reaching historically unprecedented levels. [USA Today, 9/26/2001]

If money is the incentive, don't you think the insiders would have anticipated an economic downturn as Americans believe they are under attack by religious fanatics? You think those people are so ruthless that they'd kill thousands of Americans for OIL?

Yes they would, they've topped that already by killing tens of thousands of innoncent Afghani's and Iraqi's.  

[flow00]

I guess I am naive. Everyone but me was involved in the conspiracy.

[shoreline99]

I guess I am naive. Everyone but me was involved in the conspiracy.

amen, bro.

[tet]

this thread needs more b00bs, threadjacking...

[flow00]

 :lol:

[susep]

If you want to believe that "They do not care about the state of the American economy at large, but rather they care about their own bottom line (i.e. record profits for the oil industry)," then show me the profits Bush and company are making on oil that you think are pushing them so far over the edge that they are willing to kill thousands of innocent people.

I know Haliburton and its subsidiaries make hundreds of millions off the war>also defense conglemorates like The Carlyle Group(Bush Sr. is a high ranking member) cash out.

Give me a break. The Bush administration may be filled with naive thugs, but it's SO simple minded to say it's all because of oil. Bush and his people have enough money to abstain from conspiring to deceive the American people just to launch a war for some stock dividends.

Why do you think we're in the middle east?

[tet]

Why do you think we're in the middle east?

because Saddam tried to kill Shrub's daddy...  not some vast conspiracy.   

[susep]

Why do you think we're in the middle east?

because Saddam tried to kill Shrub's daddy...  not some vast conspiracy.   

Because Iraq is in the top 5 for oil reserves.
If Iraq was the leading exporter of tea would we invade?

[jephrey]

Early Sept.01
The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) later announces that they are investigating the trading of shares of 38 companies in the days just before 9/11. The San Francisco Chronicle reports that the New York Stock Exchange sees "unusually heavy trading in airline and related stocks several days before the attacks." All 38 companies logically stand to be heavily affected by the attacks. They include parent companies of major airlines American, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Southwest, United, and US Airways as well as cruise lines Carnival and Royal Caribbean, aircraft maker Boeing and defense contractor Lockheed Martin. The SEC is also looking into suspicious short selling of numerous insurance company stocks, but, to date, no details of this investigation have been released. [Associated Press, 10/2/2001; San Francisco Chronicle, 10/3/2001]

After 9/11, both the SEC and the Secret Service announce probes into an unusually high volume trade of five-year US Treasury note purchases around this time. These transactions include a single $5 billion trade. The Wall Street Journal explains: "Five-year Treasury notes are among the best investments in the event of a world crisis, especially one that hits the US. The notes are prized for their safety and their backing by the US government, and usually rally when investors flee riskier investments, such as stocks." The value of these notes has risen sharply since the events of September 11. The article also points out that with these notes, "tracks would be hard to spot." [Wall Street Journal, 10/2/2001]

Numerous other overseas investigations into insider trading before 9/11 are later established. There are investigations in Belgium, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Monte Carlo, Cyprus, and other countries. There are particularly strong suspicions British markets are manipulated. Italy will later investigate suspicious share movements on the day of the attack, as well as the previous day. Japan will also look into the trading of futures contracts. [Fox News, 9/22/2001; CNN, 9/24/2001; BBC, 9/18/2001] The British will take just two weeks to conclude that their markets were not manipulated. [American Public Media, 10/17/2001]


German central bank president Ernst Welteke later reports that a study by his bank indicates, "There are ever clearer signs that there were activities on international financial markets that must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge," not only in shares of heavily affected industries such as airlines and insurance companies, but also in gold and oil. [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] His researchers have found "almost irrefutable proof of insider trading." [Miami Herald, 9/24/2001] "If you look at movements in markets before and after the attack, it makes your brow furrow. But it is extremely difficult to really verify it." Nevertheless, he believes that "in one or the other case it will be possible to pinpoint the source." [Fox News, 9/22/2001] Welteke reports "a fundamentally inexplicable rise" in oil prices before the attacks [Miami Herald, 9/24/2001] and then a further rise of 13 percent the day after the attacks. Gold rises nonstop for days after the attacks. [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001]

There is a sharp increase in short selling of the stocks of American and United Airlines on the New York Stock Exchange prior to 9/11. A short sell is a bet that a particular stock will drop. There is an increase of 40 percent of short selling over the previous month for these two airlines, compared to an 11 percent increase for other big airlines and one percent for the exchange overall. A significant profit is to be made: United stock drops 43 percent and American drops 39 percent the first day the market reopens after the attack. Short selling of Munich Re, the world's largest reinsurer, is also later noted by German investigators. Inquiries into short selling millions of Munich Re shares are made in France days before the attacks. [Reuters, 9/20/2001; San Francisco Chronicle, 9/22/2001] Munich Re stock will plummet after the attacks, as they claim the attacks will cost them $2 billion. [Dow Jones Business News, 9/20/2001] There is also suspicious trading activity involving reinsurers Swiss Reinsurance and AXA. These trades are especially curious because the insurance sector "is one of the brightest spots in a very difficult market" at this time. [Los Angeles Times, 9/19/2001] There is also a short spike on Dutch airline KLM stock three to seven days before 9/11, reaching historically unprecedented levels. [USA Today, 9/26/2001]

There is no proof here.  In addition, a majority of these things could have happened on any business day.  Plus, how many people that voted for the war really made out on these things?  Go where the money did and there's your man.  I don't see it.

Haliburton is going to make money no matter who starts a war.  How long has Bush Sr. been a ranking member of Haliburton?  Maybe it was just a good investment?  Can't anyone assume a logical explanation?  Does it have to be our evil administration?

Why do you think we're in the middle east?

Maybe not directed at me, but I think that Bushie believes in what he is doing.  I believe his real purpose is to spread democracy and remove the tyrant Saddam.  He got there in a poor fashion, by talking up WMD and terrorism ties (although I believe Iraq was harboring terrorists, it's not directly related to 9/11).  And really, I think there was a lot of others also talking up the WMDs to him.  Personally, I think we're in Iraq, because we've wanted a reason to get Saddam out of power, and although the WMDs were sketchy at the time, there was so much time that had passed without full cooperation from Saddam, and there were ties to terrorism (just the guy being a terrorist himself), a case was made to do it.  And a majority of senators voted and we went to war.

But that's just what I think.

Jephrey

[flow00]

I don't pretend to know all the answers. I do respect your opinions. I personally believe the reasons for war were far more complicated than oil. It's hard for me to believe a few wealthy government insiders are so obsessed with money that they risked life behind bars to undertake a tangled conspiracy to justify war. Maybe the neo-conservatives believed they wanted to "stabalize" the middle east by invading the country they believed posed the most risks to America. Maybe they acted like a school bully who felt threatened. Don't forget, even anti-war Democrats opposed an invasion of Iraq because they believed the country would hastily launch WMDs in desperation. For whatever reason, the Bush administration seemed hell bent on believing Iraq was a threat. They WRONGLY deceived the country into believing there was a link to 9/11. We all know that. But it doesn't prove Bush invaded Iraq for oil.

The reason oil prices are reaching record highs is because of supply and demand. Countries like China are demanding more oil than the world is used to. SUV sales in the U.S. are way up. We're consuming more oil than we should. But even the anti-environment Bush is beginning to support the benefits of alternative fuel. I know the nuances make it difficult to villify and hate those in power, but criticism often requires more homework.    

You quote the media often and try to connect the dots. But none of those newspapers you give so much credit to ever suggest a 9/11 conspiracy. Do you think the reporters are also a part of the conspiracy?

[August]

i just took a HUGE hit of the rock and am
scared to death typing in this thread.......    :-o

a

[flow00]

Aug, I was wondering where you were. Take another hit and tell us what you think. You were part of the conspiracy, weren't you?  :-o