Quote from: cactusfan on September 11, 2023, 10:25:18 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on September 09, 2023, 02:35:47 PMWe did our Tour recap episode yesterday for HFPod.
This tour is loaded with great stuff. Arguably the best tour since the return.

Really? Interesting. Good stuff this tour, but '21 smokes it, to my ears.

21 doesn't have the consistency or the frequency of high highs. Fishman is playing stronger than he has in a while and he's never actually slouched. Page and Trey are locking in creatively more and more too.

Lately during work I've been alternating between Summer '21 and Summer '23 (Play a '21 show, then a '23...). '21 is great, but '23 blows it outta the water!!!

To my ears, the jamming in '21 goes much deeper than this summer. A lot of the jams in '23 are nice, to be sure, but feel like they're skimming the surface. Seems like this year was more about first sets. Which resulted in a lot of shows where the tight first sets were better than the second sets with their sometimes long yet often not inspiring jams. The spring tour felt dirtier and more exploratory. I did like a lot of the new songs this summer, though, which often featured the darker, more textural jams I'm liking a lot these days.

I'm not the guy to rattle off dates to demonstrate a point but off the top of my head I'd say, 8/25 and 7/28 are just two of many examples of shows that go pretty hard in the second set.

That said, I don't think it matters which set goes deep and I think the band feels that way too. the traditional structures really don't matter to the band any more beyond the basic set, break, another set, encore.

That said, if they're paying any attention to structure it's showing in how they've put more into encores on this tour. I'm obligated and happy to say that this is great because they had become so rote that I was actively calling for them to be abolished.

I would say there are "higher highs" in 23, but 21 had a much higher volume of excellent jams.

Quote from: rowjimmy on September 12, 2023, 10:34:45 AMThat said, if they're paying any attention to structure it's showing in how they've put more into encores on this tour. I'm obligated and happy to say that this is great because they had become so rote that I was actively calling for them to be abolished.

I miss the old encores though, as I liked to use them to beat the crowds out of the lot after the show. I'm in my car heading home while the wooks are still 'enjoying' Show of Life!

Quote from: mistercharlie on September 12, 2023, 11:40:05 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on September 12, 2023, 10:34:45 AMThat said, if they're paying any attention to structure it's showing in how they've put more into encores on this tour. I'm obligated and happy to say that this is great because they had become so rote that I was actively calling for them to be abolished.

I miss the old encores though, as I liked to use them to beat the crowds out of the lot after the show. I'm in my car heading home while the wooks are still 'enjoying' Show of Life!

Never leave til the lights come up.

Quote from: jedifunk on September 12, 2023, 11:28:15 AMI would say there are "higher highs" in 23, but 21 had a much higher volume of excellent jams.

23 ain't over yet.

Quote from: rowjimmy on September 12, 2023, 01:43:51 PM

Quote from: mistercharlie on September 12, 2023, 11:40:05 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on September 12, 2023, 10:34:45 AMThat said, if they're paying any attention to structure it's showing in how they've put more into encores on this tour. I'm obligated and happy to say that this is great because they had become so rote that I was actively calling for them to be abolished.

I miss the old encores though, as I liked to use them to beat the crowds out of the lot after the show. I'm in my car heading home while the wooks are still 'enjoying' Show of Life!

Never leave til the lights come up.

The only time I've ever left before a    encore was the second 2010 SPAC show when they played Tweeprise for the 4th time in 2 shows.

Quote from: VA $l!m on September 12, 2023, 02:19:35 PM

Quote from: jedifunk on September 12, 2023, 11:28:15 AMI would say there are "higher highs" in 23, but 21 had a much higher volume of excellent jams.

23 ain't over yet.

I tend to disagree with that "higher volume" count Jedi, but I've long known that you and I look for different things in jams.

But I also think the quality of the band is measure in more than excellent jams. remember, this band was great 30 years ago when they barely jammed! My "2023 Summer Slammers" LP playlist which showcases not just 20+min jams or even key micro-jams but also excellent set listing is nearly 25hours long. That's almost eight full shows of must-hear stuff and I didn't even include all of the Derek Trucks sit-in (which I'm gonna go back and remedy).

What a refreshing discussion happening up in here.  

 I did not attend any of the summer shows this year, but I feel like the spring (only saw Hollywood bowl) had some stuff that would contend with '21.  I still feel like n1 deer creek 21 was the best show I've seen since deer creek 2000.  But summer tour had some real fire this year.  I'm gonna say '23 > '21.

Quote from: rowjimmy on September 12, 2023, 04:15:19 PM

Quote from: VA $l!m on September 12, 2023, 02:19:35 PM

Quote from: jedifunk on September 12, 2023, 11:28:15 AMI would say there are "higher highs" in 23, but 21 had a much higher volume of excellent jams.

23 ain't over yet.

I tend to disagree with that "higher volume" count Jedi, but I've long known that you and I look for different things in jams.

But I also think the quality of the band is measure in more than excellent jams. remember, this band was great 30 years ago when they barely jammed! My "2023 Summer Slammers" LP playlist which showcases not just 20+min jams or even key micro-jams but also excellent set listing is nearly 25hours long. That's almost eight full shows of must-hear stuff and I didn't even include all of the Derek Trucks sit-in (which I'm gonna go back and remedy).

This might be what it comes down to for me, too, in that case. My collection of songs from '21 that I can listen to over and over again is vast. I've not found nearly as much in '23. I've still got some shows to check out, but still. I see your point that '23 has consistency and a lot of great, fluid sets, and maybe in that regard it is the better year. But in terms of single tracks, however long, that have floored me, '21 is the clear winner.

I'm in the 2021 camp. Best year of phish I've personally witnessed.

2023 has been great though. I'd say '15, '21 and '23 all have stood out in the "anything could happen at anytime" category.

I think I posted this elsewhere but it is quite amazing how there was four to six years or so of 3.0/4.0 that had VERY little jamming. There would be a couple that broke through, but I didn't have hopes of 15+ min jams for awhile there... and first set jams were practically non-existent.

Not anymore. Tons of first set jams, long jams and jams in unexpected songs. I've seen 3/4 of the only jammed out fluffheads ever in the past few years. The last two versions of MFMF had abnormal type-II jams. The list goes on....

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on September 12, 2023, 07:45:35 PM2023 has been great though. I'd say '15, '21 and '23 all have stood out in the "anything could happen at anytime" category.

Those are definitely the years that stand out in my mind too. It felt like after Fare Thee Well Trey was amped to start jamming again and I was hoping that upward momentum would continue, and it did to a degree, but '15 was the turning point.

^ agreed. I almost forgot the Baker's Dozen happened in 2017. That was a pretty special couple of weeks in Phishtory as well. The rest of that year, however, escapes me.