week4paug.net

Well, here we are just at the passing of the latest Phish festival.  Anything different from F8?  Kinda not really.  But, certain things have come to light which I just can't sit on without getting other interweb Phish elitists thoughts on.

First, we have the current state of the band.  I am not knocking the performance, because they are playing well.  Certain things have come to be expected and must be taken at face value, such as the "I-fucked-up-so-many-times-that-they-became-new-arrangements" versions of Gotta Jibboo and Mike's Song, the ripcord and/or fhorsing of the segues, etc.  But on the other hand, there are some fucking monumental versions of songs with great fucking playing.

From my limited exposure to this summer, I count the following as worthy of repeated listenings:  6/1 Tweezer, Twist, and Number Line, 6/3 DWD, 6/8 Weekapaug > Whats The Use? > Theme, 6/11 Wilson > Sand, etc.


Anyway, point being, there are good, and bad things.  Now, the focus of this post is that I believe the band to be in tune with the majority of the audience at the shows: young kids, inexperienced with Phish who want to party.


A few weeks ago at work, these 2 kids who I figured couldn't be more than 16 or 17 were in the store, messing around on guitars together, trying to sing and play "Free".  I entered the conversation with my comment about being able to buy Trey's guitars from Paul for $25,000.  We get talking, and kid 2 is like "How many times have you seen Phish?  Were you at SPAC last year?" and I'm like "uhh, I don't know, and yeah I was at both."  He goes "I went to the 1st one, it was awesome, it was the first time I saw them." 

So, I'm trying to remember what they played, and kid 2 is like "They played Suzy, Prince Caspian...  and Character Zero!  Oh, and they played Sample In a Jar too!  Those were incredible!!!"   Meanwhile, my head starts shaking in disappointment, and then Kid 1 comes in with "Yeah, it was the Rock and Roll, Page's new song, the double Tweeprise...." and I'm like "Oh yeah, with Gin, and Fluffhead..."

Anyway, so it turns out Kid 1 has seen 3.0 like a shitload of times.  He's way younger than me.  We get talking, and I'm asking him about all these old shows, if he's ever heard Big Cypress, etc etc and he asks me "Well, what do you think about them now?" to which I reply "Well..........  its complicated.  They're obviously having a blast, and thats awesome, they're playing well, Trey is sober, they're enjoying themselves on stage, and that matters the most.  But... I really wish they would jam more.  The jamming that they do do is great, Darien was evidence of that, but.... they need to push 15 mins more often."

And so I'm like "Okay, well whats your favorite period?"  And hes like "Probably '97-'98...  I like the funk."  I get a big grin, and go "YES, with the REAL version of Ghost, with the whammy loops" and he's like "Yeah theres a ton of incredible shows, they were doing something amazing almost every night.  The show from Rochester in '97.... and the big Runaway Jim, the Hampton release..." and I'm like "OKay, you get it."

But then he's like "But I really like what they're doing now."   And I'm stunned. 

And then I read on one of the Superball show review pages that some kid turned to a nearby person and exclaimed, with great exuberance "THIS IS SUCH A SICK JAM!!!!" when Trey was doing the looping opening to Silent In The Morning.  Couple this with the person I encountered who did basically the same thing during Whats The Use? at Darien....

...and we get a band who is playing to their enraptured, yet uneducated and ignorant audience.  They're playing to the kids who want to hear rawk songs, who want to be able to claim they played the best version of Sample In A Jar, and who want to throw glow sticks.  These kids care nothing for big, epic jams, and don't know the difference between what they're experiencing, which in their minds is an objectively amazing experience, and what had happened before. 


So, Phish can basically phone it in with little effort, and be hailed as gods and the saviors of everything "hip" and groovy.  Just like the horde of hoola-hooping tweeners at Darien who couldn't answer "46 Days" when I had a total brainfart at the beginning of that song and asked them for help.


So, I don't know......  what do you guys think?  I mean, F8 had like zero big jamming, although the version of Piper -> JAM from that is absolutely awesome, but here we get 7 sets of Phish without anything remotely experimental, aside from the Storage Jam which I have yet to hear, as well as a festival with no YEM or Slave.......


Are we in for a less-jammed Phish, due to the audience demographics?  I think its the case.  I'm hoping they're going on an early-90's trajectory still, of no big jams but very incredible playing, like how basically until 1994 there was never any non-composed song that would top 13-14 mins with any regularity (by composed song I mean Bowie, YEM, Fluffhead, etc).  It was only Summer '94 when Tweezer began its lengthening, followed by Mike's Song in '95, and then DWD, Gin and Tweezer in '96.....



So, anyway...  does Phish take the audience make-up into account?  Can that be levied as an adequate explanation? 

I'm checkin' 'em out
I've got it figured out
There's some good points
- some bad points
But it all works out
- I'm just a little freaked out


and just a side note, which has nothing to do with your thesis, November '94 and 1995 would argue that the following statement is slightly off:

QuoteIt was only Summer '94 when Tweezer began its lengthening, followed by Mike's Song in '95, and then DWD, Gin and Tweezer in '96.....

TLDR

Honestly, that's a lot of words. I mean, it's an essay for fuck's sake.

Phish is playing what they want to play to people who want to see them.

This weekend was really good. The Tweezer, while short, was freaking great. The SIHTOS was great. The Jam to open a set was unexpected and great. Was any of it 30 minutes of raw improvisation... actually, yes... there was that, too.

Point being, I don't really think they are "playing to the young crowd." They are playing what they want to play.

The theories I keep hearing on here that they would sell more tickets if they jammed more are unfounded, imo. They are selling as many tickets as they are going to sell in this market.

I really doubt they're pandering to the audience, I think this is just the way they want to play now. If they were just trying to bilk the lowest common denominator out of some $$$, I don't think they'd be as genuinely happy as they seem up there. Plus, drugged-up noobs have no problem with long jams either, they just tend to like whatever the band plays - jamming certainly didn't stop them from growing their fan base in the '90s.

My philosophy on the whole thing is that as long as they play the way they want to play, they'll stay happy and keep making music for a long time to come, and eventually that will probably include more jamming.

Quote from: Superfreakie on July 05, 2011, 10:17:53 PM
I'm checkin' 'em out
I've got it figured out
There's some good points
- some bad points
But it all works out
- I'm just a little freaked out

Well Played.

Agreed with PG. The Tweezer was sick. Ghost however, while it was good I was happy to dance to it while it lasted, it just seemed like Trey had no clue what to do with it. and that seems to be the problem. When the crowd isn't there it doesn't matter if he knows what he's doing, he is cool with just fucking around and you get the Tech rehearsal Waves. When the crowd is there, on the other hand, I think he's not willing to push through until they hit the groove we're all waiting for. It's lacking direction and it's ripcord time..... I dunno. They were definitely trying hard at Light to make it go somewhere. IT just isn't coming easy...

I don't really think they're just playing to the n00bs though.

Kind Old Hippie > Stupid Kid > Grumpy Old Man > Surprise > Deep Thoughts > Ghost

There's your Jam...

Terry

Wow, some really good discussion happening here. I feel like Everybody has a good point to make, and it all sounds logical, but I find myself agreeing with Gumbo on the majority of it. I feel like it's hard not to pander to some kind of really balls-out, glowstick tossing rawk piques. I mean, when I play shows with my band, and I feel like we're losing people, I always want to try and change it up. That being said, I wish they'd just push through the uncomfortable areas. JPhish is nailing it when he says that they were trying hard at Light, but IT just isn't coming. Troof. PG, I agree with you on most everything, but do think that they try to play to energies in the crowd. Maybe not n00bs specifically, but just the overall energy.

As for the

Quote from: spaced on July 05, 2011, 10:32:08 PM
drugged-up noobs have no problem with long jams either, they just tend to like whatever the band plays - jamming certainly didn't stop them from growing their fan base in the '90s.

This is the biggest difference of opinion for me in this thread thus far. This isn't the 90's. They aren't an indie band trying to build a fan base. The 90's was about building and growing that fan base. The n00bs don't like the jamz - at least not the true jams from what I can tell. Whenever the guys try to take it out, I see all these kids that were raging so hard, being so psyched, etc. taking piss breaks, texting, and getting beer... mind blowing. This obviously isn't ALL of the n00bs, but definitely a good number.

Quote from: PIE-GUY on July 05, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
Point being, I don't really think they are "playing to the young crowd." They are playing what they want to play.

The theories I keep hearing on here that they would sell more tickets if they jammed more are unfounded, imo. They are selling as many tickets as they are going to sell in this market.

If they are in fact playing what they want and are truly satisfied with the music they are making, I would accept that. I just don't believe that they are. When I listen to this tour, I don't hear them playing with confidence. They sound scared or at least on edge. A song ends and you can feel a sigh of relief cause they made it without falling of the rails too badly.

Then I hear the tech rehearsal and soundcheck and they seem to sync up so effortlessly. They are in control of the jam so they just sit back and let ideas come forth naturally. You saw it in the 1st set on Sunday too (and there have been flashes of it, a la Portsmouth Sand). I just don't get how if they don't want to be playing like this, why they are doing it? I really think they want to find that place as much as we want them to, but they just don't have that comfort level in front of an audience right now. And like I said somewhere else, I don't want them to play like they did in '94 or '97; I want them to play like they did in that Waves.

If they are in full control of what they are doing, then I guess I'll have to live with the fact that I have to find some other avenue for my obsessions. But until I'm sure, I'll keep showing up. Also, faux said kinda the same thing and I don't know how to live in a world where he's right.

And, Gumbo, I really am psyched to read this over the next couple of days.
:beers:

Agreed about Trey the being uncomfortable. Night one I felt like the Simple made Trey uncomfortable and he wasn't happy with what came out of it, tried to blow it off with Bug and everything after that was sub-par. Just sounding off. Less than 7 min Week4paug says to me that things aren't going well. I didn't talk to many people that agreed with me though.  I believe :wtu: said he picked up on it.

I haven't listened back yet though, maybe I was just high and reading too much into it. Show def went downhill for me after Bug.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 05, 2011, 10:06:12 PM


So, I don't know......  what do you guys think?  I mean, F8 had like zero big jamming, although the version of Piper -> JAM from that is absolutely awesome, but here we get 7 sets of Phish without anything remotely experimental, aside from the Storage Jam which I have yet to hear, as well as a festival with no YEM or Slave.......

go listen to the storage jam

Quote from: aphineday on July 05, 2011, 11:21:22 PM
As for the

Quote from: spaced on July 05, 2011, 10:32:08 PM
drugged-up noobs have no problem with long jams either, they just tend to like whatever the band plays - jamming certainly didn't stop them from growing their fan base in the '90s.

This is the biggest difference of opinion for me in this thread thus far. This isn't the 90's. They aren't an indie band trying to build a fan base. The 90's was about building and growing that fan base. The n00bs don't like the jamz - at least not the true jams from what I can tell. Whenever the guys try to take it out, I see all these kids that were raging so hard, being so psyched, etc. taking piss breaks, texting, and getting beer... mind blowing. This obviously isn't ALL of the n00bs, but definitely a good number.

I don't totally disagree, but I think you have to distinguish between different types of people. The sort of people that Gumbo was describing were more what I was thinking of. They're the guys who genuinely like the band a lot, but have a pretty uncritical way of looking at things. I think what I said holds true for them. Then you have the really casual types who don't know many songs and just decided to come along cuz the circus was in town. Those people would definitely rather hear a rawk peak 46 Days than a tripped out 20 min. Ghost, but my sense is that if the band were going to pander, they wouldn't be pandering to those folks, they'd be pandering to the sorts of people Gumbo described.

ETA: just to clarify, those "uncritical fan" types wouldn't have a problem with jams, IMO.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 05, 2011, 11:46:42 PM
If they are in fact playing what they want and are truly satisfied with the music they are making, I would accept that. I just don't believe that they are. When I listen to this tour, I don't hear them playing with confidence. They sound scared or at least on edge. A song ends and you can feel a sigh of relief cause they made it without falling of the rails too badly.

Then I hear the tech rehearsal and soundcheck and they seem to sync up so effortlessly. They are in control of the jam so they just sit back and let ideas come forth naturally. You saw it in the 1st set on Sunday too (and there have been flashes of it, a la Portsmouth Sand). I just don't get how if they don't want to be playing like this, why they are doing it? I really think they want to find that place as much as we want them to, but they just don't have that comfort level in front of an audience right now.

This to me is interesting. Do you think they've improved in terms of confidence since '09? It sure sounds to me like they have, but the style hasn't changed AT ALL, it just sounds to me like they're refining the same thing they've been doing all 3.0 - shorter jams, more songs per set, etc. If they were gradually jamming more as they got more confident, it would make me think that jamming more was the goal, but things haven't really changed even though they've gotten more in-sync with each other.

Quote from: spaced on July 06, 2011, 12:28:12 AM

Quote from: aphineday on July 05, 2011, 11:21:22 PM
As for the

Quote from: spaced on July 05, 2011, 10:32:08 PM
drugged-up noobs have no problem with long jams either, they just tend to like whatever the band plays - jamming certainly didn't stop them from growing their fan base in the '90s.

This is the biggest difference of opinion for me in this thread thus far. This isn't the 90's. They aren't an indie band trying to build a fan base. The 90's was about building and growing that fan base. The n00bs don't like the jamz - at least not the true jams from what I can tell. Whenever the guys try to take it out, I see all these kids that were raging so hard, being so psyched, etc. taking piss breaks, texting, and getting beer... mind blowing. This obviously isn't ALL of the n00bs, but definitely a good number.

I don't totally disagree, but I think you have to distinguish between different types of people. The sort of people that Gumbo was describing were more what I was thinking of. They're the guys who genuinely like the band a lot, but have a pretty uncritical way of looking at things. I think what I said holds true for them. Then you have the really casual types who don't know many songs and just decided to come along cuz the circus was in town. Those people would definitely rather hear a rawk peak 46 Days than a tripped out 20 min. Ghost, but my sense is that if the band were going to pander, they wouldn't be pandering to those folks, they'd be pandering to the sorts of people Gumbo described.

ETA: just to clarify, those "uncritical fan" types wouldn't have a problem with jams, IMO.

Okay, I can see that, but I speaking more of an entire crowd dynamic. That was more, and more the feeling I got at Superball anyway, and I guess pandering is a bad word. Maybe what I meant was that it's easy to want to satisfy the "raging peak" crowd ALL the time. Almost seems to me that T is so worried about the next peak, that he doesn't let jamz develop.

riddle me this, riddle me that.....

QuoteMaybe what I meant was that it's easy to want to satisfy the "raging peak" crowd ALL the time. Almost seems to me that T is so worried about the next peak, that he doesn't let jamz develop.

Why can't both levels coexist within the same context.....? a la Chalkdust from IT.....

What would a jam be without some kind of peak?.....

I just don't get these guys. They have the ability to go anywhere they want musically.....ANYWHERE......and they choose this Song>rawk>ambient -> Next song format that is almost (dare I say) almost the same formula that another well known jam band adopted which lead to their creative end as a group.....I feel like we're watching history repeat itself on some levels here.....

I think the demographic and the overall philosophy of the crowd impacts the band's playing directly.  The truth is, people are way more ADD now, and as a result I think the band sees a lack of patience with the crowd when they do take it out there.  I see this night in and night out with each show I see of 3.0 Phish and it also filters over into Panic as well, and it was really apparent to me on my last run of 3.0.  On the first night of Alpharetta, when the DWD left familiar territory the energy in the pit dropped, and so many people looked lost.  I began to hear chatter and people just didn't get that the real magic was about to happen.  This is just evidence that the crowd has changed.  The band can't be psychedelic because the crowd isn't psychedelic.  As crazy as it sounds, when acid was more popular among the fans, it did change how the crowd behaved.  I see far more people doing blow, K, and some sort of mollie derivative at shows now.  I'm not judging, do what you want, but it needs to be said that when you take a drug that makes you social or makes you want to dance, the psychedelic component of the music is going to bore you or seem less interesting.  This is just common sense, it's why mollie isn't flowing at a Godspeed You Black Emperor concert and it is being passed around liberally at raves and Phish shows.  Now, I'm not saying switching drugs is the answer here, it's just an observation I've had with this scene. 

The second night of Alpharetta is case and point of Gumbo's point.  You guys have read my thoughts on that, and that crowd ate it up.  It completely disgusted me that these tepid versions of songs were being celebrated like Christ's birth in the manger.  People were just going ape shit over the setlist.  To me, that says everything.  That the bulk of fans now aren't listening to real Phish, and that they just don't know what this band is capable of at times.  I've made new friends here in Atlanta that are 3.0 generation kids (my age), and the difference in how they view and approach the band astounds me.  I don't think my opinion is in higher regard, but they don't download or seek out old shows.  They only download shows attended.  They have no idea about the 90's.  They approach the music with this philosophy of what was played rather than how it was played.  This is the key difference to me.  People flip out that they played X despite the fact that it was played poorly or has been overplayed.  I think this is a result of how other jam bands approach music. 

The biggest commonality between the Dead and Phish is how they approached music.  The Dead had this vigor where each version could be completely unique and could stand out above other versions, Phish had the same style in the 90's (they still do to a certain degree).  I think it's part of what pulled in a huge influx of Dead fans when Jerry died.  No other jam band has this sort of approach.  I love panic, but differentiation of versions is pointless with them.  There is no epic version or anything that makes a particular night special, it's just a good show or not.  I say the same thing about a lot of other jam bands too.  I think with Phish gone from August '04 - March '09, a few things happened. 

1) There was no longer a band that was notches above everyone else.  The Dead led Phish, and Phish led Panic, Cheese, UM, Moe, Bisco, etc. 
2) The proliferation of music festivals and the overlapping of jam band crowds.  There was a time where we had a separation of fans.  Some overlap has always existed, but it's pretty non existent now.  Save for the older fans that have stuck with their tastes. 

examples:
RJ- hates Bisco, doesn't like UM, Moe, Cheese, etc
August- besides the Dead, Phish, and MMW isn't a jam band fan
Jedifunk- only a phish fan
Igbo- Phish, Dead

where as the younger generation (raised on 2.0 and 3.0) seems to like a large portion of jam bands.  I think the increased amount of music festivals directly impacted how these jam bands were playing from having this expanded demographic of fans and simply playing with each other.  How many times have moe, bisco, tribe, UM, or some other band been on the same bill for a festival?  While the bands sound different musically, the approach to a live show is pretty much the same.  2 sets, covers, originals, segues, and some jamming.  It's not a new format, where as Phish took the concept of opening up a song a lot further than the Dead ever did.  Could any Dead fan ever fathomed the Dead opening with a Stones song and stretching it out to almost 20 minutes?  No.  But Phish did do that. 

3) The formatting of jam bands has programmed the inept and docile fanbases.  From taking pages out of Phish and the Dead's playbook, other bands follow suite with this concept of crazy covers.  I think this is why so many people lose their shit over what is played versus how it is played. 

4) The change from a predominately psychedelic culture to a party culture has widened the demographic.  I think it's fitting to think about the demographics of psychedelic drugs.  Far more males use these kind of drugs, and the original cross over into Phish fans being like 99% male, where as now I see shit loads of females at shows implies a lot to me.  That being that psychedelic use is down among fans.  Every show of 3.0 I've hit I have had more friends ask me about mollie than mushrooms or doses.  I've also been offered mollie far more than doses.  I'm thankful the ladies are coming out in droves. 

Finally, this is just my general observation of what I think has happened and why the shift in the crowd has occurred.  Obviously exceptions exist, and younger fans are out there that do go with this same philosophy of how it is played. 

Quote from: antelope19 on July 05, 2011, 10:19:31 PM
TLDR

Gotta be honest dude, this goes out to you and anyone else that bitches about the "hating" of 3.0.  Gumbo posts some real analysis and discussion about the band, and you can't take 5-10 minutes to read a worthy post?  That's seriously fucking weak.  Isn't this what you guys want?  Genuine discussion without the generic "3.0 sucks" comments?  But you blow it off.  Sweet contribution.   :roll:

Quote from: Marmar on July 06, 2011, 10:00:08 AM
riddle me this, riddle me that.....

QuoteMaybe what I meant was that it's easy to want to satisfy the "raging peak" crowd ALL the time. Almost seems to me that T is so worried about the next peak, that he doesn't let jamz develop.

Why can't both levels coexist within the same context.....? a la Chalkdust from IT.....

What would a jam be without some kind of peak?.....

I definitely don't have a problem with peaks at all when they use them in the right way. They are a natural part of most jams, and in fact a peakless jam would make it worse for me. I just think that when he leads a peak, it needs to be natural, not forced, and the only other thing on his mind shouldn't be the next peak, but that's how it seems to be right now. I wish they were equally concerned with developing the in between, and not just peaks.

Quote from: sophist on July 06, 2011, 10:30:06 AM

Quote from: antelope19 on July 05, 2011, 10:19:31 PM
TLDR

Gotta be honest dude, this goes out to you and anyone else that bitches about the "hating" of 3.0.  Gumbo posts some real analysis and discussion about the band, and you can't take 5-10 minutes to read a worthy post?  That's seriously fucking weak.  Isn't this what you guys want?  Genuine discussion without the generic "3.0 sucks" comments?  But you blow it off.  Sweet contribution.   :roll:

It was a joke. But since you made it personal, I'll go ahead and weigh in.

No, I don't read half of the bull shit hatred you guys spew. I honestly think a number of you need to move on. You make it sound the band owes you something. Shit just gets real old when people bitch about repeats, and then the band changes it up, and you bitch about that too.

I couldnt be happier with the progress the band has made over the last year or so. The composed sections are much better. Sure, some of the transitions are "forced", but to me, that's such a minor detail in the overall picture. I'm there to gave a good time, see some of my best friends in the world, and listen to my favorite band. I feel LUCKY to be able to do so. It's a priveledge, not a right.

If you don't like what the band is doing, don't go. More room for those of us that do enjoy it. And seriously, if you hate something so much, why do you go on the Internet to bitch about it? Do you not have anything better to do?

I don't know, alot of the attitude around here has been weighing on me lately.

i wasn't around for 1.0 or 2.0, but how much hating existed then compared to now?  just so i know how serious to take you jokers

Quote from: nakedpa on July 06, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
i wasn't around for 1.0 or 2.0, but how much hating existed then compared to now?  just so i know how serious to take you jokers

Post Clifford Ball fans suck...  They just don't know how good we had it early on...

Terry

People have always been critical, and there has always been something to complain about.

The biggest problem is people who take criticism of the band or shows they were at personally, and get offended that people don't like everything as much as they did.

A discussion of the shortcomings of the show is much better than reading one of Mr. Miner's reviews.

Quote from: mattstick on July 06, 2011, 11:03:32 AM

The biggest problem is people who take criticism of the band or shows they were at personally, and get offended that people don't like everything as much as they did.

Its an issue because PH is a Religion...  You are questioning someone's PHaith when you point out that their favorite show was a brown-steamy... 

Terry

Quote from: mattstick on July 06, 2011, 11:03:32 AM
People have always been critical, and there has always been something to complain about.

The biggest problem is people who take criticism of the band or shows they were at personally, and get offended that people don't like everything as much as they did.

A discussion of the shortcomings of the show is much better than reading one of Mr. Miner's reviews.

Right. It is easy
to glow about how awesome
everything is.

To take what you love
and view it objectively
is the real challenge.

Quote from: antelope19 on July 06, 2011, 10:57:39 AM

Quote from: sophist on July 06, 2011, 10:30:06 AM

Quote from: antelope19 on July 05, 2011, 10:19:31 PM
TLDR

Gotta be honest dude, this goes out to you and anyone else that bitches about the "hating" of 3.0.  Gumbo posts some real analysis and discussion about the band, and you can't take 5-10 minutes to read a worthy post?  That's seriously fucking weak.  Isn't this what you guys want?  Genuine discussion without the generic "3.0 sucks" comments?  But you blow it off.  Sweet contribution.   :roll:

It was a joke. But since you made it personal, I'll go ahead and weigh in.

No, I don't read half of the bull shit hatred you guys spew. I honestly think a number of you need to move on. You make it sound the band owes you something. Shit just gets real old when people bitch about repeats, and then the band changes it up, and you bitch about that too.

I couldnt be happier with the progress the band has made over the last year or so. The composed sections are are much better. Sure, some of the transitions are "forced", but to me, that's such a minor detail in the overall picture. I'm there to gave a good time, see some of my best friends in the world, and listen to my favorite band. I feel LUCKY to be able to do so. It's a priveledge, not a right.

If you don't like what the band is doing, don't go. More room for those of us that do enjoy it. And seriously, if you hate something so much, why do you go on the Internet to bitch about it? Do you not have anything better to do?

I don't know, alot of the attitude around here has been weighing on me lately.

Did you read my last post in this thread? 

How is that hating?  How is that bullshit?  Explain.  I did what was asked in this thread.  I contributed and offered up a heart felt and serious discussion on the state of the band.  You, basically told the critical people to go away.  Again, I'd say sweet contribution.  There are people on this board that fluff the shit out of 3.0 and I have mad respect for their opinion (Pieguy, and Scotty being two people who I know love the state of this band and I also really respect and appreciate their opinions on music and Phish).  And I know they really appreciate my take on music too, it's why they engage me on various topics with regard to music.  Kind of makes wonder if you even get where I'm coming from if you think I'm simply "spewing bullshit."  Or if you understand what I really think of Phish or how they've impacted me as a person.  While I may not agree with Scott or Dave on their take of 3.0, I know for a fucking fact that can see right through me with how I really feel about Phish.  It's why we share a passion for discussing music and a love for Phish.  Anyone that spends anytime with me knows this.  If I wanted to be a dick troll like FPFR I could, but I'm not.  I offer up serious analysis and I dive deep into the music. 

I have to say first and foremost, this is the most analytical and civil discussion thread that has fired up in a while and I personally would like to see it remain that way.  I think lope probably didn't think his words out as well as he would have liked.

1) HATE - There have been a lot of times where comments just a this sucks, that sucks, Phish sucks, etc.  That does get old.  I've just ignored it because I don't agree with all of it.

2) FLUFF - Sometimes it happens.  Ignore that too.

3) This thread -

I am very pumped to see that we are taking some time to actually analyze and critically discuss our observations.  I for one lean in general to the Fluff side of things.  I am enjoying Phish and will continue to enjoy Phish as long as they are progressing.  The Phish that we are hearing right now is NOT the Phish we saw in the Summer of 2009.  Maybe we aren't getting the psychadelic jams that we did in the 90's but Phish is by far much better as a unit than in 2009. 

I know this is preaching to the choir, but I don't just look at Phish as the musical outlet.  Phish is more than that.  It is community, friendship, and a total escape.  There were people I simply did not see from 2004 to 2009.  Its just how life and the world works, but now I get a chance to see them on the regular along with the music.  Its pretty awesome if you ask me.

Now some may say, well we should be discussing the music and while we do there are SO many factors that impact what is being done on stage.  The band is older, they don't do drugs, they have kids, the fans have kids, wives, jobs, economy, on and on and on.  I think every aspect of this is how we get what we get now.  As soph mentioned the difference in drugs I think is a factor, but I think its all intertwined from what is mentioned in the previous sentence.  I think the fact that many of us are interested in a cottage versus a tent and these kind of things play such a role.  I'm just not sure we will ever find a single silver bullet on this one.  Things are just different.

I have listened to every note on this tour and I am generally pleased with what I have heard.  Unfortunately not all of it will be on my iPod like the entire 97 tours, but thats quite OK.  I still enjoy what I've heard and will continue to enjoy going to a show or 2 or 5. 

I for one believe that Phish will never again be the Phish we all want, but I am glad there is Phish and that there is the paug and that there is a continuing movement forward in whatever shape its been.  Ripcords suck and whale calls suck and totally botched Divided Sky's suck, but in 2004 - 2009 we had nothing.  I would rather take a 90% or whatever grade you'd give them than a 0.  I know I'm not 100% every day of my life so why should they? 

We are critical because they are special!  But special doesn't translate to perfect. 

If I had to create a wish, I wish that Phish could give me the Fall 97 snakes every night.  I also wish I could eat mushrooms like they were candy and not have a care in the world. 

If I had to speak to reality, I'm OK with what we got now.  2009<2010<2011 and hopefully <2012<.....

I think people have always been critical of the band, in fact I think it's part of what makes Phish fans so unique, in that we would pay such careful attention to the music and dissect it with such precision.

What I think is different with 3.0 is that there seems to be this divide and reconciling the two camps is nearly impossible.  It's almost like politics where viewpoints are so divergent that you have to wonder if there even is such a thing as objective reality.  On one hand you've got guys like Miner who claim that the band is "at the top of their game" and at a new creative peak and then you've got the "haters" who think that Phish has become just what they had always feared, a novelty act and caricature of their former selves.  Of course the truth is probably somewhere in the middle but it's difficult for me to understand how people can hear the music so differently.  When Miner ways that the IX Gin was a "huge" version I'm just left scratching my head, cause all I heard was the usual rawk peak.   

Personally I think I'm on the hater side of the spectrum, but can still enjoy Phish when they bring it, which is unfortunately IMO is not as often as they phone it in these days. 

I will say that there may be something larger going on here than just Phish and their audience.  Another thing I think is unique to the Phish scene, or any scene that has its roots in psychedelic use, is that it is reflection of something much deeper.  That is, a scene like Phish mirrors the current state of society, or beyond that the evolution of human consciousness, in ways that a normal rock show does not.  And when we really look at ourselves, what is the state of human consciousness these days?  From my view it ain't pretty, we are distracted, confused and ultimately a reckless and careless lot.  So that's what you get a Phish show too, a bunch of kids that are there to get wasted and "rage" and don't really have the patience for a truly deep and meaningful experience.  So in the respect that a Phish show is kind of a microcosm of where humanity is at right now, so too is the music a reflection of what's going on in the crowd. 

I dunno, you know that feeling you had when you were young that music or psychedelics could really change the world for the better?  In a lot of ways I think that what we are seeing is the death of that (again, this all happened before to our parents in the late 60s and early 70s), and if there is any real "hate" perhaps that's where it really comes from.

One of the great things about a Phish fest is that they really do give you a great perspective on the state of all things  :phish:. A Phish fest is Phish Inc. at their best. Plain and simple. And I do mean Phish Inc., not just  :phish:.

Read the daily papers published at the fest. Read the interviews with Trey and with CK5 and with Lars and Tom Marshal, and the Dude. Everyone is on the same page, for sure. Granted, they are all part of a PR machine that paints a rosy picture, but the picture is really interesting.

There was a comment from Russ Bennet about how the backstage scene used to be a HUGE party. He described it as the battery that charged everything that happened out in the "Ball Square" and all the art and everything at the old fests. He wasn't saying "that's gone and so there is no battery and everything is dead now." He was implying that the band and the creative people around them have changed and grown up. The things that "charge" them now are different than they were when they were younger.

And, honestly, I think that change has way more to do with the current state of the band than anything they see in the crowd. I still think Trey has trouble with patience. His mind is restless and he can feel restlessness in the crowd at times and that may be what makes him force new musical ideas before the current ones have been fully explored. I agree with Sophist that the crowd get antsy when things get too "out there" these days. I noticed it at Bethel. I didn't notice it at SBIX, however. I think at the fest you have exactly the people who will listen to exploration no matter what.

Then again, I was in the dance-party zone all weekend. When the music got quiet, all I could hear was the shuffling of feet. People were not talking around me. I watched a youtube video shot from behind the soundboard and all I could hear was idiots talking over the music.

So, thinking out loud, I realize, perhaps Trey gets restless and moves on too soon because he hears people talking and getting restless out in the crowd. I don't know.

At any rate, I truly think this weekend was Phish at their best. I think it rivals what they did in 1.0 from almost every angle. Musically, I found the last set of the last night a little disappointing, but I was exhausted, too, so I really don't think I could have survived a monster YEM at the end of it all. I just didn't have anything left in the tank for something that big.

I don't have expectations of 30+ minute jams around every corner. Perhaps I'm part of the problem. I get restless. I know I've said this before, but I fucking hate every Drums>Space segment of every Dead show post 1979. I'm not a huge fan of all the ambient shit from Phish 2.0 (or even summer 2000) either.

I love free-form improvisation, but I can't expect that every night. Phish is playing fucking well right now. Listen to Monkey Man! Totally unexpected and yet, torn to shreds. Fucking brilliant! Listen to Peaches. They clearly rehearsed that one for us!!

I just don't know how anybody could complain about the state of Phish after they put together a weekend as epic as SBIX. Do you want the Bozeman Tweezer every night? How many Bozeman Tweezers do you think a band has in them? Are they past their prime? Maybe. Are they swinging for the fences anyway? IMO, yes. They are kicking ass and taking names.

Enjoy it while it lasts, phanners. This is the good stuff.

Something's happening.

ikki lays it out
Phish has long been a mirror
which begs the question:

If we're judging Phish
harshly, aren't we condemning
our collective selves?

If Phish crowds became
quiet, sit-down, listeners
what would Phish become?

Ramsay - I do not "love the state of this band."  I accept the state of this band and make the best of it.


FWIW, I don't think the fanbase has a single thing to do with how Phish is playing right now. I think they are playing exactly how THEY want to play.  Trey is just sober and completely ADD.  He wants the rawk and then he wants to move on to the next song. It's unfortunate that is not what we want.

I also think it's a bunch of bullshit that people claim the current fanbase doesn't have patience for explorative jams, and that is the reason phish isn't doing it.  I don't see that at all. 

For me, Right sentiment, wrong thread to post it in.

I find it pretty disheartening to read that people are under the impression  the newer fans (3.0ers) do not have the patients for, and more specifically do not want or seek the deep moments and the truly awe inspiring jams where you are witnessing them figure it out. (Sorry for the run on sentence, I'm new here.)  Yes of course there is some what of a change in the drug scene...maul dawgs rule supreme and I find less and less people trying to find the mysterious head space I so crave.

Do I see a shit ton of people dipping mollie and blowing K? Yes.  But I equally see just as many people standing completely still, eyes closed, listening, not just hearing but actually absorbing

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 06, 2011, 12:34:57 PM
Ramsay - I do not "love the state of this band."  I accept the state of this band and make the best of it.

To put it best, there was a time when I thought seeing these four on stage together was something completely out of grasp.  I had already accepted that Jerry was long gone, and that if I could I would charge up my flux capacitor with 1.21 gigawatts and go "back in tiiiiime",  but I can't.

What I can do is go to a Phish fest on the 4th of July weekend in my mid twenties and relish in the fact that this was an impossibility at one point.

PG really hits the nail on the head. I feel that  :phish: gets comfortable with their sound at the time and masters that sound during each of their eras.
93 was the speedjazz
97 they were wrapped up in the funk so they played some heavy cowfunk/spacefunk
2011 they are inspired by ballads and showin phans that they can still rock and  :rawk:. With all the stones, little feat, talking heads covers, they are trying to be a rock band, not a explorative improv jam band.

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 06, 2011, 12:51:43 PM
(Sorry for the run on sentence, I'm new here.)

Noobness and grammar are independent. That you are a newb as been established elsewhere. That you can't write a decent sentence... well, I'm not sure what can be said.

Quote from: PIE-GUY on July 06, 2011, 12:55:47 PM
That you can't write a decent sentence... well, I'm not sure what can be said.

It's all the dr00gz maaaaann!  I think it means that he's a 3.0 newb who just does a ton of mollie & K @ shows, gets bored during the psychedelic jams, and talks over all the music.  No different than all of us 3.0ers...

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 06, 2011, 12:51:43 PM
I find it pretty disheartening to read that people are under the impression  the newer fans (3.0ers) do not have the patients for...

I didn't make it past here.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 06, 2011, 01:12:10 PM

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 06, 2011, 12:51:43 PM
I find it pretty disheartening to read that people are under the impression  the newer fans (3.0ers) do not have the patients for...

I didn't make it past here.

Understandable....I am fairly ashamed at this point in the bashing....well done.

to blame the audience for the state of band is to say a lot about your own personal mindset than about the band.

since when did phish crowds watch with patient rapture an epic jam? i remember halloween '98 where that third set bored at least a quarter of the crowd if not more. there's always been people like that at shows. phish is a party for a whole lot of people and always has been.

i also don't get this notion of picking on 'kids' because they haven't been obsessed with phish all their lives. don't we WANT newbies to be coming to shows and getting into this band? everyone here was a n00b once. everyone here was that kid at a show going, 'what was that called? tweezer? whoa dude! that was amazing!'

for a tired old nostalgia act, this band sure attracts a lot of new fans. and that's a GOOD thing. the newbs will catch on eventually and become a bunch of complaining jerks like us soon enough. why not be happy that some people in the crowd love hearing Sample? it's a good song, especially if you haven't heard it at 100 shows and listened to it ten thousand times on tape.

is the band uncomfortable on stage? scared to jam? i don't see it. trey is a spazz and always has been. sober trey has a mind that wanders. he likes to play songs. if this truly bothered the rest of the band, they would do something about it. instead, they seem to be having a great time playing a lot of songs and not jamming much (at least as WE interpret jamming).

as for perfect sets, one issue might be the sheer length of sets these days. a lot of the best sets of '97 were an hour, maybe 70 minutes tops. these days a typical set is an hour and a half, and at superall an hour forty-five. with no giant jams to anchor such a set, it's not easy to create a non-stop perfectly flowing thing of beauty. the band seems more into just playing lots of songs. because they love their songs. which is also not a bad thing.

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 06, 2011, 01:13:34 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 06, 2011, 01:12:10 PM

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 06, 2011, 12:51:43 PM
I find it pretty disheartening to read that people are under the impression  the newer fans (3.0ers) do not have the patients for...

I didn't make it past here.

Understandable....I am fairly ashamed at this point in the bashing....well done.

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

I did appreciate you correctly identified 1.21 gigawatts from a movie that probably came out before you were born though.

Quote from: Hicks on July 06, 2011, 12:23:14 PM
I will say that there may be something larger going on here than just Phish and their audience.  Another thing I think is unique to the Phish scene, or any scene that has its roots in psychedelic use, is that it is reflection of something much deeper.  That is, a scene like Phish mirrors the current state of society, or beyond that the evolution of human consciousness, in ways that a normal rock show does not.  And when we really look at ourselves, what is the state of human consciousness these days?  From my view it ain't pretty, we are distracted, confused and ultimately a reckless and careless lot.  So that's what you get a Phish show too, a bunch of kids that are there to get wasted and "rage" and don't really have the patience for a truly deep and meaningful experience.  So in the respect that a Phish show is kind of a microcosm of where humanity is at right now, so too is the music a reflection of what's going on in the crowd. 

Deep thoughts, by Hicks.

That's a pretty interesting case you make. One of the best I've heard for the "fans don't have the patience for the deep jamz" theory. I still think it's more Trey than the fans, but it's hard to say what he can pick up on when he's onstage rocking the fuck out. With a huge crowd like that, and you're playing music, can you really tell how much talking or screwing around is going on?

I stopped reading posts when I saw that several of you mistook my comments as picking on the new phans/you directly.  Again, like I said, if you take this as some sort of bitching or somehow it's applied to everyone that started seeing Phish after the 90's, then you're not getting me or my point.  Before posting a retort, read my post (entirely) and think for a moment.  I even at the end of it point this out, "Finally, this is just my general observation of what I think has happened and why the shift in the crowd has occurred.  Obviously exceptions exist, and younger fans are out there that do go with this same philosophy of how it is played. "  That's not a fucking absolute, it doesn't mean all new fans are one way.  It really becomes complicated to have an open discussion with some of you when you can't even have a conversation without taking offense/going on the defensive or somehow worrying about how you're perceived by me or other fans.    So I'm not saying all 3.0 or 2.0 fans, or even really anyone here.  If you're here posting with me, I'd bet good odds that you're one of those people that has a huge love of Phish like all of us here, and you're not who I'm talking about.  In fact, here comes a shocking fact, you're in the minority of fans.  Most fans don't obsess like us.  I know, fucking crazy right?   So take a chill pill, pull those panties out of your tightened ass crack, and let's get to back having a conservation rather than laying down defensive prose like you're on Phish trial. 

Cactusfan,
I'm not saying it's all the crowd's fault.  I'm not evening blaming fans.  All I did was point out an observation.  I think the mindset of the fans has changed and with that how they approach the music of Phish has changed the concert experience of Phish.  I think Phish sees this and at times adapts to it.  I don't doubt that they (Phish) aren't doing what they want to do.  Clearly, they are.  I don't think it's just their decision alone that has changed things, it's this combination of factors. 

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 06, 2011, 12:34:57 PM
Ramsay - I do not "love the state of this band."  I accept the state of this band and make the best of it.


FWIW, I don't think the fanbase has a single thing to do with how Phish is playing right now. I think they are playing exactly how THEY want to play.  Trey is just sober and completely ADD.  He wants the rawk and then he wants to move on to the next song. It's unfortunate that is not what we want.

I also think it's a bunch of bullshit that people claim the current fanbase doesn't have patience for explorative jams, and that is the reason phish isn't doing it.  I don't see that at all. 

Fair enough on accepting it (though loving 3.0 isn't a bad thing in my book, so I wouldn't take it that way if you or anyone else loved it). 

Sorry buddy, but I think you need to go watch some youtube footage of 3.0.  It's all over the fucking audience recordings too.  People talk a lot more than I've ever seen or noticed (I know people always talk at concerts, so I'm not implying that a time existed when Phish fans were all ears and no partying).  Even in the very front of the pits.  At Alpharetta and Portsmouth I couldn't help but notice people talking when anything would deviate from a loud rawk jam.  Their is an inverse relationship between the volume of the band and the attentiveness of the crowd.

eta: fixed some typos.   

Quote from: JPhishman on July 06, 2011, 01:29:22 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 06, 2011, 12:23:14 PM
I will say that there may be something larger going on here than just Phish and their audience.  Another thing I think is unique to the Phish scene, or any scene that has its roots in psychedelic use, is that it is reflection of something much deeper.  That is, a scene like Phish mirrors the current state of society, or beyond that the evolution of human consciousness, in ways that a normal rock show does not.  And when we really look at ourselves, what is the state of human consciousness these days?  From my view it ain't pretty, we are distracted, confused and ultimately a reckless and careless lot.  So that's what you get a Phish show too, a bunch of kids that are there to get wasted and "rage" and don't really have the patience for a truly deep and meaningful experience.  So in the respect that a Phish show is kind of a microcosm of where humanity is at right now, so too is the music a reflection of what's going on in the crowd. 

Deep thoughts, by Hicks.

That's a pretty interesting case you make. One of the best I've heard for the "fans don't have the patience for the deep jamz" theory. I still think it's more Trey than the fans, but it's hard to say what he can pick up on when he's onstage rocking the fuck out. With a huge crowd like that, and you're playing music, can you really tell how much talking or screwing around is going on?

I think yes.  Trey doesn't dop the eyes closed/roll into the back of his head thing much anymore.  I think he does the crowd more than ever, probably needs to.

I agree with Hicks' thoughts completely. 




Also, I am still pleased at the level of constructive discussion.   :clap:

Does any of thes really matter? If you don't like what they are doing just stop listening and fretting. Just use this newfound free time to check out a new band or an old band you'd forgotten about. But please don't waste your valuable time dicking around with Phish if you're not into what's going on.

Simply my though process.

I would argue that when on stage (especially in the size arenas/sheds that phish is playing)  the amount of "chatter" going on has little effect on the band.

You have tons of monitors blowing in your face.  Can you really notice if a crowd is being chatty during the middle of a song?  Sure, you notice when there are crowd uproars, and you probably notice if the crowd becomes near silent, but I doubt that crowd "chatter" or screwing around is somehting that the band takes much notice of.

Could be wrong though, I sure as hell have never played on a stage the size they have @ the decibel levels they are putting out.  It just seems unlikely they can hear much other than themselves when on stage.

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 06, 2011, 01:55:18 PM
I would argue that when on stage (especially in the size arenas/sheds that phish is playing)  the amount of "chatter" going on has little effect on the band.

You have tons of monitors blowing in your face.  Can you really notice if a crowd is being chatty during the middle of a song?  Sure, you notice when there are crowd uproars, and you probably notice if the crowd becomes near silent, but I doubt that crowd "chatter" or screwing around is somehting that the band takes much notice of.

Could be wrong though, I sure as hell have never played on a stage the size they have @ the decibel levels they are putting out.  It just seems unlikely they can hear much other than themselves when on stage.

Hearing is but one sense, and what I'm talking about is something more intangible like a feeling or vibe, tapping into that is what it's all about right?

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 06, 2011, 01:55:18 PM
I would argue that when on stage (especially in the size arenas/sheds that phish is playing)  the amount of "chatter" going on has little effect on the band.

You have tons of monitors blowing in your face.  Can you really notice if a crowd is being chatty during the middle of a song?  Sure, you notice when there are crowd uproars, and you probably notice if the crowd becomes near silent, but I doubt that crowd "chatter" or screwing around is somehting that the band takes much notice of.

Could be wrong though, I sure as hell have never played on a stage the size they have @ the decibel levels they are putting out.  It just seems unlikely they can hear much other than themselves when on stage.

The biggest crowd I have ever played for was 250 people.  It was for my youth church band.  We played Christian rock.  I played bass.  We had a light show and a pull down projection screen with the stage set up.  When it got quite I could hear things yelled at me.  No matter how loud or quite I could look out into the crowd and read faces.  I think with Phish it's no different.  They can see the crowd.  From the front of the stage you can see how people are behind the stage, and during the NYE run I observed a lot of the crowd from our spot behind the stage. 

The band knows whats up with the crowd.  They can see it and hear it at times. 

Quote from: Hicks on July 06, 2011, 02:00:50 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 06, 2011, 01:55:18 PM
I would argue that when on stage (especially in the size arenas/sheds that phish is playing)  the amount of "chatter" going on has little effect on the band.

You have tons of monitors blowing in your face.  Can you really notice if a crowd is being chatty during the middle of a song?  Sure, you notice when there are crowd uproars, and you probably notice if the crowd becomes near silent, but I doubt that crowd "chatter" or screwing around is somehting that the band takes much notice of.

Could be wrong though, I sure as hell have never played on a stage the size they have @ the decibel levels they are putting out.  It just seems unlikely they can hear much other than themselves when on stage.

Hearing is but one sense, and what I'm talking about is something more intangible like a feeling or vibe, tapping into that is what it's all about right?

Indeed.  And I agree w/ you on that. When the audience is feeling it and the energy is high (i.e. the Greek Theatre)  the band can feel it, and feed off of it.

Quote from: roggae on July 06, 2011, 01:55:01 PM
Does any of thes really matter? If you don't like what they are doing just stop listening and fretting. Just use this newfound free time to check out a new band or an old band you'd forgotten about. But please don't waste your valuable time dicking around with Phish if you're not into what's going on.

Simply my though process.

While I understand your point, you've been on this board a while to know that this is a discussion board.  Just sayin'. 

I actually feel like this thread is showing some Mat-ure pauging.

QuoteTA: Today what I do is—I do this every night we play—I have a little quiet moment where I picture some guy having a fight with his girlfriend, getting into his car—the battery's dead—then he gets to the parking lot and it's full. Meets up with his friends. Comes into the show. I try to picture this one person having their own experience, and I picture them way in the back of the room. And I try to remember how insignificant my experience is, and how people's experiences with music are their own thing. We put it out there, and if it's of service to someone, great, but I try to get away from the idea that it's even starting from us. And when you do that listening-exercise stuff, when I actually get into a moment where I'm only listening, I find that the music gets so much... beyond us. And I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience. It always feels more resonant if I can get my hands off it. If all four of us were here, they'd all be saying the same thing. It's great as long as you listen to anybody but yourself. Anything but yourself.

from here (http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=18516.0)

That's a very recent interview.  I'm on point here.  He/They are watching and reacting.  They took one of the crucial tools of power from the Dead, which was/is playing the space, not just the music. 

Quote from: sophist on July 06, 2011, 02:24:32 PM

QuoteTA: Today what I do is—I do this every night we play—I have a little quiet moment where I picture some guy having a fight with his girlfriend, getting into his car—the battery's dead—then he gets to the parking lot and it's full. Meets up with his friends. Comes into the show. I try to picture this one person having their own experience, and I picture them way in the back of the room. And I try to remember how insignificant my experience is, and how people's experiences with music are their own thing. We put it out there, and if it's of service to someone, great, but I try to get away from the idea that it's even starting from us. And when you do that listening-exercise stuff, when I actually get into a moment where I'm only listening, I find that the music gets so much... beyond us. And I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience. It always feels more resonant if I can get my hands off it. If all four of us were here, they'd all be saying the same thing. It's great as long as you listen to anybody but yourself. Anything but yourself.

from here (http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=18516.0)

That's a very recent interview.  I'm on point here.  He/They are watching and reacting.  They took one of the crucial tools of power from the Dead, which was/is playing the space, not just the music.

Well there you have it.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

That was a very good read.

Lots of good points made in here so far. I feel like I half agree with Gumbo's first post, but I'm very much with WTU in that I believe that Phish is playing about how they want to right now and that it isn't totally a reaction to the crowd (or reaction to the crowd reaction if that makes sense). Pie-Guy hit the nail on the head a couple of weeks ago, imo, when he made that post about Trey entering a manic phase and how you can really see it come through in his playing, which also adds the sense of urgency and distraction that seems to hold Trey back. (Sorry I'm too lazy to go find his post, but I think that's an accurate paraphrasing).

I'm right with Sophist on his take on the scene/drug use/etc. as there definitely is a much stronger ADD rave fest these days (granted I never saw 1.0 but from hearing stories, seeing videos, and simply hearing the music I would believe it). I think a lot of the criticism of the younger side of the crowd can be attributed to a simple fact: short, punching, rawk versions of songs are way more accessible to a wider audience (at least at first....) which is why the kidz eat up the same C&P week after week. Once they see a bunch of shows, I guarantee they will want more, especially as they begin to listen to more and more older material, and see what they are capable of. It isn't purely a fault of the TV/ADD generation's mental abilities, I think it has more to do with the fact that a huge wave of people just now got turned on to phish, and they are listening to new stuff and going backwards.

I, for one, am guilty of this. I didn't really get into phish until a couple of months after Coventry, when I started listening to the shit out of NYE '95. I knew to some extent what they were capable of before I saw my first show (cville '09) but it was when I saw that show that it all blew up for me. I went from there to Miami for NYE, where it was so obvious to me that those were the best shows EVAH!  :roll: 23 shows later, and after listening to older shows extensively/intensively over the past couple of years, I fully understand both sides of the coin here. I am cursed because I never was able to see any old shows, but at the same time, I'm blessed because I am able to go into the 3.0 era with a totally open mind, while very much appreciating and loving (and obviously preferring) their older shows. I'm not saying a bunch of you guys are closed minded, I'm just saying that working backwards down the number line (sorry I had to) gives a very different perspective, and hopefully a significant group of the younger crowd can do what I did so we don't have to keep being distracted at shows by people talking and chucking glowsticks at each other when the band starts doing what we actually want them to.




eta: As a side note, I like how civil and "mat-ure" this thread has been so far - I know I bitch a lot about incessant hating, but it's only because I know that we can have much better conversations, such as this one.

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 06, 2011, 02:21:55 PM
I actually feel like this thread is showing some Mat-ure pauging.

What?! Piss of Uncle Eb! I'm really getting sick of your "Look at us! We can agree to disagree so civilly" fluffing.
:wink:

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 06, 2011, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 06, 2011, 02:21:55 PM
I actually feel like this thread is showing some Mat-ure pauging.

What?! Piss of Uncle Eb! I'm really getting sick of your "Look at us! We can agree to disagree so civilly" fluffing.
:wink:

I was actually trying to piss people off with my "we are the world" crap. 

(http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/1030-02.jpg)

:wink:

Quote from: qop24 on July 06, 2011, 02:38:18 PM
I didn't really get into phish until a couple of months after Coventry, when I started listening to the shit out of NYE '95.

For me, this one line sums up the entire thread.  Nothing against qop, or against anybody here per se...  Its just that different people are going to view the band differently. 

In this particular case, we get a response from a Non-1.0er, who didn't start until after Coventry, and first "learned" with 12/31/95...  His opinion will differ great from someone like myself who was 15 row DFC at that show...  I'm not discounting qop's opinion, I'm just pointing out that everyone's perspective will be different, for reasons that have nothing to do with the Band.

Also, we're talking about a Band that has purposely re-invented itself over the years.  In some cases, its hasn't always been for the best (96 imo), but they were able to learn from those experiences and incorporate those lessons in their future re-inventions.  In this case, I think the Band is more interested in getting back to having fun, rather than destroying the world...


I'll go back to lurking now...

Terry

Quote from: Hicks on July 06, 2011, 12:23:14 PM
I think people have always been critical of the band, in fact I think it's part of what makes Phish fans so unique, in that we would pay such careful attention to the music and dissect it with such precision.

What I think is different with 3.0 is that there seems to be this divide and reconciling the two camps is nearly impossible.  It's almost like politics where viewpoints are so divergent that you have to wonder if there even is such a thing as objective reality.  On one hand you've got guys like Miner who claim that the band is "at the top of their game" and at a new creative peak and then you've got the "haters" who think that Phish has become just what they had always feared, a novelty act and caricature of their former selves.  Of course the truth is probably somewhere in the middle but it's difficult for me to understand how people can hear the music so differently.  When Miner ways that the IX Gin was a "huge" version I'm just left scratching my head, cause all I heard was the usual rawk peak.   

Personally I think I'm on the hater side of the spectrum, but can still enjoy Phish when they bring it, which is unfortunately IMO is not as often as they phone it in these days. 

I will say that there may be something larger going on here than just Phish and their audience.  Another thing I think is unique to the Phish scene, or any scene that has its roots in psychedelic use, is that it is reflection of something much deeper.  That is, a scene like Phish mirrors the current state of society, or beyond that the evolution of human consciousness, in ways that a normal rock show does not.  And when we really look at ourselves, what is the state of human consciousness these days?  From my view it ain't pretty, we are distracted, confused and ultimately a reckless and careless lot.  So that's what you get a Phish show too, a bunch of kids that are there to get wasted and "rage" and don't really have the patience for a truly deep and meaningful experience.  So in the respect that a Phish show is kind of a microcosm of where humanity is at right now, so too is the music a reflection of what's going on in the crowd. 

I dunno, you know that feeling you had when you were young that music or psychedelics could really change the world for the better?  In a lot of ways I think that what we are seeing is the death of that (again, this all happened before to our parents in the late 60s and early 70s), and if there is any real "hate" perhaps that's where it really comes from.

epoch.

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 06, 2011, 12:34:57 PM
I accept the state of this band and make the best of it.

:clap: This is exactly why you have such a good time at the shows.  I'm with you 100%. 

Quote from: sophist on July 06, 2011, 02:24:32 PM

QuoteTA: Today what I do is—I do this every night we play—I have a little quiet moment where I picture some guy having a fight with his girlfriend, getting into his car—the battery's dead—then he gets to the parking lot and it's full. Meets up with his friends. Comes into the show. I try to picture this one person having their own experience, and I picture them way in the back of the room. And I try to remember how insignificant my experience is, and how people's experiences with music are their own thing. We put it out there, and if it's of service to someone, great, but I try to get away from the idea that it's even starting from us. And when you do that listening-exercise stuff, when I actually get into a moment where I'm only listening, I find that the music gets so much... beyond us. And I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience. It always feels more resonant if I can get my hands off it. If all four of us were here, they'd all be saying the same thing. It's great as long as you listen to anybody but yourself. Anything but yourself.

from here (http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=18516.0)

I also find this line very telling--it appears immediately after the quotation sophist posted above:

QuoteTA: Right. It's when I start applying my own fucked-up perspective to a show—so I had a bad day, whatever—that I start adding judgment to it. Or I play something and start judging what I'm playing. It's just like that, walking around in life, that's true! How often do I find myself walking around and being aware of my surroundings and not having some fucked-up internal dialogue in my head that never ends?

Just thought I'd chime in as a lurker and a 3.0er, granted one who is probably above the age of your average 3.0er (born 1979)

I did not discover Phish until 2006.  I frequented the DMB boards for years but was disillusioned with their sound at the time and eager to find something else.  I believe the NYE '95 and Island Tour releases were around this time because a lot of people were talking about them and I decided to check them out.  I'm not going to say there was some big revelation - Phish is an acquired taste.  Nonetheless it was a taste I acquired over the course of that year.  However this was a major bummer for me - Phish was gone and I'd missed my chance to see them.  I held out hope for a reunion.  And you better believe I was excited when that reunion materialized and when I finally had my chance to see them live for the first time.  And for a few shows that was all I needed.  Just to see them was something special.

But the novelty started to wear off.  After Providence (my 3rd show) last year I was left feeling a little underwhelmed.  The Worcester shows left me feeling the same - they had their moments, but I had expected more.  It was great to see them but I just wasn't getting what I wanted.  They weren't the same band I'd spent years listening to on tape.  When the tour was announced this year I just wasn't motivated to take the time and money to get to a show.  And from what I've seen of setlists and read of reviews, I don't regret it.  This just isn't the Phish I'm looking for.  I'm sure I'll see them again at some point because no doubt they still sound good and a Phish show is a good time.  But I'm just not feeling it as much as I'd hoped I would.

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
They weren't the same band I'd spent years listening to on tape.

All three of them? Beat it, HATER!

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
DMB

DMB went to crap once they got too big for Trax...

Terry

Quote from: twatts likes ghoti on July 06, 2011, 03:54:40 PM

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
DMB

DMB went to crap once they got too big for Trax...

Terry

:clap:

You from cville or just know the venue?

I should've left DMB out of this.  I understand if I've lost all credibility. Carry on.

Wow, reading this has really been eye-opening to me. I'll second all the civility, and stuff, but I honestly hope that's how every thread is. We have no need to bash and personally attack each other, this is an open discussion about a band we love.

As to the points made, I think that WTU and CactusFan are pretty on target with what they are perceiving. I agree with you guys, the band might not be listening to banter as much during songs, etc, but they definitely have a reaction when they play something like TTE, and then hear the reaction (or lack thereof). So now, when they get all rock-peaky without as much exploration on a Zero, and the place still goes bat shit crazy, they have to be thinking *AT LEAST SOMEWHAT* "They love it!".

Speaking to CactusFan's assessment of people walking out for piss breaks/beer/getting bored in 1.0, I definitely get it. I totally remember, and I guess it just seems such more prevalent to me now than it did then. Maybe I'm just a jaded dude that is being way too selfish. (Very good probability).

One of the best things I have read was also from CactusFan about wanting newbs to like Phish. (Sorry, too lazy to quote here, I wanted to get this down while it was fresh). I ABSOLUTELY want as many people as exposed to this as I can. If someone gets their rocks off during a 5 minute Sample, then good for them. I need to adopt this attitude a lot more, and stop being so selfish. Thanks for that, it really brought that to the forefront of my mind.

(B)All things reconsidered, I had an INSANE time this weekend, and I love this band. I don't plan on ceasing to love this band or go to shows. I also don't plan to hate anyone for their view of the band, and love debating all of our feelings.

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 04:06:14 PM
I should've left DMB out of this.  I understand if I've lost all credibility. Carry on.

:clap:

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 04:06:14 PM
I should've left DMB out of this.  I understand if I've lost all credibility. Carry on.

LOL!  I was just pointing out that its all about "perspective"...  For me, DMB was about Trax, cheap beer, and all the Sorostitutes you could eat...  Once they got "big", DMB lost its appeal, at least to me...  A crap-ton of other people feel entirely different, as evidenced by his sold-out stadium shows...

Quote from: qop24 on July 06, 2011, 03:57:28 PM
You from cville or just know the venue?

I went to UVA from 1990-1994... 

Terry

Quote from: PIE-GUY on July 06, 2011, 12:28:12 PM
Listen to Peaches. They clearly rehearsed that one for us!!

That surely was nice of them!
A professional live act rehearsing songs?!  :roll:

Quote from: twatts likes ghoti on July 06, 2011, 04:26:24 PM

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 04:06:14 PM
I should've left DMB out of this.  I understand if I've lost all credibility. Carry on.

LOL!  I was just pointing out that its all about "perspective"...  For me, DMB was about Trax, cheap beer, and all the Sorostitutes you could eat...  Once they got "big", DMB lost its appeal, at least to me...  A crap-ton of other people feel entirely different, as evidenced by his sold-out stadium shows...

Quote from: qop24 on July 06, 2011, 03:57:28 PM
You from cville or just know the venue?

I went to UVA from 1990-1994... 

Terry

Sweet

I don't understand why some of you have such a problem that people are enjoying Phish right now. Shit, most of the people I've met in 3.0 are in there 30's, with jobs, families, and real world responsibilities. They're not n00bs, they've been seeing Phish since the early 90's. Sure we talk about the music, sure we like to analyze, but we're still following our favorite band. Not because they are the best thing out there, or they filled a void left by someone else, or because they expect something to happen. They're just along for the ride, because they, like me, get something so deep and meaningful out of Phish shows that everything else just pales in comparison. Even though we go to see some amazing live music, it's just not phish. I mean shit, I went through this whole "they're not my band anymore" thing back in 98. And I'm happy to admit I'm having more fun with Phish right now then any time after that. Part of it is I have a great crew, part of it's the fact that my wife has gotten as obsessed as me, part of it's that I'm at a better place in my life right now then I've ever been. And so are the 4 guys onstage, who have had more influence over my life than anyone short of my parents, my kids, and my lady. I don't ever expect Phish to peak again, or get close to the level they were from 93-97. But I'm fine with that. It's not sustainable. So here we've got a guy who is fighting through the rock star cliche of getting slayed by the dragon.There's a million reasons I love Phish, and probably 90% of it is still there. So what gumbo70whatthefuckever? Is it ok? Are you shaking your head in disappointment again? Because I don't GET IT? Please. There's thousands of people out there who have been deeply touched by this band, for many different reasons, and from many different eras. I love talking to people about Phish, especially hearing where they are coming from and how they got into the band. You might want to talk to some more people and learn something, because this message board represents .000001% of that crowd. Don't fucking tell someone they don't get it because they're into it for different reasons you are. It's MUSIC. It's supposed hit people in different ways, and when it hits, it's supposed to feel ok. Jams are great. So are bluegrass tunes. So are reggae tunes. So are songs that get played the same way everytime, because they're GREAT SONGS. So is dancing. So is rocking. So is enjoying a beautiful Divided Sky on a beautiful day. So are people who travel across the country for the love of music. If all you can concentrate on is what's NOT there, I feel sorry for you. Personally I'll focus on what IS happening. And I like it a lot. If you think that makes me a n00b, or you think I don't know anything about music, then meet me in person and we'll find out how stupid you really are.
And I don't have any idea where their heads are at and why they make the decisions they do. They're fucking geniuses. They've been friends for what, 25+ years? They are musicians who created an amazing thing. And I know for certain they care about that a lot, and are doing what they can to include EVERYBODY in the ride. Because they think it's bigger then them. Sorry if that pisses you off. Boo-hoo

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
Personally I'll focus on what IS happening.

This is the most important part - much like what WTU said about accepting them as they are - and what I was getting at with my noob-confession of going into shows with a clean slate in '09

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
I don't understand why some of you have such a problem that people are enjoying Phish right now.   
(blah snipped)
Sorry if that pisses you off. Boo-hoo

Way to bring down the
Level of discourse in here
Try reading the thread

Quote from: qop24 on July 06, 2011, 04:45:04 PM

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
Personally I'll focus on what IS happening.

This is the most important part - much like what WTU said about accepting them as they are - and what I was getting at with my noob-confession of going into shows with a clean slate in '09

I think this is exactly what I don't like about the band right now.

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
I don't understand why some of you have such a problem that people are enjoying Phish right now. Shit, most of the people I've met in 3.0 are in there 30's, with jobs, families, and real world responsibilities. They're not n00bs, they've been seeing Phish since the early 90's. Sure we talk about the music, sure we like to analyze, but we're still following our favorite band. Not because they are the best thing out there, or they filled a void left by someone else, or because they expect something to happen. They're just along for the ride, because they, like me, get something so deep and meaningful out of Phish shows that everything else just pales in comparison. Even though we go to see some amazing live music, it's just not phish. I mean shit, I went through this whole "they're not my band anymore" thing back in 98. And I'm happy to admit I'm having more fun with Phish right now then any time after that. Part of it is I have a great crew, part of it's the fact that my wife has gotten as obsessed as me, part of it's that I'm at a better place in my life right now then I've ever been. And so are the 4 guys onstage, who have had more influence over my life than anyone short of my parents, my kids, and my lady. I don't ever expect Phish to peak again, or get close to the level they were from 93-97. But I'm fine with that. It's not sustainable. So here we've got a guy who is fighting through the rock star cliche of getting slayed by the dragon.There's a million reasons I love Phish, and probably 90% of it is still there. So what gumbo70whatthefuckever? Is it ok? Are you shaking your head in disappointment again? Because I don't GET IT? Please. There's thousands of people out there who have been deeply touched by this band, for many different reasons, and from many different eras. I love talking to people about Phish, especially hearing where they are coming from and how they got into the band. You might want to talk to some more people and learn something, because this message board represents .000001% of that crowd. Don't fucking tell someone they don't get it because they're into it for different reasons you are. It's MUSIC. It's supposed hit people in different ways, and when it hits, it's supposed to feel ok. Jams are great. So are bluegrass tunes. So are reggae tunes. So are songs that get played the same way everytime, because they're GREAT SONGS. So is dancing. So is rocking. So is enjoying a beautiful Divided Sky on a beautiful day. So are people who travel across the country for the love of music. If all you can concentrate on is what's NOT there, I feel sorry for you. Personally I'll focus on what IS happening. And I like it a lot. If you think that makes me a n00b, or you think I don't know anything about music, then meet me in person and we'll find out how stupid you really are.
And I don't have any idea where their heads are at and why they make the decisions they do. They're fucking geniuses. They've been friends for what, 25+ years? They are musicians who created an amazing thing. And I know for certain they care about that a lot, and are doing what they can to include EVERYBODY in the ride. Because they think it's bigger then them. Sorry if that pisses you off. Boo-hoo

I don't understand why you have such a problem with the return key.

I also don't know what shows you were going to where "most of the people" were in their 30s.

Quote from: mattstick on July 06, 2011, 04:52:42 PM

I also don't know what shows you were going to where "most of the people" were in their 30s.

It was there 30's.
I wouldn't give him any credit.

Quote from: rowjimmy on July 06, 2011, 04:45:49 PM

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
I don't understand why some of you have such a problem that people are enjoying Phish right now.   
(blah snipped)
Sorry if that pisses you off. Boo-hoo

Way to bring down the
Level of discourse in here
Try reading the thread

Spot on. Gumbo wasn't attacking anyone with this thread. He was making very rational, well crafted arguments. So has everyone else in this thread, even if I don't agree with them on everything. You have some valid points, but there's no need to come in with personal attacks...

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
It's MUSIC. It's supposed hit people in different ways, and when it hits, it's supposed to feel ok.

Wow, that's pretty profound. You should write a song about that.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 06, 2011, 04:57:27 PM

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
It's MUSIC. It's supposed hit people in different ways, and when it hits, it's supposed to feel ok.

Wow, that's pretty profound. You should write a song about that.

One good thing about music, when it hits you. . .













































































































you feel ok.

In all honesty, I don't agree with Gumbo's post (I can't even remember the last time I actually read one of long-winded ones), but it's pretty fucking stupid to have some lurker-type try and be an Internet Hero for no reason.

When music hits me...
I generally feel wishy-washy about the feeling it produces.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 06, 2011, 04:57:27 PM

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
It's MUSIC. It's supposed hit people in different ways, and when it hits, it's supposed to feel ok.

Wow, that's pretty profound. You should write a song about that.

4 ROR'd

I'm fairly certain
Some music's purpose is to
Make you ill at ease

let's keep the spirit of this thread goin guys...

I'm giving a +k to everyone that read through all these posts.

but we were all finally agreeing on something, how to rip on notkuroda. 

Quote from: qop24 on July 06, 2011, 05:07:48 PM
let's keep the spirit of this thread goin guys...

You tryin' to tell me what to do?

Quote from: bvaz on July 06, 2011, 05:14:06 PM
I'm giving a +k to everyone that read through all these posts.

Jesus, how uncritical can you be? Have some standards! Typical paug fluffing.  :wink:

Quote from: Hicks on July 06, 2011, 05:17:47 PM

Quote from: qop24 on July 06, 2011, 05:07:48 PM
let's keep the spirit of this thread goin guys...

You tryin' to tell me what to do?

yes, now sit down and STFU!

Quote from: qop24 on July 06, 2011, 05:47:46 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 06, 2011, 05:17:47 PM

Quote from: qop24 on July 06, 2011, 05:07:48 PM
let's keep the spirit of this thread goin guys...

You tryin' to tell me what to do?

yes, now sit down and STFU!

That's the spirit!!!   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Quote from: aphineday on July 06, 2011, 04:54:57 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on July 06, 2011, 04:45:49 PM

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
I don't understand why some of you have such a problem that people are enjoying Phish right now.   
(blah snipped)
Sorry if that pisses you off. Boo-hoo

Way to bring down the
Level of discourse in here
Try reading the thread

Spot on. Gumbo wasn't attacking anyone with this thread. He was making very rational, well crafted arguments. So has everyone else in this thread, even if I don't agree with them on everything. You have some valid points, but there's no need to come in with personal attacks...

best laugh of the day! thank you. oh man. i'm wiping tears away.

let's just say that whatever the hell gumbo has been saying, it's been said with honest feeling. and i refuse to believe that even half the contributors to this thread actually read all of his post.

Quote from: cactusfan on July 06, 2011, 06:51:50 PM

Quote from: aphineday on July 06, 2011, 04:54:57 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on July 06, 2011, 04:45:49 PM

Quote from: notkuroda on July 06, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
I don't understand why some of you have such a problem that people are enjoying Phish right now.   
(blah snipped)
Sorry if that pisses you off. Boo-hoo

Way to bring down the
Level of discourse in here
Try reading the thread

Spot on. Gumbo wasn't attacking anyone with this thread. He was making very rational, well crafted arguments. So has everyone else in this thread, even if I don't agree with them on everything. You have some valid points, but there's no need to come in with personal attacks...

best laugh of the day! thank you. oh man. i'm wiping tears away.

let's just say that whatever the hell gumbo has been saying, it's been said with honest feeling. and i refuse to believe that even half the contributors to this thread actually read all of his post.

I read his whole post, and then got discouraged and started skimming when other people typed paragraphs.  The legit haters & fluffers need to just start copy/pasting  to all threads, because every thread has the same argument developing.  I mean, its a bitch that everyone's cycle synced up again just in time for superballix, and I understand that Oprah isn't on anymore, and I understand "when the red river flows, take the dirt road," but a bunch of people need to chew up some midol and stop being all butt-hurt.  I pass out at shows AND like Umphrey's McGee, you don't see me getting too bothered by other people's perception of a shared experience.

<edit>  even I did it.  replying to a gumbo thread just inspires long-winded responses, doesn't it.

I hate every band except phish.

My popcorn brain keeps me from being able to read any post longer than "This".

Quote from: Hicks on July 06, 2011, 07:15:46 PM
My popcorn brain keeps me from being able to read any post longer than "This".

THAT

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
I did not discover Phish until 2006. I believe the NYE '95 and Island Tour releases were around this time because a lot of people were talking about them and I decided to check them out

Me either! I remember waiting til my parents went to sleep, then I'd sneak out of the house to smoke weed and listen to 12-31-95 on my car stereo. High school was a blast.

Quote from: phil on July 06, 2011, 08:12:38 PM

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
I did not discover Phish until 2006. I believe the NYE '95 and Island Tour releases were around this time because a lot of people were talking about them and I decided to check them out

Me either! I remember waiting til my parents went to sleep, then I'd sneak out of the house to smoke weed and listen to 12-31-85 on my car stereo. High school was a blast.

Sneak out? Amateur. My brother and I used to hang out our windows and fire up the tin foil bowl. Stay classy, San Diego.

Quote from: phil on July 06, 2011, 08:12:38 PM

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
I did not discover Phish until 2006. I believe the NYE '95 and Island Tour releases were around this time because a lot of people were talking about them and I decided to check them out

Me either! I remember waiting til my parents went to sleep, then I'd sneak out of the house to smoke weed and listen to 12-31-85 on my car stereo. High school was a blast.

That's some strong high school weed

Quote from: sophist on July 06, 2011, 10:19:18 AM
I think the demographic and the overall philosophy of the crowd impacts the band's playing directly. <snip>

you know for a long time I've been flirting with the idea that Phish is way more like Panic now in terms of their live shows, the difference being Panic knows how to play proper segues. :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Being sober at shows I hope I am in a good position to gauge the crowds energy, and the reasoning running through Sophist's post is absolutely correct: people go apeshit for the rawk, and appear more chill or even outright disinterested in the jammier parts. For example, there were many times this past weekend I found myself screaming at the band when a sick jam would start, or any of the band members would make a choice that excited me (page joining trey in this plinko jam during the golden age I'm listening to right now come to mind), and I might get an askew glance or two, or a look of confusion from another phan, not totally sure why i was shouting with joy when there was no epic rawk peak going on.

I have literally two shows of 1.0 experience in 2000, so I'm in no position to judge "how it was" during 1.0, and even the few 2.0 shows I caught I was way to fucked up to make a real call. Maybe the masses always dug the rawk jam, and the extended improvisation was always just for the super phan.

One thing I'm sure of is that the 'paug does not an accurate cross section of the phan base make. The older heads I know who did tour a lot in the mid to late 90s think Phish is playing awesome right now, and they express very little concern for the lack of jamming. I think most people are just stoked Phish is playing shows and getting most of the notes right, and are happy to be at the party.

I will say this: when I'm at a Phish show and the lights go down, I still get this feeling like anything is possible. Tech rehearsals and the few extended improvisations this summer prove that jamming is still possible. The only question left is do you have the patience to wait for it to happen?

I have the patience because I like the party! :banana:

Before I get to the meat of the question, I have to lol at gumbo, playing vet to some teenagers.
Of all the people to give young kids grief for being excited about songs that they heard at a show. 
Gaaaaaah, omgwtfzipzapdoodaa.......payjor...........etc.  "I don't know how many times ive seen them," sure dude. 
I'll tell you... a handful of 3.0.

Another big lol at the fact that you were disappointed in these 'kids' for not being able to tell you that they were playing 46 Days, when you didn't know yourself.

Anyway, I think the theory that phish is playing like they do, because the whole crowd is 'kidz that luv rawk peak', is utter bullshit.  There have always been young kids at shows, always.  I was one, you were one, we all were one.   Did you know the entire phish catalog at your first show?  Doubt it, unless your first was 09 or on.  Does mike go out on his cart and report back to trey, "lots of young kids out there, I bet they want to hear rock peaks!"  No, that doesn't even make sense.  Younger folks coming to shows who may not know that much about them know they are supposed be jam kings;  they are not infamous for songs like zero.

Since when do 'kids want phish rock peaks?'  it's a made up dichotomy.  Plenty of other rock bands out there for that fix.  They are startup hippie kids who want to hear the legendary phish do some legendary things.

Does phish  feed off audience energy?  Of course.  Any performer on any  stage ever has.  Do you think trey can see a handful of people walking to the bathroom at any point in any night when he steps out of the comfort zone and thinks, "well, THAT dude is going to piss, better peak this shit so he wont leave!"  No.  that's just as stupid.  Audience reaction happens during peaks naturally, always has.  When they jam is when the audience gets quiet and boogies.  I haven't seen a shortage of boogieing in 3.0, except maybe during TTE, which is why its on the shelf.  I really think its just the way trey wants to play right now.

Phish jams have always come to a peak.  Its their thing.  One of my fav yem's, 12/31/93, is straight peakage.  Read through some of my show club reviews, especially in my fav year of '95, and you will read me say, "another false peak" quite often. 

Imo, they didn't want to pick up where they left off, in drug induced drawn out jams that didn't go anywhere.  They went back to square one, the drawing board,  ie lots of songs, rocked hard, with glimpses of big jams, and build on that for when it feels right.  Trey has said the same recently in respects to getting back to basics.  And as far as his other quotes about 'not wanting to become a caricature or nostalgia act,' that was the voice of an addict grasping for things to blame on why his life had become unmanageable and he had to quit because it was all blowing up in his face.

Phish is not a nostalgia act.  They write new tunes, play variations on old ones every night, find inspiration in other bands and play their tunes, have a blast, and still throw a big party everynight , like they have been doing since their first.

 :clap: To all that have participated and have kept this civil and very interesting. I personally have to agree a little bit with everybody. I love going to the shows. They are just a fun ass time. and the peaks are fun. but i also think that although this new direction of the band isn't that bad it's not 95. Shit thought who doesn't change over time. if you don't try and reinvent yourself as a band you just end up like fucking Judas Priest. and they fucking blow. So even though this current Phish is not the jammed out Stuff we love, they are in a way reinventing what they once did.

I think they should start listening to each other first. I wouldn't mind short tight jams if they were listening to each other and playing them well. BUt they still just don't listen. In that interview with Trey he says how they should start doing the listening exercises again. I couldn't agree more so. As a musician, listening to and feeling out what your other band mates are doing is the most important part. even if your not doing an intricate solo. just paying chords, locking up, knowing when to stop and when to speed up and all that shit is very important and to me is a little more important then dropping huge 20+ jams every night. I mean, i wouldn't mind that, but i wanna hear them listening to each other. 

Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on July 07, 2011, 12:17:00 AM
Before I get to the meat of the question, I have to lol at gumbo, playing vet to some teenagers.
Of all the people to give young kids grief for being excited about songs that they heard at a show. 
Gaaaaaah, omgwtfzipzapdoodaa.......payjor...........etc.  "I don't know how many times ive seen them," sure dude. 
I'll tell you... a handful of 3.0.

Another big lol at the fact that you were disappointed in these 'kids' for not being able to tell you that they were playing 46 Days, when you didn't know yourself.

Anyway, I think the theory that phish is playing like they do, because the whole crowd is 'kidz that luv rawk peak', is utter bullshit.  There have always been young kids at shows, always.  I was one, you were one, we all were one.   Did you know the entire phish catalog at your first show?  Doubt it, unless your first was 09 or on.  Does mike go out on his cart and report back to trey, "lots of young kids out there, I bet they want to hear rock peaks!"  No, that doesn't even make sense.  Younger folks coming to shows who may not know that much about them know they are supposed be jam kings;  they are not infamous for songs like zero.

Since when do 'kids want phish rock peaks?'  it's a made up dichotomy.  Plenty of other rock bands out there for that fix.  They are startup hippie kids who want to hear the legendary phish do some legendary things.

Does phish  feed off audience energy?  Of course.  Any performer on any  stage ever has.  Do you think trey can see a handful of people walking to the bathroom at any point in any night when he steps out of the comfort zone and thinks, "well, THAT dude is going to piss, better peak this shit so he wont leave!"  No.  that's just as stupid.  Audience reaction happens during peaks naturally, always has.  When they jam is when the audience gets quiet and boogies.  I haven't seen a shortage of boogieing in 3.0, except maybe during TTE, which is why its on the shelf.  I really think its just the way trey wants to play right now.

Phish jams have always come to a peak.  Its their thing.  One of my fav yem's, 12/31/93, is straight peakage.  Read through some of my show club reviews, especially in my fav year of '95, and you will read me say, "another false peak" quite often. 

Imo, they didn't want to pick up where they left off, in drug induced drawn out jams that didn't go anywhere.  They went back to square one, the drawing board,  ie lots of songs, rocked hard, with glimpses of big jams, and build on that for when it feels right.  Trey has said the same recently in respects to getting back to basics.  And as far as his other quotes about 'not wanting to become a caricature or nostalgia act,' that was the voice of an addict grasping for things to blame on why his life had become unmanageable and he had to quit because it was all blowing up in his face.

Phish is not a nostalgia act.  They write new tunes, play variations on old ones every night, find inspiration in other bands and play their tunes, have a blast, and still throw a big party everynight , like they have been doing since their first.

well said, sir.

the crowd is no older or younger or more or less attentive than it ever was once they started playing large amphitheaters and arenas on the reg. 

people like us have always been the exception. 

half the time trey's got blinding lights shining in his eyes, if youre not in the first few rows he aint watching you break it down during tweeprise or walk off for a beer during the horseforce.  and if you are in the first few rows, he's only watching you break it down during tweeprise if youve got breasts.   :evil:

Quote from: guyforget on July 07, 2011, 03:16:46 AM
the crowd is no older or younger or more or less attentive than it ever was once they started playing large amphitheaters and arenas on the reg. 

people like us have always been the exception. 

half the time trey's got blinding lights shining in his eyes, if youre not in the first few rows he aint watching you break it down during tweeprise or walk off for a beer during the horseforce.  and if you are in the first few rows, he's only watching you break it down during tweeprise if youve got breasts.   :evil:

like we care...  :roll:  i for one, wouldn't  :-D

Quote from: cactusfan on July 07, 2011, 02:24:54 AM

Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on July 07, 2011, 12:17:00 AM
Before I get to the meat of the question, I have to lol at gumbo, playing vet to some teenagers.
Of all the people to give young kids grief for being excited about songs that they heard at a show. 
Gaaaaaah, omgwtfzipzapdoodaa.......payjor...........etc.  "I don't know how many times ive seen them," sure dude. 
I'll tell you... a handful of 3.0.

Another big lol at the fact that you were disappointed in these 'kids' for not being able to tell you that they were playing 46 Days, when you didn't know yourself.

Anyway, I think the theory that phish is playing like they do, because the whole crowd is 'kidz that luv rawk peak', is utter bullshit.  There have always been young kids at shows, always.  I was one, you were one, we all were one.   Did you know the entire phish catalog at your first show?  Doubt it, unless your first was 09 or on.  Does mike go out on his cart and report back to trey, "lots of young kids out there, I bet they want to hear rock peaks!"  No, that doesn't even make sense.  Younger folks coming to shows who may not know that much about them know they are supposed be jam kings;  they are not infamous for songs like zero.

Since when do 'kids want phish rock peaks?'  it's a made up dichotomy.  Plenty of other rock bands out there for that fix.  They are startup hippie kids who want to hear the legendary phish do some legendary things.

Does phish  feed off audience energy?  Of course.  Any performer on any  stage ever has.  Do you think trey can see a handful of people walking to the bathroom at any point in any night when he steps out of the comfort zone and thinks, "well, THAT dude is going to piss, better peak this shit so he wont leave!"  No.  that's just as stupid.  Audience reaction happens during peaks naturally, always has.  When they jam is when the audience gets quiet and boogies.  I haven't seen a shortage of boogieing in 3.0, except maybe during TTE, which is why its on the shelf.  I really think its just the way trey wants to play right now.

Phish jams have always come to a peak.  Its their thing.  One of my fav yem's, 12/31/93, is straight peakage.  Read through some of my show club reviews, especially in my fav year of '95, and you will read me say, "another false peak" quite often. 

Imo, they didn't want to pick up where they left off, in drug induced drawn out jams that didn't go anywhere.  They went back to square one, the drawing board,  ie lots of songs, rocked hard, with glimpses of big jams, and build on that for when it feels right.  Trey has said the same recently in respects to getting back to basics.  And as far as his other quotes about 'not wanting to become a caricature or nostalgia act,' that was the voice of an addict grasping for things to blame on why his life had become unmanageable and he had to quit because it was all blowing up in his face.

Phish is not a nostalgia act.  They write new tunes, play variations on old ones every night, find inspiration in other bands and play their tunes, have a blast, and still throw a big party everynight , like they have been doing since their first.

well said, sir.

i concur.

I think it's fucking hilarious that two people posted Trey isn't watching the crowd after I post an interview with Trey and he exclaims he does watch the crowd.  That's what he has always done.  From the moment I first laid my eyes on Trey at a show to this very point in time that's who I watch at Phish.  Never anyone else.  His trademark move is picking one person in the back of the room and playing to them, and the theory is that if you get that person off, then you get everyone who is in front of that person.  This is what Trey does fellas.  It's what separates him from 99% of the other guitarists out there.  He understands how to play the room, not just play the music.  Playing the room is one of the best tactics you can learn as a musician.  You read the crowd and you react to it.  For the garden run, I sat with Scott, Dave, Wendell, George, Kelly, and JJ, behind the stage each night.  I watched Trey from behind (no homo), and I could see him looking towards the back of the Garden.  I could see him scanning the crowd as he would turn his head.  More than anything, I could see the fucking crowd reacting, and I watched the crowd, I studied how he was trying to control the crowd.   

Trey quote on crowd watching: 

QuoteTA: Today what I do is—I do this every night we play—I have a little quiet moment where I picture some guy having a fight with his girlfriend, getting into his car—the battery's dead—then he gets to the parking lot and it's full. Meets up with his friends. Comes into the show. I try to picture this one person having their own experience, and I picture them way in the back of the room. And I try to remember how insignificant my experience is, and how people's experiences with music are their own thing. We put it out there, and if it's of service to someone, great, but I try to get away from the idea that it's even starting from us. And when you do that listening-exercise stuff, when I actually get into a moment where I'm only listening, I find that the music gets so much... beyond us. And I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience. It always feels more resonant if I can get my hands off it. If all four of us were here, they'd all be saying the same thing. It's great as long as you listen to anybody but yourself. Anything but yourself.

from here (http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=18516.0)

Quote from: postjack on July 06, 2011, 09:05:50 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 06, 2011, 10:19:18 AM
I think the demographic and the overall philosophy of the crowd impacts the band's playing directly. <snip>

you know for a long time I've been flirting with the idea that Phish is way more like Panic now in terms of their live shows, the difference being Panic knows how to play proper segues. :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

It's not going to be a popular opinion, but it amazes me how phish phans that do dig this rock peak version of Phish also hate on Panic when Panic does it much better.  They're the better rock band.  What comes to my mind is seeing RJ and Blat get down to YSBG at that Charlottesville show I caught last year.  It was your typical YSBG, but they were digging and grooving the rawk funk that panic was playing, and to me, it's the same shit Phish is churning out right now.  Which is kind of why I have this theory that Phish has become this generic jam band like the rest of 'em out there. 

I'd also say that the crowds aren't the main reason for this.  Other folks are on point with them being sober, getting back to basics, etc.  It's all those things plus the crowd I think. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM

Quote from: postjack on July 06, 2011, 09:05:50 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 06, 2011, 10:19:18 AM
I think the demographic and the overall philosophy of the crowd impacts the band's playing directly. <snip>

you know for a long time I've been flirting with the idea that Phish is way more like Panic now in terms of their live shows, the difference being Panic knows how to play proper segues. :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

It's not going to be a popular opinion, but it amazes me how phish phans that do dig this rock peak version of Phish also hate on Panic when Panic does it much better.  They're the better rock band.  What comes to my mind is seeing RJ and Blat get down to YSBG at that Charlottesville show I caught last year.  It was your typical YSBG, but they were digging and grooving the rawk funk that panic was playing, and to me, it's the same shit Phish is churning out right now.  Which is kind of why I have this theory that Phish has become this generic jam band like the rest of 'em out there. 

Blat left early.
Intoxication drove all
my actions that night.

Have I re-listened
since I attended that show?
No int'rest at all.

QuoteIt's not going to be a popular opinion, but it amazes me how phish phans that do dig this rock peak version of Phish also hate on Panic when Panic does it much better.  They're the better rock band.

12-02-95 Tweezer says otherwise.

P.S. '95 was full of rawk peaks, people. It's not like it was all "exploration" back then.

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM
I think it's fucking hilarious that two people posted Trey isn't watching the crowd after I post an interview with Trey and he exclaims he does watch the crowd.  That's what he has always done.  From the moment I first laid my eyes on Trey at a show to this very point in time that's who I watch at Phish.  Never anyone else.  His trademark move is picking one person in the back of the room and playing to them, and the theory is that if you get that person off, then you get everyone who is in front of that person. 

i never said trey doesnt watch the crowd, and we have all heard him say things like the above.
what else is he gonna look at.  i dont see how that has any correlation to young kids loving rawk peaks and hating jamz.

please tell me what i can do, in case i am that person he picks to look at, so that i can conduct trey into an epic jam.
is there a secret dance move or signal i can show him?  it would be quite the burden to have the whole show rest on my actions, and i dont want to fuck it up.

Quote from: rowjimmy on July 07, 2011, 09:14:39 AM

Blat left early.
Intoxication drove all
my actions that night.

Have I re-listened
since I attended that show?
No int'rest at all.

Excellent use of the 2 syllable version of interest  :clap:

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 09:39:33 AM

QuoteIt's not going to be a popular opinion, but it amazes me how phish phans that do dig this rock peak version of Phish also hate on Panic when Panic does it much better.  They're the better rock band.

12-02-95 Tweezer says otherwise.

P.S. '95 was full of rawk peaks, people. It's not like it was all "exploration" back then.

Reading is fundamental dude.  I'm talking about 3.0 phish but thanks for playing. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Reading is fun

Sigworthy

Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on July 07, 2011, 10:03:08 AM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM
I think it's fucking hilarious that two people posted Trey isn't watching the crowd after I post an interview with Trey and he exclaims he does watch the crowd.  That's what he has always done.  From the moment I first laid my eyes on Trey at a show to this very point in time that's who I watch at Phish.  Never anyone else.  His trademark move is picking one person in the back of the room and playing to them, and the theory is that if you get that person off, then you get everyone who is in front of that person. 

i never said trey doesnt watch the crowd, and we have all heard him say things like the above.
what else is he gonna look at.  i dont see how that has any correlation to young kids loving rawk peaks and hating jamz.

please tell me what i can do, in case i am that person he picks to look at, so that i can conduct trey into an epic jam.
is there a secret dance move or signal i can show him?  it would be quite the burden to have the whole show rest on my actions, and i dont want to fuck it up.

If you think I'm suggesting that you or the bulk of the crowd changing their actions would create epic jams, again, you don't get my point.  It's not about that.  It's never been about trying to change what they're doing.  What I want from them and what they do are mutually exclusive. 

Quote from: rowjimmy on July 06, 2011, 04:24:11 PM

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 04:06:14 PM
I should've left DMB out of this.  I understand if I've lost all credibility. Carry on.

:clap:

Wait, I don't get a haiku?

Quote from: batleon on July 07, 2011, 10:47:44 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on July 06, 2011, 04:24:11 PM

Quote from: batleon on July 06, 2011, 04:06:14 PM
I should've left DMB out of this.  I understand if I've lost all credibility. Carry on.

:clap:

Wait, I don't get a haiku?

the icon is clapping in haiku meter

I love how Gumbo has exactly (1) post in this thread.

I think a reason many of us "haters" hate on the stuff they are doing is this (and this is just my opinion, which is like an asshole....everyone has one, some are just tighter than others):

I've got no problem with the rawk peak.....I've got no problem with well played songs.......I've got no problem whatsoever with ambient sections......I've got no problem with jamming/aimless noodling/noize.....

What I have a problem with is the formatting that appears to have reared its ugly head with them....Sure there is some spontaneity, in regards to song selection....but the format of the sets, it bothers me. It seems cookie-cutter anymore.....ya know what I mean? Sure, go back in time and you can make the same argument....Mike's Groove....etc.....but things nowadays......DWD opens set 2, Antelope/Zero closes set 1.....It's getting too cookie cutter.....

They're having fun...which is all a part of finding themselves again, I get that. 100%. It's hard to NOT have fun at a show because of the fact that it is what it is....a traveling circus....but that isn't the only component of a concert.....the MUSIC.....they are out there playing songs, which is ok when they are played well.....but where is the MUSIC that I came to hear them create? In my opinion, they haven't really played any MUSIC since they've returned....Even back when they were rawk peaking the piss outta things (ie- when Trey could actually pull it off ability wise 91-95) there was always something MUSICAL going on....Now it feels like there's a format....and it (to me anyways) feels like MUSIC isn't an important part of that format. Rawking a song till it gets the ripcord is the norm....or it just teeters into ambient noize to "segue" into the next song.....

The real interesting thing about that though, is back then there was a format to an extent.....Trey has said it numerous times.....meticulously going over setlists to make sure songs flowed from one key to the next.....creating tension and release.....telling a MUSICAL story....So I guess them NOT having a format has kinda put them into a rut so to speak....only as far as the format of their sets and the lack of cohesion from one song to the next.....I truly feel like this is why the sets are all over the place and there's no opportunity to jam....

....they have NO CLUE where they are going from one song to the next.

...Oh....and my other problem is execution.....waaaaaaaaay too many sour notes and huge miscues......

Quote from: Marmar on July 07, 2011, 11:36:24 AM
The real interesting thing about that though, is back then there was a format to an extent.....Trey has said it numerous times.....meticulously going over setlists to make sure songs flowed from one key to the next.....creating tension and release.....telling a MUSICAL story....So I guess them NOT having a format has kinda put them into a rut so to speak....only as far as the format of their sets and the lack of cohesion from one song to the next.....I truly feel like this is why the sets are all over the place and there's no opportunity to jam....

Yep. There's still spontaneity, but it's the kind that leads to No Quarter > Party Time

Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on July 07, 2011, 12:17:00 AM
Before I get to the meat of the question, I have to lol at gumbo, playing vet to some teenagers.
Of all the people to give young kids grief for being excited about songs that they heard at a show. 
Gaaaaaah, omgwtfzipzapdoodaa.......payjor...........etc.  "I don't know how many times ive seen them," sure dude. 
I'll tell you... a handful of 3.0.

Another big lol at the fact that you were disappointed in these 'kids' for not being able to tell you that they were playing 46 Days, when you didn't know yourself.

Anyway, I think the theory that phish is playing like they do, because the whole crowd is 'kidz that luv rawk peak', is utter bullshit.  There have always been young kids at shows, always.  I was one, you were one, we all were one.   Did you know the entire phish catalog at your first show?  Doubt it, unless your first was 09 or on.  Does mike go out on his cart and report back to trey, "lots of young kids out there, I bet they want to hear rock peaks!"  No, that doesn't even make sense.  Younger folks coming to shows who may not know that much about them know they are supposed be jam kings;  they are not infamous for songs like zero.

Since when do 'kids want phish rock peaks?'  it's a made up dichotomy.  Plenty of other rock bands out there for that fix.  They are startup hippie kids who want to hear the legendary phish do some legendary things.

Does phish  feed off audience energy?  Of course.  Any performer on any  stage ever has.  Do you think trey can see a handful of people walking to the bathroom at any point in any night when he steps out of the comfort zone and thinks, "well, THAT dude is going to piss, better peak this shit so he wont leave!"  No.  that's just as stupid.  Audience reaction happens during peaks naturally, always has.  When they jam is when the audience gets quiet and boogies.  I haven't seen a shortage of boogieing in 3.0, except maybe during TTE, which is why its on the shelf.  I really think its just the way trey wants to play right now.

Phish jams have always come to a peak.  Its their thing.  One of my fav yem's, 12/31/93, is straight peakage.  Read through some of my show club reviews, especially in my fav year of '95, and you will read me say, "another false peak" quite often. 

Imo, they didn't want to pick up where they left off, in drug induced drawn out jams that didn't go anywhere.  They went back to square one, the drawing board,  ie lots of songs, rocked hard, with glimpses of big jams, and build on that for when it feels right.  Trey has said the same recently in respects to getting back to basics.  And as far as his other quotes about 'not wanting to become a caricature or nostalgia act,' that was the voice of an addict grasping for things to blame on why his life had become unmanageable and he had to quit because it was all blowing up in his face.

Phish is not a nostalgia act.  They write new tunes, play variations on old ones every night, find inspiration in other bands and play their tunes, have a blast, and still throw a big party everynight , like they have been doing since their first.

:clap:

Well said, I agree with just about everything.

The band is still spewing with musicality.

The most basic "rawk peak" jam out of, say 46 Days, is still CHALKED FULL of impressive musical ideas.  There's TONS of bands that do the rawk peak thing, but none of those bands do it as well as Phish. 

Any musician should be able to hear this.  The 4 of them are still playing off of each other with incredible listening skills.  The fills that Mike throws in right before the HUUUGGGEE peaks are phenomenal.  The way Fishman/Trey seemingly become one connected unit together is nothing short of amazing.

Seriously impressive musicianship is still happening.  It's not like 2009 came around and all of a sudden they all suck @ their instruments....

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 07, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
The band is still spewing with musicality.

The most basic "rawk peak" jam out of, say 46 Days, is still CHALKED FULL of impressive musical ideas.  There's TONS of bands that do the rawk peak thing, but none of those bands do it as well as Phish. 

Any musician should be able to hear this.  The 4 of them are still playing off of each other with incredible listening skills.  The fills that Mike throws in right before the HUUUGGGEE peaks are phenomenal.  The way Fishman/Trey seemingly become one connected unit together is nothing short of amazing.

Seriously impressive musicianship is still happening.  It's not like 2009 came around and all of a sudden they all suck @ their instruments....

I get what you are saying but this philosophy is sure nto working on their segues.  if they listent o each other, they should be able to have a smooth segue.  there have been a few in 3.0 but they have been few and far between.

it sort of supports Art's comment about them not knowing where they are going from song to song.

the smooth segue is what I really miss the most.

Quote from: bvaz on July 07, 2011, 12:15:30 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 07, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
The band is still spewing with musicality.

The most basic "rawk peak" jam out of, say 46 Days, is still CHALKED FULL of impressive musical ideas.  There's TONS of bands that do the rawk peak thing, but none of those bands do it as well as Phish. 

Any musician should be able to hear this.  The 4 of them are still playing off of each other with incredible listening skills.  The fills that Mike throws in right before the HUUUGGGEE peaks are phenomenal.  The way Fishman/Trey seemingly become one connected unit together is nothing short of amazing.

Seriously impressive musicianship is still happening.  It's not like 2009 came around and all of a sudden they all suck @ their instruments....

I get what you are saying but this philosophy is sure nto working on their segues.  if they listent o each other, they should be able to have a smooth segue.  there have been a few in 3.0 but they have been few and far between.

it sort of supports Art's comment about them not knowing where they are going from song to song.

the smooth segue is what I really miss the most.

Yeah, I feel ya. The segue problems seem to occur from a lack of patience (by Trey)

They're listening to eachother, but the second that Trey hears something that makes him want to move on -- he does so..... un-smoothly

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM
I think it's fucking hilarious that two people posted Trey isn't watching the crowd after I post an interview with Trey and he exclaims he does watch the crowd.  That's what he has always done.  From the moment I first laid my eyes on Trey at a show to this very point in time that's who I watch at Phish.  Never anyone else.  His trademark move is picking one person in the back of the room and playing to them, and the theory is that if you get that person off, then you get everyone who is in front of that person. 

i didnt say exactly that he didnt watch people.  of course he watches people when he can see them, what the hell else does he have to look at unless he goes all eddie van halen and stands w/ his back to the crowd.  what i did say was that half the time he's got blinding lights shining into his eyes when he's looking out into a dark room. i dont think that anyone could really argue that he doesnt.  you know what its like to stand in a lighted area trying to look out into the dark, right?  you cant see shit. 

and, not to nitpick, but in the quote you cited, trey mentioned that he judges crowd reactions by what he hears, not sees. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM

Trey quote on crowd watching: 

QuoteAnd I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience.

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Reading is fundamental dude.

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 07, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
The band is still spewing with musicality.

The most basic "rawk peak" jam out of, say 46 Days, is still CHALKED FULL of impressive musical ideas.  There's TONS of bands that do the rawk peak thing, but none of those bands do it as well as Phish. 

Any musician should be able to hear this.  The 4 of them are still playing off of each other with incredible listening skills.  The fills that Mike throws in right before the HUUUGGGEE peaks are phenomenal.  The way Fishman/Trey seemingly become one connected unit together is nothing short of amazing.

Seriously impressive musicianship is still happening.  It's not like 2009 came around and all of a sudden they all suck @ their instruments....

And there you have it, good enough is good enough apparently.

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 12:51:33 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 07, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
The band is still spewing with musicality.

The most basic "rawk peak" jam out of, say 46 Days, is still CHALKED FULL of impressive musical ideas.  There's TONS of bands that do the rawk peak thing, but none of those bands do it as well as Phish. 

Any musician should be able to hear this.  The 4 of them are still playing off of each other with incredible listening skills.  The fills that Mike throws in right before the HUUUGGGEE peaks are phenomenal.  The way Fishman/Trey seemingly become one connected unit together is nothing short of amazing.

Seriously impressive musicianship is still happening.  It's not like 2009 came around and all of a sudden they all suck @ their instruments....

And there you have it, good enough is good enough apparently.

wait..... but..... I......  :frustrated:

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 09:39:33 AM

QuoteIt's not going to be a popular opinion, but it amazes me how phish phans that do dig this rock peak version of Phish also hate on Panic when Panic does it much better.  They're the better rock band.

12-02-95 Tweezer says otherwise.

P.S. '95 was full of rawk peaks, people. It's not like it was all "exploration" back then.

Reading is fundamental dude.  I'm talking about 3.0 phish but thanks for playing.

K. Thanks for playing...the part of a defensive d-bag.

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 01:06:01 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 09:39:33 AM

QuoteIt's not going to be a popular opinion, but it amazes me how phish phans that do dig this rock peak version of Phish also hate on Panic when Panic does it much better.  They're the better rock band.

12-02-95 Tweezer says otherwise.

P.S. '95 was full of rawk peaks, people. It's not like it was all "exploration" back then.

Reading is fundamental dude.  I'm talking about 3.0 phish but thanks for playing.

K. Thanks for playing...the part of a defensive d-bag.

So I'm a d-bag for also being a smart ass?  Right......
You jumped to some conclusion because you were giddy with anticipation of "pwning" somebody on the internet.  I'd say the douche level is equal at the very least. 

Quote from: guyforget on July 07, 2011, 12:48:23 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM
I think it's fucking hilarious that two people posted Trey isn't watching the crowd after I post an interview with Trey and he exclaims he does watch the crowd.  That's what he has always done.  From the moment I first laid my eyes on Trey at a show to this very point in time that's who I watch at Phish.  Never anyone else.  His trademark move is picking one person in the back of the room and playing to them, and the theory is that if you get that person off, then you get everyone who is in front of that person. 

i didnt say exactly that he didnt watch people.  of course he watches people when he can see them, what the hell else does he have to look at unless he goes all eddie van halen and stands w/ his back to the crowd.  what i did say was that half the time he's got blinding lights shining into his eyes when he's looking out into a dark room. i dont think that anyone could really argue that he doesnt.  you know what its like to stand in a lighted area trying to look out into the dark, right?  you cant see shit. 

and, not to nitpick, but in the quote you cited, trey mentioned that he judges crowd reactions by what he hears, not sees. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM

Trey quote on crowd watching: 

QuoteAnd I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience.

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Reading is fundamental dude.

I've already commented on the lights.  Have I played for 12,000+ people?  No sir.  But I have played on a stage with a nice light set up, and I've been able to see fine and see what the crowd was doing.  I've also sat behind the stage a few times, and yes, at times the lights do even blare my vision, but there were also times when I could see clearly past the lights and make out facial expressions from people in front of the stage.  I'd say the same thing happens with the band.  Especially when CK hits the white lights and raises them to the top of the venue. 

If you want to be nit picky and say it's just him listening, then fine, it only strengthens my argument as well.  Either way, he's paying attention to what's going on with the crowd. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 02:00:18 PM

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 01:06:01 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 09:39:33 AM

QuoteIt's not going to be a popular opinion, but it amazes me how phish phans that do dig this rock peak version of Phish also hate on Panic when Panic does it much better.  They're the better rock band.

12-02-95 Tweezer says otherwise.

P.S. '95 was full of rawk peaks, people. It's not like it was all "exploration" back then.

Reading is fundamental dude.  I'm talking about 3.0 phish but thanks for playing.

K. Thanks for playing...the part of a defensive d-bag.

So I'm a d-bag for also being a smart ass?  Right......
You jumped to some conclusion because you were giddy with anticipation of "pwning" somebody on the internet.  I'd say the douche level is equal at the very least. 

Quote from: guyforget on July 07, 2011, 12:48:23 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM
I think it's fucking hilarious that two people posted Trey isn't watching the crowd after I post an interview with Trey and he exclaims he does watch the crowd.  That's what he has always done.  From the moment I first laid my eyes on Trey at a show to this very point in time that's who I watch at Phish.  Never anyone else.  His trademark move is picking one person in the back of the room and playing to them, and the theory is that if you get that person off, then you get everyone who is in front of that person. 

i didnt say exactly that he didnt watch people.  of course he watches people when he can see them, what the hell else does he have to look at unless he goes all eddie van halen and stands w/ his back to the crowd.  what i did say was that half the time he's got blinding lights shining into his eyes when he's looking out into a dark room. i dont think that anyone could really argue that he doesnt.  you know what its like to stand in a lighted area trying to look out into the dark, right?  you cant see shit. 

and, not to nitpick, but in the quote you cited, trey mentioned that he judges crowd reactions by what he hears, not sees. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM

Trey quote on crowd watching: 

QuoteAnd I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience.

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Reading is fundamental dude.

I've already commented on the lights.  Have I played for 12,000+ people?  No sir.  But I have played on a stage with a nice light set up, and I've been able to see fine and see what the crowd was doing.  I've also sat behind the stage a few times, and yes, at times the lights do even blare my vision, but there were also times when I could see clearly past the lights and make out facial expressions from people in front of the stage.  I'd say the same thing happens with the band.  Especially when CK hits the white lights and raises them to the top of the venue. 

If you want to be nit picky and say it's just him listening, then fine, it only strengthens my argument as well.  Either way, he's paying attention to what's going on with the crowd.

I am man enough to admit it, you are 100% right. I was backed into a corner and lashed out.  And you "pwned" me in very funny way taboot. Well done. I'll take that douche crown now and shut the fuck up.

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 02:37:32 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 02:00:18 PM

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 01:06:01 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Quote from: Nobes on July 07, 2011, 09:39:33 AM

QuoteIt's not going to be a popular opinion, but it amazes me how phish phans that do dig this rock peak version of Phish also hate on Panic when Panic does it much better.  They're the better rock band.

12-02-95 Tweezer says otherwise.

P.S. '95 was full of rawk peaks, people. It's not like it was all "exploration" back then.

Reading is fundamental dude.  I'm talking about 3.0 phish but thanks for playing.

K. Thanks for playing...the part of a defensive d-bag.

So I'm a d-bag for also being a smart ass?  Right......
You jumped to some conclusion because you were giddy with anticipation of "pwning" somebody on the internet.  I'd say the douche level is equal at the very least. 

Quote from: guyforget on July 07, 2011, 12:48:23 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM
I think it's fucking hilarious that two people posted Trey isn't watching the crowd after I post an interview with Trey and he exclaims he does watch the crowd.  That's what he has always done.  From the moment I first laid my eyes on Trey at a show to this very point in time that's who I watch at Phish.  Never anyone else.  His trademark move is picking one person in the back of the room and playing to them, and the theory is that if you get that person off, then you get everyone who is in front of that person. 

i didnt say exactly that he didnt watch people.  of course he watches people when he can see them, what the hell else does he have to look at unless he goes all eddie van halen and stands w/ his back to the crowd.  what i did say was that half the time he's got blinding lights shining into his eyes when he's looking out into a dark room. i dont think that anyone could really argue that he doesnt.  you know what its like to stand in a lighted area trying to look out into the dark, right?  you cant see shit. 

and, not to nitpick, but in the quote you cited, trey mentioned that he judges crowd reactions by what he hears, not sees. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 08:46:06 AM

Trey quote on crowd watching: 

QuoteAnd I can tell that from the reaction I hear from the audience.

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM

Reading is fundamental dude.

I've already commented on the lights.  Have I played for 12,000+ people?  No sir.  But I have played on a stage with a nice light set up, and I've been able to see fine and see what the crowd was doing.  I've also sat behind the stage a few times, and yes, at times the lights do even blare my vision, but there were also times when I could see clearly past the lights and make out facial expressions from people in front of the stage.  I'd say the same thing happens with the band.  Especially when CK hits the white lights and raises them to the top of the venue. 

If you want to be nit picky and say it's just him listening, then fine, it only strengthens my argument as well.  Either way, he's paying attention to what's going on with the crowd.

I am man enough to admit it, you are 100% right. I was backed into a corner and lashed out.  And you "pwned" me in very funny way taboot. Well done. I'll take that douche crown now and shut the fuck up.

fwiw on the original comment, I agree with it 100%.  I don't listent o panic so I am not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the panic part.

for me, it's not that other bands have gone up the ladder for me, just phish has come down to the level of other bands.  and the reality is you still need to do some planning to go see phsih while other bands can be seen without much planning.  it is just less of a hassle to see a "lesser" tier jamband that is no longer that much lower musically (in my opinion of course).

but then again, it is not much of a surprise that I agree with an opinion that is not popular but it is my true opinion.

I didn't pwn anything.  Nor was my comment very funny either.  Nor did I say anyone deserves a douche crown.  It's the internet, lighten the fuck up.  I don't take anything personally here, you shouldn't either. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:30:57 PM
I didn't pwn anything.  Nor was my comment very funny either.  Nor did I say anyone deserves a douche crown.  It's the internet, lighten the fuck up.  I don't take anything personally here, you shouldn't either.

Hey now, dude was trying to make nice.

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 03:32:58 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:30:57 PM
I didn't pwn anything.  Nor was my comment very funny either.  Nor did I say anyone deserves a douche crown.  It's the internet, lighten the fuck up.  I don't take anything personally here, you shouldn't either.

Hey now, dude was trying to make nice.

I don't see myself as being mean here.  I'm basically saying no reason to call yourself or anyone else a douche.  The style here is dry humor.  Roll with it.  Is all I'm getting at. 

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:34:39 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 03:32:58 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:30:57 PM
I didn't pwn anything.  Nor was my comment very funny either.  Nor did I say anyone deserves a douche crown.  It's the internet, lighten the fuck up.  I don't take anything personally here, you shouldn't either.

Hey now, dude was trying to make nice.

I don't see myself as being mean here.  I'm basically saying no reason to call yourself or anyone else a douche.  The style here is dry humor.  Roll with it.  Is all I'm getting at.

I'm just saying that "lighten the fuck up" isn't the nicest response to what was basically an apology.

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 03:36:18 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:34:39 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 03:32:58 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:30:57 PM
I didn't pwn anything.  Nor was my comment very funny either.  Nor did I say anyone deserves a douche crown.  It's the internet, lighten the fuck up.  I don't take anything personally here, you shouldn't either.

Hey now, dude was trying to make nice.

I don't see myself as being mean here.  I'm basically saying no reason to call yourself or anyone else a douche.  The style here is dry humor.  Roll with it.  Is all I'm getting at.

I'm just saying that "lighten the fuck up" isn't the nicest response to what was basically an apology.

You're right.  I picked the wrong wording there.  That was my bad.  My sailor's mouth got the best of me. 

OK, everyone, I went out to the drugstore for us all...


(http://shingkings.com/images/vagisil.jpg)


PS Don't ever image search "sand in vagina," even with a South Park or Cartman keyword added.

Quote from: sunrisevt on July 07, 2011, 03:44:26 PM
OK, everyone, I went out to the drugstore for us all...


(http://shingkings.com/images/vagisil.jpg)


PS Don't ever image search "sand in vagina," even with a South Park or Cartman keyword added.

I find this hilarious. 

Quote from: sunrisevt on July 07, 2011, 03:44:26 PM
PS Don't ever image search "sand in vagina," even with a South Park or Cartman keyword added.

Must...resist...image search. Fuck too late:

(http://www.swedishseoul.com/pictures/funny/18/sand-in-vagina.jpg)

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 07, 2011, 04:09:01 PM

Quote from: sunrisevt on July 07, 2011, 03:44:26 PM
PS Don't ever image search "sand in vagina," even with a South Park or Cartman keyword added.

Must...resist...image search. Fuck too late:

(http://www.swedishseoul.com/pictures/funny/18/sand-in-vagina.jpg)

Lol, Chris Pontius ftw.

The mythical clitorides 
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RRcx_HHuR1g/Sf5WLV4QYHI/AAAAAAAAAJs/CcNzIGfOguI/s400/Forgetting+Sarah+Marshall+-+Chess+Sex.jpg)

this hate makes me yawn.

Ive been listening to the same broken record from you all since 09.

thanks goodnight.

You're turning in at least 3 minutes early...

Quote from: JustJezmund on July 07, 2011, 04:16:45 PM
this hate makes me yawn.

Ive been listening to the same broken record from you all since 09.

thanks goodnight.

Thanks for "contributing"!

Quote from: JustJezmund on July 07, 2011, 04:16:45 PM
this hate makes me yawn.

Ive been listening to the same broken record from you all since 09.

thanks goodnight.

footage from your bedroom:

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 07, 2011, 04:09:01 PM


(http://www.swedishseoul.com/pictures/funny/18/sand-in-vagina.jpg)

well, at least the thread started off with a few positive pages

Quote from: qop24 on July 07, 2011, 04:18:51 PM
well, at least the thread started off with a few positive pages

Yeah, its funny how just a couple pages earlier were talking about how civil this discussion was so far...  That went into the shitter real quick!

Terry

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 04:18:08 PM

Quote from: JustJezmund on July 07, 2011, 04:16:45 PM
this hate makes me yawn.

Ive been listening to the same broken record from you all since 09.

thanks goodnight.

Thanks for "contributing"!

i contribute face to face and in person.

Quote from: qop24 on July 07, 2011, 04:18:51 PM
well, at least the thread started off with a few positive pages

Agreed, even though I am new here, the hate is prevalent, and I am barely familiar with the place.  But hey some is better than none right?

One more thing while it's in my head....

This whole rawk peak thing.....it's been done already....they are beating a dead horse they themselves already whooped the piss out of.....I get that going back to the basics to get a footing and all that.....but for fans to lap it up like it's the first time it's been presented to them disgusts me.

Don't believe me? Go back thru your archives and give em a real listen again....

so I believe that is what irks me (personally) about how they are playing....and how the fans are reacting to it.....it's sloppier than it ever has been, and yet they are placed on an untouchable pedestal like they are the gods of rock who can do no wrong.....fuck that. I'll still listen, I'll MAYBE still go and see em.....but I REFUSE to blindly blow smoke up anyones ass over a 3.0 performance that lacks the oomph they are capable of. I'm not living in the past, I'm looking for the future.....and I eagerly await it....hoping that they "get it" and come out and BLOW my sense of what is MUSIC clear into the outer reaches of space/time.....

But for now....IT ain't happening consistently enough even thru the course of one night.....so till then....

Quote from: JustJezmund on July 07, 2011, 04:20:14 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 04:18:08 PM

Quote from: JustJezmund on July 07, 2011, 04:16:45 PM
this hate makes me yawn.

Ive been listening to the same broken record from you all since 09.

thanks goodnight.

Thanks for "contributing"!

i contribute face to face and in person.

Sweet. . .













wait, why are you here then?

Quote from: twatts likes ghoti on July 07, 2011, 04:19:48 PM

Quote from: qop24 on July 07, 2011, 04:18:51 PM
well, at least the thread started off with a few positive pages

Yeah, its funny how just a couple pages earlier were talking about how civil this discussion was so far...  That went into the shitter real quick!

Terry

It did, however I urge those that are in this thread contributing to keep doing so.  I also urge those that come in to read the thread need to read ALL the pages before you contribute.   Just reacting to the previous post and spewing crappy commentary and attacking each other on the interwebs, while fun, is just unproductive. 

I for one had been ignoring much of the conversations in the Post Show Threads because I felt they were just hate, even though there is serious conversation in them.  I know a few other paugers that have the same sentiment and probably more exist out there. 

Keep this thread civil and not personal.  I have thoroughly enjoyed ever perspective and it is helping me formulate and potentially modify my general opinion of things.

That being said, please keep the vaj jokes cumming.

Quote from: JustJezmund on July 07, 2011, 04:20:14 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 04:18:08 PM

Quote from: JustJezmund on July 07, 2011, 04:16:45 PM
this hate makes me yawn.

Ive been listening to the same broken record from you all since 09.

thanks goodnight.

Thanks for "contributing"!

i contribute face to face and in person.

I love that you and your mom offer the same options...

Quote from: Marmar on July 07, 2011, 04:21:12 PM
One more thing while it's in my head....

This whole rawk peak thing.....it's been done already....they are beating a dead horse they themselves already whooped the piss out of.....I get that going back to the basics to get a footing and all that.....but for fans to lap it up like it's the first time it's been presented to them disgusts me.

Don't believe me? Go back thru your archives and give em a real listen again....

so I believe that is what irks me (personally) about how they are playing....and how the fans are reacting to it.....it's sloppier than it ever has been, and yet they are placed on an untouchable pedestal like they are the gods of rock who can do no wrong.....fuck that. I'll still listen, I'll MAYBE still go and see em.....but I REFUSE to blindly blow smoke up anyones ass over a 3.0 performance that lacks the oomph they are capable of. I'm not living in the past, I'm looking for the future.....and I eagerly await it....hoping that they "get it" and come out and BLOW my sense of what is MUSIC clear into the outer reaches of space/time.....

But for now....IT ain't happening consistently enough even thru the course of one night.....so till then....

I'm with you 100% on this.  It's not that I want what was before either, it's about getting to a place where it's no longer about potential, but about prowess and the level of execution that comes with that. 

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 07, 2011, 04:20:39 PM

Quote from: qop24 on July 07, 2011, 04:18:51 PM
well, at least the thread started off with a few positive pages

Agreed, even though I am new here, the hate is prevalent, and I am barely familiar with the place.  But hey some is better than none right?

Honestly, the internet is going to be where the hardcore phans gather, what do you expect?  Most phans that aren't OCD about this band aren't combing their archives and adding whole tours to their ipods, or constantly searching for shows they haven't heard yet.  With that sort of nature comes that sort of expectation.

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 04:38:16 PM
With that sort of nature comes that sort of expectation.

Did you just plagiarize that cheese-dick "with great power comes great responsibility" line from Spider-Man ?   :wink:

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 07, 2011, 04:20:39 PM

Quote from: qop24 on July 07, 2011, 04:18:51 PM
well, at least the thread started off with a few positive pages

Agreed, even though I am new here, the hate is prevalent, and I am barely familiar with the place.  But hey some is better than none right?

we tried telling you to leave, but you won't listen.

sweet avatar by the way.  I love old time baseball.

I'm borderline between being a hater and being jaded.  all I read on here is hate and I am getting sick of it too.  instead of complaining, I just ignore it.  but I also ignore all the fluffing because that is just as bad as the hate.

in other words, I just read the hottest thong shots thread.

Meta-hate = 3.0 of posts.

Quote from: bvaz on July 07, 2011, 04:57:03 PM
in other words, I just read the hottest thong shots thread.

:clap:

Quote from: bvaz on July 07, 2011, 04:57:03 PM

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 07, 2011, 04:20:39 PM

Quote from: qop24 on July 07, 2011, 04:18:51 PM
well, at least the thread started off with a few positive pages

Agreed, even though I am new here, the hate is prevalent, and I am barely familiar with the place.  But hey some is better than none right?

we tried telling you to leave, but you won't listen.

sweet avatar by the way.  I love old time baseball.

I'm borderline between being a hater and being jaded.  all I read on here is hate and I am getting sick of it too.  instead of complaining, I just ignore it.  but I also ignore all the fluffing because that is just as bad as the hate.

in other words, I just read the hottest thong shots thread.

You did warn me, but now I'm too thick in it to get out.

And yes that picture rocks....being from st. louis I am obligated to love baseball, and being named after Willie Mays...well I think you see where this one goes.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 07, 2011, 04:53:50 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 04:38:16 PM
With that sort of nature comes that sort of expectation.

Did you just plagiarize that cheese-dick "with great power comes great responsibility" line from Spider-Man ?   :wink:

No, but that's fucking hilarious that you know spider-man quotes.  One of us is getting laid tonight, the other is getting a paper cut from a comic book.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
One of us is getting laid tonight

nans.

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 07, 2011, 05:20:56 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
One of us is getting laid tonight

nans.

lol

beat me to it.

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 07, 2011, 05:20:56 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
One of us is getting laid tonight

nans.

::heads to Brothel to spite Scott and get the AIDS::

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 05:17:10 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 07, 2011, 04:53:50 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 04:38:16 PM
With that sort of nature comes that sort of expectation.

Did you just plagiarize that cheese-dick "with great power comes great responsibility" line from Spider-Man ?   :wink:

No, but that's fucking hilarious that you know spider-man quotes.  One of us is getting laid tonight, the other is getting a paper cut from a comic book.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

You're getting laid? C'mon. We all know the only thing you'll be balls deep in tonight is the B side of an AnCo record and a 10-strip.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 07, 2011, 05:28:59 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 05:17:10 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 07, 2011, 04:53:50 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 04:38:16 PM
With that sort of nature comes that sort of expectation.

Did you just plagiarize that cheese-dick "with great power comes great responsibility" line from Spider-Man ?   :wink:

No, but that's fucking hilarious that you know spider-man quotes.  One of us is getting laid tonight, the other is getting a paper cut from a comic book.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

You're getting laid? C'mon. We all know the only thing you'll be balls deep in tonight is the B side of an AnCo record and a 10-strip.

I have to say I'm impressed at how quickly RJ part deux catches on.

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 05:39:52 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 07, 2011, 05:28:59 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 05:17:10 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 07, 2011, 04:53:50 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 04:38:16 PM
With that sort of nature comes that sort of expectation.

Did you just plagiarize that cheese-dick "with great power comes great responsibility" line from Spider-Man ?   :wink:

No, but that's fucking hilarious that you know spider-man quotes.  One of us is getting laid tonight, the other is getting a paper cut from a comic book.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

You're getting laid? C'mon. We all know the only thing you'll be balls deep in tonight is the B side of an AnCo record and a 10-strip.

I have to say I'm impressed at how quickly RJ part deux catches on.

def.

:clap:

Runawayjimbo = best new pauger.   well played dude.

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:38:28 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 03:36:18 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:34:39 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 07, 2011, 03:32:58 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 07, 2011, 03:30:57 PM
I didn't pwn anything.  Nor was my comment very funny either.  Nor did I say anyone deserves a douche crown.  It's the internet, lighten the fuck up.  I don't take anything personally here, you shouldn't either.

Hey now, dude was trying to make nice.

I don't see myself as being mean here.  I'm basically saying no reason to call yourself or anyone else a douche.  The style here is dry humor.  Roll with it.  Is all I'm getting at.

I'm just saying that "lighten the fuck up" isn't the nicest response to what was basically an apology.

You're right.  I picked the wrong wording there.  That was my bad.  My sailor's mouth got the best of me.

Ha-ha-ha. No worries, gents. It's the internets. Shit gets misinterpreted all the time. I get the humor though. I do need to lighten up too. I get all fucking agitated by comments that pretty much are meaningless in the scheme of life. Weird. A 42 year-old man acting/experiencing emotions like a 12 year old because his chat group "friends" are being smart-assy with him. My wife, if she saw this thread, would probably cry at how retarded I am. Either that or punch me. See, I told you I should have taken the crown and shut the fuck up!

PS> I thought your "pwn" of me actually was funny. I hate the expression "pwn" too, which is why I thought your use of it, along with the term "giddy" was very funny. Sorry for thinking you were fucking funny, douche! <--(P.S. that was a joke.)

Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 09:55:48 AM
Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

What's really mind blowing about that?  We all go through evolutionary processes.  This was early on in high school before I got into drugs.  It's not really shocking if you look at my background.  I come from the south where religion is so prominent it's smothering, and well, in the tradition of Southern Baptism you aren't given a choice in choosing religion, you're fed it and forced to accept it.  I wasn't always a thinker either, so prior to my intellectual awakening, I followed Christianity and was passionate about it. 

Quote from: sophist on July 08, 2011, 10:00:49 AM

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 09:55:48 AM
Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

What's really mind blowing about that?  We all go through evolutionary processes.  This was early on in high school before I got into drugs.  It's not really shocking if you look at my background.  I come from the south where religion is so prominent it's smothering, and well, in the tradition of Southern Baptism you aren't given a choice in choosing religion, you're fed it and forced to accept it.  I wasn't always a thinker either, so prior to my intellectual awakening, I followed Christianity and was passionate about it.

I need to work on my reading skills.  I completely missed this. 

Quote from: sophist on July 08, 2011, 10:00:49 AM

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 09:55:48 AM
Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

What's really mind blowing about that?  We all go through evolutionary processes.  This was early on in high school before I got into drugs.  It's not really shocking if you look at my background.  I come from the south where religion is so prominent it's smothering, and well, in the tradition of Southern Baptism you aren't given a choice in choosing religion, you're fed it and forced to accept it.  I wasn't always a thinker either, so prior to my intellectual awakening, I followed Christianity and was passionate about it.

LOL

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 09:55:48 AM
Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

(http://deusexeverriculum.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/sp709_christian_rock_hardalbum_cover1.jpg)

Quote from: sophist on July 08, 2011, 10:00:49 AM

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 09:55:48 AM
Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

What's really mind blowing about that?  We all go through evolutionary processes.  This was early on in high school before I got into drugs.  It's not really shocking if you look at my background.  I come from the south where religion is so prominent it's smothering, and well, in the tradition of Southern Baptism you aren't given a choice in choosing religion, you're fed it and forced to accept it.  I wasn't always a thinker either, so prior to my intellectual awakening, I followed Christianity and was passionate about it.

Didn't mean to make you think it was a bad thing.  I had the same thing going on during high school and the first few years of uni playing in a Christian band.  I still have alot of those beliefs I was 'force fed' growing up.  I just have a more refined faith now.  Just surprised me dude, never would have guessed.  It's not like I'm a psychedelic warrior like yourself.  :wink:

Quote from: McGrupp on July 08, 2011, 10:22:24 AM

Quote from: sophist on July 08, 2011, 10:00:49 AM

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 09:55:48 AM
Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

What's really mind blowing about that?  We all go through evolutionary processes.  This was early on in high school before I got into drugs.  It's not really shocking if you look at my background.  I come from the south where religion is so prominent it's smothering, and well, in the tradition of Southern Baptism you aren't given a choice in choosing religion, you're fed it and forced to accept it.  I wasn't always a thinker either, so prior to my intellectual awakening, I followed Christianity and was passionate about it.

LOL

LOL. 

Quote from: phil on July 08, 2011, 10:27:05 AM

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 09:55:48 AM
Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

(http://deusexeverriculum.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/sp709_christian_rock_hardalbum_cover1.jpg)

LOL +2

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 10:27:52 AM

Quote from: sophist on July 08, 2011, 10:00:49 AM

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 09:55:48 AM
Ok people, I think we're missing the important point that was brought up earlier in this thread:
Sophist played in a Christian rock band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to post some of my comments but I have yet to get past that idea.
Mind = Blown

What's really mind blowing about that?  We all go through evolutionary processes.  This was early on in high school before I got into drugs.  It's not really shocking if you look at my background.  I come from the south where religion is so prominent it's smothering, and well, in the tradition of Southern Baptism you aren't given a choice in choosing religion, you're fed it and forced to accept it.  I wasn't always a thinker either, so prior to my intellectual awakening, I followed Christianity and was passionate about it.

Didn't mean to make you think it was a bad thing.  I had the same thing going on during high school and the first few years of uni playing in a Christian band.  I still have alot of those beliefs I was 'force fed' growing up.  I just have a more refined faith now.  Just surprised me dude, never would have guessed.  It's not like I'm a psychedelic warrior like yourself.  :wink:

oh I know.  I look back and do shake my head.  but at the time, it worked for me.  I got to play everyday and I loved that.  No one could say shit about me making music for a few hours each day because it was the lord's work. 

Funny thing about that.  I eventually got fired from the band.  I got way into panic/phish around this time, and I began to try to incorporate those elements into the Christian music.  It freaked out a lot of the people in the church.  I would try to use segues and extend the music with some jamming.  It didn't go over well. 

Quote from: Marmar on July 07, 2011, 04:21:12 PM
I'll still listen, I'll MAYBE still go and see em.....but I REFUSE to blindly blow smoke up any one's ass over a 3.0 performance that lacks the oomph they are capable of. I'm not living in the past, I'm looking for the future.....and I eagerly await it....hoping that they "get it" and come out and BLOW my sense of what is MUSIC clear into the outer reaches of space/time.....

But for now....IT ain't happening consistently enough even thru the course of one night.....so till then....

Quote from: sophist on July 08, 2011, 10:31:48 AM
oh I know.  I look back and do shake my head.  but at the time, it worked for me.  I got to play everyday and I loved that.  No one could say shit about me making music for a few hours each day because it was the lord's work. 

Funny thing about that.  I eventually got fired from the band.  I got way into panic/phish around this time, and I began to try to incorporate those elements into the Christian music.  It freaked out a lot of the people in the church.  I would try to use segues and extend the music with some jamming.  It didn't go over well.

Righteous segues FTW.
It just adds another layer to the enigma that is Sophist.  :evil:

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on July 08, 2011, 10:50:02 AM
It just adds another layer to the enigma that is Sophist.   :angel:

FYP

wow holy crap, 12 pages already.


I've listened to a lot of IX, and a few things:

Super highlights:  ASIHTOS, Light, GIN, Simple>Bug, Crosseyed.  Light especially what was I wanted: a patient, extended groove that held the suspense and didn't bail or crash the moment the vibe wavered.  But then Ghost was GREAT, until Trey decided to bring it down and start up Jibboo.  Like, wtf is that?  The groove was REAL nice, and melodic and bouncy.  Same with the ending to ASIHTOS, I mean... they could have easily EPICLY brought back My Left Toe there, or drifted into Theme, or Whats the Use....  why end it as a standalone version when you just dissolved the song for the first time ever?  (SPAC 04 doesn't really leave the jam structure much, despite its length)


oh and then theres this god-damn Waves that shapiro played.  I mean, what the fuck guys.  I feel SEVERELY ripped off for having paid to see the shows I did when they can pull THAT out of nowhere.  Heh.

Wow, I've been extremely busy with work this past week and this thread has kept me entertained throughout.  Hopefully I can get a meaningful post in here but well done!   Sorry for the lame response ATM but I had to give props for quality reading here, everything from post one to civility to notkuroda killing the flow, jimbo taking names, sophist telling it straight up and the kick back to Christian rock, this has been well worth the reading time. Thx all  :clap:

Confounded as ever, because the last 8-10 minutes of that Waves are just........  pure Phish.  THAT is what I've been wanting to hear.

And its weird, because the SOUND of that Waves is incredible...  Trey's tone is different, for some reason.  Its cleaner, and warmer....  its *almost* pH-ish.  In a way, this sounds like Fall '99 Phish playing Waves, to me at least.


And I mean....  I'm still understanding Phish, too....  because I fucking put on 12/30/09 yesterday before I went away (i'm in St. Lucia right now, hooked up to the internet with a phone cord...) and two things happened which inverted my previous reality, in which I felt that the Sand was meh and that the GBOTT is incredible.

But as I was cruising with my windows down and the bass pumped and the faders shifting the music sliiiightly to the rear of my car (to increase bass response; my front speakers are a little shot), and I had the Sand pumped loudly.... and OMFG that thing is INCREDIBLE!  Trey is a fucking MADMAN in there!  That shit is so intense, and diabolical....  its weird.

And then the GBOTT kind of just really didn't get me the way it had before... I noticed a lot of things about it which I'd never picked up on, mainly that Fish and Trey really struggle with the groove, time-wise after like 12 minutes in, when the main ending theme kicks in.  Theres like a weird shuffle and Fish does some cool syncopation between his ride and hi-hat, and with his cymbal hits, but its not locked in, and I think that kind of held the thing back, because I could tell that Trey was REALLY fucking trying and just couldn't lock it.  At least thats how I perceived the music.  I'm watching a video of it now, and the jam makes a little more sense based on what the lights were doing, but my feeling still holds.  Trey's trilling part.... he just can't get the time.  It almost seems like Fish is trying to get everyone to play like a 3 over 2 thing and it just couldn't materialize.


And the same thing goes with the Albany Seven Below-> Ghost from '09 too....  those things are fucking UNBELIEVABLE.  Seriously, those are some of the greatest things the band has done since they've come back.  And I knew they were good, but listening back again....  they really are fucking outstanding.  I mean, the start of the Ghost jam is just so SOLID.  Its like a fucking train barreling down the tracks, punching midgets as it passes and is all like "WHAT, SON".

So, I donno... Phish keeps confusing me.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 11, 2011, 09:30:12 AM
Confounded as ever, because the last 8-10 minutes of that Waves are just........  pure Phish.  THAT is what I've been wanting to hear.

And its weird, because the SOUND of that Waves is incredible...  Trey's tone is different, for some reason.  Its cleaner, and warmer....  its *almost* pH-ish.  In a way, this sounds like Fall '99 Phish playing Waves, to me at least.


And I mean....  I'm still understanding Phish, too....  because I fucking put on 12/30/09 yesterday before I went away (i'm in St. Lucia right now, hooked up to the internet with a phone cord...) and two things happened which inverted my previous reality, in which I felt that the Sand was meh and that the GBOTT is incredible.

But as I was cruising with my windows down and the bass pumped and the faders shifting the music sliiiightly to the rear of my car (to increase bass response; my front speakers are a little shot), and I had the Sand pumped loudly.... and OMFG that thing is INCREDIBLE!  Trey is a fucking MADMAN in there!  That shit is so intense, and diabolical....  its weird.

And then the GBOTT kind of just really didn't get me the way it had before... I noticed a lot of things about it which I'd never picked up on, mainly that Fish and Trey really struggle with the groove, time-wise after like 12 minutes in, when the main ending theme kicks in.  Theres like a weird shuffle and Fish does some cool syncopation between his ride and hi-hat, and with his cymbal hits, but its not locked in, and I think that kind of held the thing back, because I could tell that Trey was REALLY fucking trying and just couldn't lock it.  At least thats how I perceived the music.  I'm watching a video of it now, and the jam makes a little more sense based on what the lights were doing, but my feeling still holds.  Trey's trilling part.... he just can't get the time.  It almost seems like Fish is trying to get everyone to play like a 3 over 2 thing and it just couldn't materialize.


And the same thing goes with the Albany Seven Below-> Ghost from '09 too....  those things are fucking UNBELIEVABLE.  Seriously, those are some of the greatest things the band has done since they've come back.  And I knew they were good, but listening back again....  they really are fucking outstanding.  I mean, the start of the Ghost jam is just so SOLID. Its like a fucking train barreling down the tracks, punching midgets as it passes and is all like "WHAT, SON".

So, I donno... Phish keeps confusing me.

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

I agreed with you up until you put the albany 7below on a level with that waves soundcheck. Few things come close (3.0-wise, that is)

I ask the same questions about Phish each time I listen to a 3.0 show:

1. Has the music changed, and as a result, do I not find it as enjoyable? If so, how/why?

2. Have I changed, and as a result, do I not find the music as enjoyable? If so, how/why?

I find myself hung-up on the flubs, odd segues, miscues, and apparent lack of communication on stage. This wasn't a problem for me during 1.0, and to be honest, I didn't really give a shit about 2.0. Why is it such a problem now? I don't know.

What's clear is that it isn't ever going to be what it once was, and that is fact; but, the same thing can be said about every other aging band, revolution, time period, or chemical reaction...

Quote from: joshnicu on July 11, 2011, 02:27:16 PM
I ask the same questions about Phish each time I listen to a 3.0 show:

1. Has the music changed, and as a result, do I not find it as enjoyable? If so, how/why?

2. Have I changed, and as a result, do I not find the music as enjoyable? If so, how/why?

1.  Yes.  The music and jamming is clearly different.  Phish put every single ounce of their efforts into the band from about 1985 until October of 2000.  They were as close as 4 people could be.  They are no longer that close, and therefore not as tight musically.

2.  I would hope so.  1.0 ended over 10 years ago!  I have changed a lot in the past 10 years, and so have my tastes...because it's been 10 years!     

Quote from: joshnicu on July 11, 2011, 02:27:16 PM
I ask the same questions about Phish each time I listen to a 3.0 show:

1. Has the music changed, and as a result, do I not find it as enjoyable? If so, how/why?

2. Have I changed, and as a result, do I not find the music as enjoyable? If so, how/why?

I find myself hung-up on the flubs, odd segues, miscues, and apparent lack of communication on stage. This wasn't a problem for me during 1.0, and to be honest, I didn't really give a shit about 2.0. Why is it such a problem now? I don't know.

What's clear is that it isn't ever going to be what it once was, and that is fact; but, the same thing can be said about every other aging band, revolution, time period, or chemical reaction...

I've come to the same conclusion and tend to ask myself the same questions.  What I have finally realized over the past 7 months is that instead of looking for the perfect show just look for the highlights and enjoy it the best you can.  For me the highlights of the past year consisted of Set 2 and the Meatstick at NYE and sharing the Superball experience with my kids.

I don't think it is ALL about the music for the guys anymore yet all about the total experience of having family, health and a good medium to play decent music. 

It ain't what it used to be and it never will be again.  The mid 1990's were a loooong time ago and we have ALL changed.

However I would rather see 3.0 Phish do their thing than any other band out there so they must be doing something right.

I'm sure this has been said, but i really don't think they are catering to the audience. The whole legacy of Phish is their willingness to constantly change themselves. I think they are making a concious decision to not jam big because they have already done that a bunch in the past. Bethel soundcheck and the Storage jam prove they can still get out there, even while sober, but I think they want to go into a rock oriented direction now because it's something they haven't really done before.

Quote from: Rabbit Cream on July 11, 2011, 08:34:39 PM
I'm sure this has been said, but i really don't think they are catering to the audience. The whole legacy of Phish is their willingness to constantly change themselves. I think they are making a concious decision to not jam big because they have already done that a bunch in the past. Bethel soundcheck and the Storage jam prove they can still get out there, even while sober, but I think they want to go into a rock oriented direction now because it's something they haven't really done before.

am i allowed to say "fuck off n00b" yet?

anyway I agree with you regardless

Fuck off n00b.

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 11, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
am i allowed to say "fuck off n00b" yet?

:shakehead:

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 11, 2011, 09:13:14 PM

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 11, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
am i allowed to say "fuck off n00b" yet?

:shakehead:

This is your friend, right?

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 11, 2011, 09:07:48 PM

Quote from: Rabbit Cream on July 11, 2011, 08:34:39 PM
I'm sure this has been said, but i really don't think they are catering to the audience. The whole legacy of Phish is their willingness to constantly change themselves. I think they are making a concious decision to not jam big because they have already done that a bunch in the past. Bethel soundcheck and the Storage jam prove they can still get out there, even while sober, but I think they want to go into a rock oriented direction now because it's something they haven't really done before.

am i allowed to say "fuck off n00b" yet?

anyway I agree with you regardless

Fuck off n00b.

so people with 50-somethin posts on here aren't considered noobs?

Quote from: G. Augusto on July 11, 2011, 09:18:21 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 11, 2011, 09:13:14 PM

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 11, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
am i allowed to say "fuck off n00b" yet?

:shakehead:

This is your friend, right?

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Quote from: McGrupp on July 11, 2011, 10:11:10 PM

Quote from: G. Augusto on July 11, 2011, 09:18:21 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 11, 2011, 09:13:14 PM

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 11, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
am i allowed to say "fuck off n00b" yet?

:shakehead:

This is your friend, right?

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Don't know the guy....  8-)

Who's Online:

WhatstheUse?    01:17:45 AM    Deleting a message.

Quote from: McGrupp on July 12, 2011, 01:19:16 AM
Who's Online:

WhatstheUse?    01:17:45 AM    Deleting a message.

I went through about 5 different responses attempting to insult Will..... then decided he already made himself look stupid enough.

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 12, 2011, 01:21:27 AM

Quote from: McGrupp on July 12, 2011, 01:19:16 AM
Who's Online:

WhatstheUse?    01:17:45 AM    Deleting a message.

I went through about 5 different responses attempting to insult Will..... then decided he already made himself look stupid enough.

FTR, aug, I knighted him "dirtiest of the weekend" at SBIX. WTU wasn't in the running because that'd be unfair. Gotta count for something.

Who am I kidding. Willie is in prime n00b form. Surf the dirt, kid.

Quote from: McGrupp on July 12, 2011, 01:25:19 AM
Who am I kidding. Willie is in prime n00b form. Surf the dirt, kid.

Dude makes me look like a jaded vet.

kidz these days...

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 12, 2011, 01:31:26 AM

Quote from: McGrupp on July 12, 2011, 01:25:19 AM
Who am I kidding. Willie is in prime n00b form. Surf the dirt, kid.

Dude makes me look like a jaded vet.

kidz these days...

::waits on aug to LOL at your self-proclaimed vet status::

(or confirm that you *are* a vet because he loves his little ferbie soooo much)

(http://www3.images.coolspotters.com/photos/31839/furby-profile.jpg)

 :wtu:

striking similarities...

some thoughts are better not expressed.

Quote from: bvaz on July 12, 2011, 02:36:49 AM
some thoughts are better not expressed.

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

I love when I post stupid things in Scotts  ...He never actually says anything to me, he just looks at me with a shameful look on his face.

And don't you guys worry, I'm pounding the sand so hard over here I'm starting to chafe

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 12, 2011, 10:14:15 AM
I love when I post stupid things in Scotts

speaking of which...

Quote from: qop24 on July 12, 2011, 10:21:49 AM

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 12, 2011, 10:14:15 AM
I love when I post stupid things in Scotts

speaking of which...

I tried so hard not to sound gay writing that....alas.

RC: loves n00b on n00b crime. 

I *WUV* my 'wil FERBY!
He can do no wrong!

(http://www.indiecrush.org/wp-content/gallery/furby/furby1t.jpg)

His friend is a SER n00b and should leave this board immediately.
Real lapse in judgement inviting him over here, Ferbz.

Quote from: G. Augusto on July 12, 2011, 04:03:26 PM
I *WUV* my 'wil FERBY!
He can do no wrong!

(http://www.indiecrush.org/wp-content/gallery/furby/furby1t.jpg)

His friend is a SER n00b and should leave this board immediately.
Real lapse in judgement inviting him over here, Ferbz.

Maybe....but there are too many contradictions in here for this to be a valid statement.

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 12, 2011, 05:06:00 PM
Maybe....but there are too many contradictions in here for this to be a valid statement.

Pound sand, n00b.

Quote from: G. Augusto on July 12, 2011, 04:03:26 PM
I *WUV* my 'wil FERBY!
He can do no wrong!

(http://www.indiecrush.org/wp-content/gallery/furby/furby1t.jpg)

His friend is a SER n00b and should leave this board immediately.
Real lapse in judgement inviting him over here, Ferbz.

wait were you saying there was a FERBY tease in ASIHTOS?

(this would make more sense if they played lizards....)

Quote from: G. Augusto on July 12, 2011, 05:08:15 PM

Quote from: KingOfPrussia2155 on July 12, 2011, 05:06:00 PM
Maybe....but there are too many contradictions in here for this to be a valid statement.

Pound sand, n00b.

Maybe I'm just wasted, But I'm laughing too hard for an emoticon at that.

Quote from: Rabbit Cream on July 11, 2011, 08:34:39 PM
I'm sure this has been said, but i really don't think they are catering to the audience. The whole legacy of Phish is their willingness to constantly change themselves. I think they are making a concious decision to not jam big because they have already done that a bunch in the past. Bethel soundcheck and the Storage jam prove they can still get out there, even while sober, but I think they want to go into a rock oriented direction now because it's something they haven't really done before.

really?......they haven't gone in a "rock oriented direction" before now?......let me ask a simple question.....who the HELL have you been listening to?

89-92/3 is Phish at their rawk peak.....machine gun Trey is RAWK PEAK......

97 Izabella.....

Oh yeah....Chalkdust isn't a Rock song at all......

wtf.

Quote from: Marmar on July 13, 2011, 10:02:04 AM

Quote from: Rabbit Cream on July 11, 2011, 08:34:39 PM
I'm sure this has been said, but i really don't think they are catering to the audience. The whole legacy of Phish is their willingness to constantly change themselves. I think they are making a concious decision to not jam big because they have already done that a bunch in the past. Bethel soundcheck and the Storage jam prove they can still get out there, even while sober, but I think they want to go into a rock oriented direction now because it's something they haven't really done before.

really?......they haven't gone in a "rock oriented direction" before now?......let me ask a simple question.....who the HELL have you been listening to?

89-92/3 is Phish at their rawk peak.....machine gun Trey is RAWK PEAK......

97 Izabella.....

Oh yeah....Chalkdust isn't a Rock song at all......

wtf.

even in the late 80's to early 90's, while they were playing rock songs so to speak, the format of the concerts were not rock oriented.  The long jams weren't there, but the creativitiy in the setlists was abundant and phish was weaving in and out of their catalog unlike any band ever did. That is what i am referring to when I'm saying they are more rock and roll now, playing very straightforward sets with no segues and not being as wild with song selection.

Set 1: My Sweet One, Foam, Tweezer, Tweezer Reprise, Magilla > Guelah Papyrus, Runaway Jim, Split Open and Melt > Bouncing Around the Room, David Bowie

Set 2: Chalk Dust Torture, Reba, The Landlady > The Mango Song, Cavern, Alumni Blues > Letter to Jimmy Page > Alumni Blues

Encore: Carolina

Yeah...that doesn't look like a rock format concert AT all.....look at it, it's just LOADED with segues and tons of songs being woven in the sets....

PUH-lease!

or how about this one?

Set 1: Runaway Jim, Guelah, MSO, Tweezer, Esther, Destiny, Reba, CDT, Foam, Golgi

Set 2: Bowie, Coil, Landlady, Cavern, Mango, SOAMelt, Bouncin', Oh Kee Pa > Suzy

Encore: JJLC, BBFCFM

Just chalk full of segues!....

and yeah...these are actual setlists....

Quote from: Rabbit Cream on July 13, 2011, 10:24:25 AM

Quote from: Marmar on July 13, 2011, 10:02:04 AM

Quote from: Rabbit Cream on July 11, 2011, 08:34:39 PM
I'm sure this has been said, but i really don't think they are catering to the audience. The whole legacy of Phish is their willingness to constantly change themselves. I think they are making a concious decision to not jam big because they have already done that a bunch in the past. Bethel soundcheck and the Storage jam prove they can still get out there, even while sober, but I think they want to go into a rock oriented direction now because it's something they haven't really done before.

really?......they haven't gone in a "rock oriented direction" before now?......let me ask a simple question.....who the HELL have you been listening to?

89-92/3 is Phish at their rawk peak.....machine gun Trey is RAWK PEAK......

97 Izabella.....

Oh yeah....Chalkdust isn't a Rock song at all......

wtf.

even in the late 80's to early 90's, while they were playing rock songs so to speak, the format of the concerts were not rock oriented.  The long jams weren't there, but the creativitiy in the setlists was abundant and phish was weaving in and out of their catalog unlike any band ever did. That is what i am referring to when I'm saying they are more rock and roll now, playing very straightforward sets with no segues and not being as wild with song selection.

Some serious n00bage in this post. 

The early setlists aren't chalk full of segues of either.  They had "arrangements" where they slammed into songs, but it wasn't a segue by any means.  They're using the same formula now.  This isn't a new thing. 

Examples:

Thursday, 01/26/1989
The Paradise, Boston, MA
Soundcheck: The Sloth > Possum
Set 1: I Didn't Know, Golgi Apparatus, Alumni Blues[1] > Letter to Jimmy Page > Alumni Blues, You Enjoy Myself, The Lizards, Take the 'A' Train, Sanity[2], The Divided Sky, Fee, Good Times Bad Times
Set 2: Suzy Greenberg, Icculus, Colonel Forbin's Ascent > Fly Famous Mockingbird, The Sloth, Possum, Contact, Big Black Furry Creature from Mars, Foam, David Bowie
Encore: AC/DC Bag, Fire
[1] Additional lyrics.
[2] Fast version.

Monday, 02/06/1989
The Front, Burlington, VT
Set 1: Suzy Greenberg, The Curtain > Wilson, Peaches en Regalia > Fee > La Grange, You Enjoy Myself
Set 2: All Blues -> Sanity[1], Take the 'A' Train[2], Golgi Apparatus, The Divided Sky, On Your Way Down, I Didn't Know
Set 3: Good Times Bad Times, Walk Away, Harry Hood, Big Black Furry Creature from Mars, The Ballad of Curtis Loew, Colonel Forbin's Ascent > Fly Famous Mockingbird > Whipping Post, Corinna
Encore: David Bowie[3]
[1] Fast version.
[2] Woody Woodpecker theme tease.
[3] Batman theme tease in intro.


Tuesday, 02/07/1989
The Front, Burlington, VT
Set 1: Esther, McGrupp and the Watchful Hosemasters[1] -> Foam, The Sloth -> Possum, Mike's Song > I Am Hydrogen > Weekapaug Groove[2], Golgi Apparatus
Set 2: Makisupa Policeman, Dinner and a Movie, AC/DC Bag, The Lizards, Timber (Jerry), Contact, Alumni Blues[3] > Letter to Jimmy Page > Alumni Blues, Fee, Run Like an Antelope
Set 3: Sanity[4], Fluffhead, Suzy Greenberg, Slave to the Traffic Light, Bike > Whipping Post[5]
Encore: Fire
[1] Fishman on trombone.
[2] Alternate "Sharin' in the Rhode Island groove" lyrics.
[3] Additional lyrics.
[4] Fast version.
[5] First known Fishman vocals.


Saturday, 02/18/1989
Old Stone Church, Newmarket, NH
Set 1: The Sloth, The Divided Sky, The Curtain > I Didn't Know, Colonel Forbin's Ascent > Fly Famous Mockingbird > The Lizards, Walk Away > Possum, Good Times Bad Times
Set 2: Golgi Apparatus, Wilson > Peaches en Regalia, You Enjoy Myself > La Grange, Slave to the Traffic Light, Contact, David Bowie[1]
Set 3: Whipping Post, Corinna, AC/DC Bag
Encore: Fire
[1] "Fish's Birthday" lyrics and a DEG tease from Trey and Page.


Wednesday, 03/01/1989
Gallagher's, Waitsfield, VT
Set 1: Funky Bitch, Possum, Walk Away, Suzy Greenberg > Mike's Song > I Am Hydrogen > Weekapaug Groove
Set 2: Jesus Just Left Chicago, Slave to the Traffic Light, Dinner and a Movie[1], The Fishin' Hole[2], Satin Doll, Halley's Comet[3] > Light Up Or Leave Me Alone, Big Black Furry Creature from Mars
Set 3: Cities > Dave's Energy Guide > Cities, Dog Log, Harry Hood, Fluffhead, Ride Captain Ride
Encore: Green Onions[4], Cinnamon Girl[4] > Hold Your Head Up[5] > American Woman[6] > Wilson > Peaches en Regalia, Fire
[1] Lyrics changed to reference Gallagher's.
[2] First known Phish performance.
[3] Richard Wright on vocals.
[4] First known Phish performance; Trey on drums and Fish on trombone.
[5] First complete Phish performance; Trey on drums and Fish on trombone.
[6] First known Phish performance. Trey on drums and Fish on trombone.

Friday, 03/03/1989
Living and Learning Center, University of Vermont, Burlington, VT
Set 1: Wilson, McGrupp and the Watchful Hosemasters, You Enjoy Myself, Foam, AC/DC Bag, The Curtain > Run Like an Antelope, I Didn't Know[1], The Divided Sky, Alumni Blues[2] > Letter to Jimmy Page > Alumni Blues, Good Times Bad Times
Set 2: Mike's Song > I Am Hydrogen > Weekapaug Groove, Fee, Possum, Walk Away, Colonel Forbin's Ascent > Fly Famous Mockingbird, The Lizards, Split Open and Melt, Take the 'A' Train, David Bowie
Encore: Golgi Apparatus
[1] Fishman on trombone.
[2] Additional lyrics.

Saturday, 01/20/1990
Webster Hall, Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Set 1: Carolina[1], The Sloth, Bathtub Gin, You Enjoy Myself, The Squirming Coil[2], Caravan[1], The Lizards, Run Like an Antelope
Set 2: The Oh Kee Pa Ceremony > Suzy Greenberg, Bouncing Around the Room[2], Reba, Tela, La Grange, Lawn Boy, Esther, Mike's Song > I Am Hydrogen > Weekapaug Groove
Encore: Harry Hood
[1] First known Phish performance.
[2] First known performance.

Friday, 01/26/1990
Tree Café, Portland, ME
Set 1: Run Like an Antelope, Tela, The Divided Sky, Carolina, Communication Breakdown[1]
Set 2: The Squirming Coil > Split Open and Melt, Esther, Reba, Jesus Just Left Chicago, AC/DC Bag, Lawn Boy, My Sweet One, Foam, Caravan
[1] First known Phish performance.

Saturday, 01/27/1990
The Front, Burlington, VT
Set 1: Carolina, Bathtub Gin, Ya Mar, The Oh Kee Pa Ceremony > AC/DC Bag, My Sweet One, Bouncing Around the Room, Wilson[1], Reba, Funky Bitch, Mike's Song > I Am Hydrogen > Weekapaug Groove
Set 2: Communication Breakdown, Caravan, You Enjoy Myself, The Squirming Coil, Run Like an Antelope, Terrapin, The Divided Sky
Encore: La Grange
[1] Heavy metal style.
Notes: Wilson was performed in a heavy metal style.



  Sunday, 01/28/1990
The Front, Burlington, VT
Set 1: Suzy Greenberg, Split Open and Melt, Tela, Fluffhead, La Grange, Carolina, Colonel Forbin's Ascent > Fly Famous Mockingbird, Communication Breakdown
Set 2: Wilson[1], Run Like an Antelope, Bouncing Around the Room, Caravan, The Squirming Coil, You Enjoy Myself, Bathtub Gin, Mike's Song > I Am Hydrogen > Weekapaug Groove
Encore: Lawn Boy, Big Black Furry Creature from Mars
[1] Heavy metal style.


Friday, 02/01/1991
Alumni Hall, Brown University, Providence, RI
Set 1: My Sweet One, Foam, Tweezer, Tweezer Reprise[1], Magilla > Guelah Papyrus[1], Runaway Jim, Split Open and Melt > Bouncing Around the Room, David Bowie
Set 2: Chalk Dust Torture[1], Reba[2], The Landlady > The Mango Song, Cavern, Alumni Blues > Letter to Jimmy Page > Alumni Blues
Encore: Carolina
[1] Debut.
[2] Dixie tease from Trey and Page.

Saturday, 02/02/1991
Alumni Gymnasium, Bates College, Lewiston, ME
Set 1: The Oh Kee Pa Ceremony > Suzy Greenberg, Guelah Papyrus, Dinner and a Movie > Esther, Stash, Destiny Unbound, You Enjoy Myself, Chalk Dust Torture
Set 2: The Squirming Coil, Golgi Apparatus > The Mango Song, The Sloth, Run Like an Antelope, Lawn Boy > Bathtub Gin, Runaway Jim
Encore: Horn, Harry Hood

Sunday, 02/03/1991
The Front, Burlington, VT
Set 1: Runaway Jim, Guelah Papyrus, My Sweet One, Tweezer, Esther, Destiny Unbound, Reba, Chalk Dust Torture, Foam, Golgi Apparatus
Set 2: David Bowie[1], The Squirming Coil, The Landlady, Cavern, The Mango Song, Split Open and Melt, Bouncing Around the Room, The Oh Kee Pa Ceremony > Suzy Greenberg
Encore: Jesus Just Left Chicago, Big Black Furry Creature from Mars
[1] Charlie Chan signal.


  Monday, 02/04/1991
The Front, Burlington, VT
Set 1: Llama, The Divided Sky, Horn, Uncle Pen[1], Stash, The Mango Song, The Landlady > Bouncing Around the Room, Chalk Dust Torture
Set 2: The Squirming Coil, Buried Alive, Runaway Jim, Guelah Papyrus, The Lizards, Run Like an Antelope[2], Lawn Boy, Funky Bitch, Cavern[3] > Let's Go[4] > Terrapin > Let's Go, Mike's Song[5] > I Am Hydrogen[6] > Weekapaug Groove[7]
Encore: My Sweet One[1], Paul and Silas[1], La Grange[1]
Encore 2: Rocky Top[1]
[1] Russell Flanagan on fiddle.
[2] Trey quoted Fixin' to Die in the ending chorus of Antelope.
[3] Trey flubbed the lyrics.
[4] First known Phish performance.
[5] Pete Schall's name spoken in the intro.
[6] Page teased Fishin' Hole.
[7] Groove is in the Heart teases and quotes from Trey.

Thursday, 02/07/1991
Pickle Barrel Pub, Killington, VT
Set 1: Runaway Jim, Foam, My Sweet One, The Landlady, The Mango Song, Split Open and Melt, Bouncing Around the Room, Possum, The Squirming Coil, Golgi Apparatus
Set 2: Chalk Dust Torture, The Man Who Stepped Into Yesterday > Avenu Malkenu > The Man Who Stepped Into Yesterday > Tweezer, Tweezer Reprise, Guelah Papyrus, Uncle Pen, Cavern, Let's Go > Love You > Let's Go, The Lizards[1], The Sloth, Destiny Unbound, You Enjoy Myself[2]
Encore: AC/DC Bag
[1] Aborted midway through the second verse.
[2] Vocal jam closed with a quote of the Bugs Bunny Show theme ("On with the Show, This Is It").

:clap:

So I was thinking a little about this segue stuff.  It does bring up an interesting thought and as of late, I wonder if that is really what I am really craving.  Not a silver bullet solution by any means, but the tasty trannies of yester year would certainly help in my opinion. 

If we were getting smooth butter segues like we used to would that help your overall judgment of the band?  I think it would.  The segue might be the piece that will show they are listening to each other and taking risks. 

I just listened to Mike's Song -> Simple -> Contact > Weekapaug Groove from the Clifford Ball.  What I enjoyed most from this is the smooth transitions.  That to me showed some quality musicianship.  It wasn't even so much about the playing, albeit very good, it was that it was so seamless and effortless sounding. 

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 13, 2011, 01:24:47 PM
So I was thinking a little about this segue stuff.  It does bring up an interesting thought and as of late, I wonder if that is really what I am really craving.  Not a silver bullet solution by any means, but the tasty trannies of yester year would certainly help in my opinion. 

If we were getting smooth butter segues like we used to would that help your overall judgment of the band?  I think it would.  The segue might be the piece that will show they are listening to each other and taking risks. 

I just listened to Mike's Song -> Simple -> Contact > Weekapaug Groove from the Clifford Ball.  What I enjoyed most from this is the smooth transitions.  That to me showed some quality musicianship.  It wasn't even so much about the playing, albeit very good, it was that it was so seamless and effortless sounding.

Indeed.  I think a lot of what frustrates me with 3.0 is that it can sound so forced and just uncomfortable at times.  Even when Trey is playing the right notes the timing is a little shaky and he just sounds kinda unsure.

The best 3.0 is when they just relax and play.

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 13, 2011, 01:24:47 PM
...the tasty trannies of yester year would certainly help in my opinion. 

Is this what you had in mind you sick bastard?

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4365298774_705450e2cb.jpg)

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2011, 01:41:44 PM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 13, 2011, 01:24:47 PM
...the tasty trannies of yester year would certainly help in my opinion. 

Is this what you had in mind you sick bastard?

(http://farm5.stat___ic.flickr.com/4059/4365298774_705450e2cb.jpg)

That's foul. A tasty tranny is one that doesn't like it was made out of sculpey clay.

Quote from: phil on July 13, 2011, 01:43:39 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 13, 2011, 01:41:44 PM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 13, 2011, 01:24:47 PM
...the tasty trannies of yester year would certainly help in my opinion. 

Is this what you had in mind you sick bastard?

(http://farm5.sta___tic.flickr.com/4059/4365298774_705450e2cb.jpg)

That's foul. A tasty tranny is one that doesn't like it was made out of sculpey clay.

Exactly!  Phil's got my back!   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

sheesh stop quoting that d00ds.  :roll:

dudes posting pics of dudes. 

[   ]  totally not geigh
[x ]  totally geigh

Quote from: sophist on July 13, 2011, 01:56:39 PM
dudes posting pics of dudes. 

[   ]  totally not geigh
[x ]  totally geigh

what?!?!?  thats a dude?!?!?!?!?

Quote from: guyforget on July 13, 2011, 02:01:24 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 13, 2011, 01:56:39 PM
dudes posting pics of dudes. 

[   ]  totally not geigh
[x ]  totally geigh

what?!?!?  thats a dude?!?!?!?!?

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Quote from: guyforget on July 13, 2011, 02:01:24 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 13, 2011, 01:56:39 PM
dudes posting pics of dudes. 

[   ]  totally not geigh
[x ]  totally geigh

what?!?!?  thats a dude?!?!?!?!?

::runs off to lab to confirm results::

A dude?!?!  Wait.... but I just....

OH NOOOO!!!  :cry:

well, betty white just got an email she wont understand...

Quote from: sophist on July 13, 2011, 01:56:39 PM
dudes posting pics of dudes. 

[   ]  totally not geigh
[x ]  totally geigh

If you don't find a picture of an old man dressed as a woman hilarious, well, I don't even know you anymore. I was just trying to feed Uncle Eb's fettish for tasty trannies from yester year.

Quote from: guyforget on July 13, 2011, 02:05:23 PM
well, betty white just got an email she wont understand...

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

oh it is hilarious.  I was just piling on (per my normal modus operandi)

definitely hilarious.  unless thats your grandmapa.

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 13, 2011, 01:24:47 PM
So I was thinking a little about this segue stuff.  It does bring up an interesting thought and as of late, I wonder if that is really what I am really craving.  Not a silver bullet solution by any means, but the tasty trannies of yester year would certainly help in my opinion. 

If we were getting smooth butter segues like we used to would that help your overall judgment of the band?  I think it would.  The segue might be the piece that will show they are listening to each other and taking risks. 

I just listened to Mike's Song -> Simple -> Contact > Weekapaug Groove from the Clifford Ball.  What I enjoyed most from this is the smooth transitions.  That to me showed some quality musicianship.  It wasn't even so much about the playing, albeit very good, it was that it was so seamless and effortless sounding.

I'm not entirely sold on this idea....BUT.....it would certainly HELP.

I mean...you gotta look at it like this.....the songs are songs....they aren't going to change much, minus the re-arrangements of certain songs, with/-with...etc....the real space for them to explore is the area between songs....this is where your playing comes into play (heh)....creating the space to make the key changes, time changes, to move it along to the next song....that's where the magic happens IMHO. Certainly, some of the "jammier" songs kinda already have this feature built in to them, but if they are going to continue playing song oriented sets then they really should focus on making the song > song transitions a little more (pick your word here) refined/polished/tighter/interesting......

It's painfully clear that type II has gone the way of the dinosaur with them.

It is nice to hear them at least all be somewhat on the same page, but there still needs to be some practice....missed cues, miss-communication, sloppy execution.....They take these things out of the equation and I could live with the song oriented direction they seem to be going in.....otherwise, to me, it just sounds like a piss poor attempt at sounding like a top 100000 pop band you'd hear on the radio.....These "risks" I hear people say they are taking aren't that to my ears at all...they are poor execution/sloppy playing/lack of communication/complacency.......If the masses enjoy getting their ears pissed in, they'll gladly piss in em for $60 a pop and not give a shit.....

for $60, I at the very least want a deuce dropped on my ears along with the piss.....

Quote from: Marmar on July 14, 2011, 10:15:24 AM
for $60, I at the very least want a deuce dropped on my ears along with the piss.....

::links marmar to backpage::

Yeah, I think the segues would go a LONG way.

I mean, at the bottom of it...  Phish is about DANCING.  And you want to keep dancing; you don't want to stop.  That is where jamming and segues came from; the keep the beat and the groove going, to not break the meditation and not kill the pulse. 

So, the jam should be happening because the music is too good to stop, or because they know there is sick stuff to be had once they get there, the way the 7/22/03 Gumbo pushes through a bunch of great areas before finally somehow turning and ending up in that dumbfoundingly triumphant ending theme/jam. 


However, I think one thing we are all overlooking is the fan outcry back in '09.  I mean, I remember vividly participating in some second guessing and griping about the jamming......  but 2009 now appears to have been the best year for the band; it was all new and fresh and the band was doing crazy things on the energy of being back.

I mean, look at Miami with the Sand, and the crazy Jibboo/Wilson madness into the jammed Heavy Things, jamming out GBOTT, bringing back NO2... 

I've thought this for a while, but never really said it....  I think the band felt they were onto something, and the fans weren't having it, and were very vocal about their lack of and inability to jam.  Yeah, like the Hershey Tweezer is kind of weird with its akward whammy whale, but when I listened to it again recently, it wasn't anything nearly as horrible as I originally commented.

So I'm wondering if the mocking and outcry has affected the band, or Trey in particular....     because, as a fan, theres so many times when I listen or am at a show, and I hear or see an opportunity to do something cool, or extend the groove when it feels right, but then Trey just kills it.

The proof is with the IX ASIHTOS and Ghost.... because those jams were good, but then just didn't go anywhere else.  And like, especially with every version of 2001.... I don't get why Trey doesn't feel compelled to push that groove out more, because its sooo good.  Unless Fish has trouble doing that beat for that long now, which I could see, given age and everything. 

So, I don't know.  They DO still have the capacity to jam and make great things; I just think that Trey maybe feels that what he can do/wants to do/feels he can do won't be accepted by the audience, based on the public outcry about the whale and all that, which is what he was liking and doing.  Couple that with the self-doubt accompanying the lesser rehearsal time and practice the band does....   

but then on the other token, I would think that that would inspire MORE jamming, ala PH, because they don't need to rehearse tricky things or do anything besides sit back and listen and just go....   


I'm wondering if Trey just still can't really let loose on stage and relax enough to see the possibilities, without pre-planning a huge jam ahead of time. 

I just wish they'd do a fucking interview and answer some questions...... 

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 14, 2011, 12:54:40 PM

I just wish they'd do a fucking interview and answer some questions......

I think Waful's interview with CK5 may be our best view into this matter:

Quote

How has your style evolved in the current era of Phish?

CK: Well if anything it's made me need to be more precise. There're no more 45 minute guitar loops where you basically can do anything and it looks fine. It's made me need to pay attention more to what they're doing because the jams are way more thought out now. They're not just reckless and out there. There's a lot of precision to them, if you pay attention enough you can really listen and understand the musical thinking that's going on at any given live moment. And it's a lot more intelligent than it used to be. So I try to be more precise with what I'm doing based on that philosophy.

Quote from: PIE-GUY on July 14, 2011, 01:41:59 PM

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 14, 2011, 12:54:40 PM

I just wish they'd do a fucking interview and answer some questions......

I think Waful's interview with CK5 may be our best view into this matter:

Quote

How has your style evolved in the current era of Phish?

CK: Well if anything it's made me need to be more precise. There're no more 45 minute guitar loops where you basically can do anything and it looks fine. It's made me need to pay attention more to what they're doing because the jams are way more thought out now. They're not just reckless and out there. There's a lot of precision to them, if you pay attention enough you can really listen and understand the musical thinking that's going on at any given live moment. And it's a lot more intelligent than it used to be. So I try to be more precise with what I'm doing based on that philosophy.

That response falls in line with what you've been saying all along PG.  They want to be precise with their jamming and when it doesn't get anywhere too interesting, they abort.  Hence the lack of patience.  I would imagine there are a few lengthy, blow your mind jams left in them, we'll just see them less since they don't feel like wasting set time to meander til they get there.  I guess the question is, can the fans still have fun?  If not, then I guess some will move on.

At this point, I'll be happy if next year the great woods show is not on a Tuesday night.  Even that is getting repetitive.
In all seriousness, you either need to accept what they are doing now or move on.  there is no indication that it will change.
It's easy for me to say because I know when they tour, they will come to my area.  Seeing fewer shows is what will make me enjoy them more and geography will generally make it not much of a hassle for me.
I am ready to enjoy phish again either for a new years show or whenever they tour next.

I would like to present Exhibit A in the case of The People Who Feel He Needs To CHILL On The Lights A Bit vs. CK5:  the 10/26/10 Ghost - from 5:20 - 6:00 in the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo98Vum0_XA&feature=related



Now, I can't be the only one who feels that the music and the lights just didn't match up at all, can I?  The music is mellow, and building.... and in a way he's forcing the band to peak, with the way he'll finally open up the stage with light at a turnaround.

And then again at 6:20 to 6:48.....  he's going like the band is in the midst of a Maze peak or something, but the music is still climbing.

I'm thankful that this Ghost turned out the way it did, because this shit is fucking incredible.....but I just can't help but think that this is a perfect example of CK5 out-pacing the band with the lights, and kind of forcing them to follow him.  Because you'll notice, that when the lights on the stage are the simplest, or with light decorative triangles moving about, the band comes up with better ideas.

It isn't until 7:05 when the band catches up with the lights, really....      I donno, what do you think?

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 19, 2011, 12:16:02 PM

I donno, what do you think?

Great example!  Are you a lawyer?

I totally agree that CK5 needs to chill out a bit.  I've caught several of these moments this summer.  However, I'm not buying 100% into the fact that the lights are always influencing these jams.  Most of the times at a Phish show, especially indoors, it's impossible to not notice the lights.  But, when I see them from the first few rows, I really don't notice the lights much at all.  Given the fact that this band has performed thousands of shows under a state of the art light show, I believe it's very easy for them to tune out the lights.  With watching, listening (ha!), and playing, there isn't a whole lot of room for the band to sit back and watch the lights.  Does it happen, sure.  I know Trey has commented on how that lights can affect a song.  And it happens frequently in YEM vocal jams.  But do I think the lights are impacting every single jam and causing this new style of Phish...no.

 

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 19, 2011, 12:16:02 PM
The People Who Feel He Needs To CHILL On The Lights A Bit vs. CK5

Can't stand CK5.  Just shine some lights and quite trying to make people seize-out with epileptic attacks... 

For my part, I usually end up with my back to the stage for most of the show because the lights are WAY to bright...

Terry

Interesting comments from Mike today on the hotline with regard to type I vs. type II jams and how the band doesn't even really think about that or necessarily make a distinction between the two at all.

Quote from: Hicks on July 19, 2011, 02:45:17 PM
Interesting comments from Mike today on the hotline with regard to type I vs. type II jams and how the band doesn't even really think about that or necessarily make a distinction between the two at all.

The only "II's" happening these days are in the green room bathroom. 

Quote from: twatts likes ghoti on July 19, 2011, 02:36:30 PM
For my part, I usually end up with my back to the stage for most of the show because the lights are WAY to bright...

I like to do this from time to time, usually only a min or two at a time. 

Actually at Portsmouth I ended up doing that for like 20 minutes.  I didn't really even realize how long it was.  I had my shades on at one of the boxes and was just watching the lawn. 

Quote from: sophist on July 19, 2011, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 19, 2011, 02:45:17 PM
Interesting comments from Mike today on the hotline with regard to type I vs. type II jams and how the band doesn't even really think about that or necessarily make a distinction between the two at all.

The only "II's" happening these days are in the green room bathroom.

Speaking of shit, Mike's full of it. Who the fuck is he fooling that he doesn't know the difference between type I and type II? Fine, they might call it different things, but to act like he doesn't know the difference between the two is horseshit. I need to listen to this again, because it sounds like he was driving or jerking off or something while setting this up.

BUT him even addressing it, twice now, says it's something he's definitely thought about and is something they've discussed.

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 19, 2011, 03:03:10 PM

Quote from: sophist on July 19, 2011, 02:53:25 PM

Quote from: Hicks on July 19, 2011, 02:45:17 PM
Interesting comments from Mike today on the hotline with regard to type I vs. type II jams and how the band doesn't even really think about that or necessarily make a distinction between the two at all.

The only "II's" happening these days are in the green room bathroom.

Speaking of shit, Mike's full of it. Who the fuck is he fooling that he doesn't know the difference between type I and type II? Fine, they might call it different things, but to act like he doesn't know the difference between the two is horseshit. I need to listen to this again, because it sounds like he was driving or jerking off or something while setting this up.

BUT him even addressing it, twice now, says it's something he's definitely thought about and is something they've discussed.

I fully endorse this post.

It's the same company line they've all given in recent months: we love what we're doing; tight, focused jams; on top of our game, blah blah blah. And I definitely agree this is some kind of reverse Freudian slip - they have to be thinking about it after seeing a half full field at SBIX.

I thought it was interesting how he referred to '93 and '94 as "surface-level jamming," which I think is telling. It's a really broad generalization, but I kind of see where he's coming from. Say what you want about the Bangor Tweezer, for example, but there's not a lot of emotion in that sort of jam, even though there's plenty of exploration, and I think that's true to a certain extent of a lot of the jamming from before Fall 95 or so. Again, it's a big generalization, and you could probably come up with plenty of counterexamples from that period, but I don't think he's totally off-base either. I think this kind of fits in with my impression of Mike's view of summer '95 as being "starved for melody" - lots of exploration during that tour, but Mike wasn't a fan.

So I think the way that Mike maybe sees things is that emotion and melody, rather than jam length or degree of exploration, is the key rubric for how the band judges their playing nowadays. So for them, that's why the Type-I vs. Type-II conversation isn't really a big deal, since that distinction is all about the degree of exploration. Personally, I don't really lots more emotion in the band's playing nowadays, but judging from everything the band has said in the past few years, they do.

I don't know, just trying to piece together how the band views things.

aren't the terms 'type I' and 'type II' invented by fans to sound headier than noobs when discussing jams? why would phish need to use those terms?

of course pre-'95 jams were more 'surface.' the goal of those jams was to keep things moving at all costs. the moment they settle into a hot groove they immediately alter it and go someplace else, this to avoid boredom and noodling and directionless jamming. they were learning how to jam live and keep it exciting.

and i don't think we need mike to tell us that summer '95 was starved for melody. that whole tour is a mind-melting experiment in creating long jams not based on melody. tons of great stuff, but man, some of it is tough on one's brain.

Quote from: cactusfan on July 19, 2011, 07:12:08 PM
aren't the terms 'type I' and 'type II' invented by fans to sound headier than noobs when discussing jams? why would phish need to use those terms?

Well, type I and type II might not be the terminology that the band would use, but you'd think they'd be aware of the distinction. That's why some people were thinking that Mike's message seemed kinda like bullshit, since he was saying that the band doesn't really think in those terms. I guess I was just trying to come up with an interpretation where he wasn't just blowing smoke up our collective asses.

I have refrained from posting in this thread since the first page, but there is something nagging me and it relates to that interview with Trey about improvisation. A lot of people accuse the haters of living in the past, that we want to re-create what once was, but re-read that interview. At first, I thought it was something from 1.0 that someone had unearthed and posted because it is so far removed from what they are presenting of late. Left me wondering, who exactly is living in the past? Anyway, for the most part I have refrained from dropping hate in 2011 so I will duck out now before I let loose.

Quote from: spaced on July 19, 2011, 07:35:13 PM

Quote from: cactusfan on July 19, 2011, 07:12:08 PM
aren't the terms 'type I' and 'type II' invented by fans to sound headier than noobs when discussing jams? why would phish need to use those terms?

Well, type I and type II might not be the terminology that the band would use, but you'd think they'd be aware of the distinction. That's why some people were thinking that Mike's message seemed kinda like bullshit, since he was saying that the band doesn't really think in those terms. I guess I was just trying to come up with an interpretation where he wasn't just blowing smoke up our collective asses.

it has just always seemed to me that there is little agreement out there on exactly what the distinction is between type I and II. different people often describe it differently. this is why it wouldn't suprise me in the least if the band didn't attempt to make that kind of distinction themselves.

Quote from: Superfreakie on July 20, 2011, 02:37:48 AM
I have refrained from posting in this thread since the first page, but there is something nagging me and it relates to that interview with Trey about improvisation. A lot of people accuse the haters of living in the past, that we want to re-create what once was, but re-read that interview. At first, I thought it was something from 1.0 that someone had unearthed and posted because it is so far removed from what they are presenting of late. Left me wondering, who exactly is living in the past? Anyway, for the most part I have refrained from dropping hate in 2011 so I will duck out now before I let loose.

SF, I would encourage your thoughts out here.  I for one have enjoyed reading all of the different perspectives in a manor that is not "hate" but really crtical discussion.  You always very insightful comments and I think it would be helpful to hear them.

I for one am not sure on the theory of the lights.  I do think its has to play a part, but I can't see it being a big driver for jams.  I do think it helps to drive songs like YEM vocal jam, 2001 and some others. 

Btw, what is the number for the hotline?  I haven't listened yet.

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 20, 2011, 09:22:18 AM

Quote from: Superfreakie on July 20, 2011, 02:37:48 AM
I have refrained from posting in this thread since the first page, but there is something nagging me and it relates to that interview with Trey about improvisation. A lot of people accuse the haters of living in the past, that we want to re-create what once was, but re-read that interview. At first, I thought it was something from 1.0 that someone had unearthed and posted because it is so far removed from what they are presenting of late. Left me wondering, who exactly is living in the past? Anyway, for the most part I have refrained from dropping hate in 2011 so I will duck out now before I let loose.

SF, I would encourage your thoughts out here.  I for one have enjoyed reading all of the different perspectives in a manor that is not "hate" but really crtical discussion.  You always very insightful comments and I think it would be helpful to hear them.

I for one am not sure on the theory of the lights.  I do think its has to play a part, but I can't see it being a big driver for jams.  I do think it helps to drive songs like YEM vocal jam, 2001 and some others. 

Btw, what is the number for the hotline?  I haven't listened yet.

212-330-9092

Quote from: cactusfan on July 20, 2011, 02:39:23 AM

Quote from: spaced on July 19, 2011, 07:35:13 PM

Quote from: cactusfan on July 19, 2011, 07:12:08 PM
aren't the terms 'type I' and 'type II' invented by fans to sound headier than noobs when discussing jams? why would phish need to use those terms?

Well, type I and type II might not be the terminology that the band would use, but you'd think they'd be aware of the distinction. That's why some people were thinking that Mike's message seemed kinda like bullshit, since he was saying that the band doesn't really think in those terms. I guess I was just trying to come up with an interpretation where he wasn't just blowing smoke up our collective asses.

it has just always seemed to me that there is little agreement out there on exactly what the distinction is between type I and II. different people often describe it differently. this is why it wouldn't suprise me in the least if the band didn't attempt to make that kind of distinction themselves.

Who cares what words you want to use to describe it. But there's clearly a difference between staying within the context of a song and jamming/soloing vs pushing things past the basic chord progressions and finding a completely different musical place altogether. They know the difference, so if the fans use different terminology vs what they use who cares? Doesn't change the fact that Mike's the one trying to pull the headier than thou bullshit by being like 'we have no idea what you're talking about and find it real interesting that you guys think and discuss that stuff'.

And I know I said this before, and like SF, I've not posted in this thread at all because I've reached a point of acceptance, but every once in awhile they pull some shit like this and it gets to me, because if YOU'RE not thinking about it, YOU'RE not concerned with your playing or jamming, why the fuck am I going to pay $70 a show to come see you? If YOU want to half ass it, at least let me half ass what I want to pay you, i.e. what your shows are worth these days, $30-40 bucks if you go by lot market #'s (and that's being generous).

Bottom line, discussing semantics is a cop out.

I think people are getting confused or just have different interpretations of what type 2 jamming is. IMO, it doesn't require a harmonic change, but instead can be a change in ryhthm or dynamics. Take the Grateful Dead for example. A large portion of their 'exploratory improv' are changes in dynamics and rhythm as opposed to a harmonic shift. I think this type of type 2 jamming is what Mike is talking about on his hotline and he actually mentions this more directly with relation to the Dead (he calls it Zen Jamming) in a previous interview someone had posted on here a few months ago.

Listened to Mikes msg. He is not saying anything shocking, really. In the Phish book, Trey basically said the Bomb Factory craziness was just them messing around. There was no thought to make it especially intense or anything. Just have fun with it. 

So they are more focused now. There isn't that letting go for long stretches that there used to be. But they feel emotionally deep when jamming in their current style. Good for them. That's apparent to me, too. They seem happy.

What's interesting is Mike having a 45 minute conversation with a fan about jamming. I also remember a story in one of the pharmers almanacs about how a conversation with a fan led mike to switch to the modulus bass and start the whole cow funk phase.  He did mention that just having the thoughts of jamming style seep into their subconscious he noticed a slight change at SBIX. Perhaps that will continue. I won't be holding my breath... But it gives me some hope.

Call it whatever you want, but the jamming style of the ASITHOS from SBIX is what I'd like to hear more often.

This whole thread has been an interesting read, but like I said, I'm at the point of acceptance, it is what it is.

I sort of understand what Mike means when he says "staying within the chord progressions" helps the jam get "deeper"

If you are restricting yourself to stay within a progression, then that forces you to come up with other creative ways of mixing it up.  Instead of being able to jump right off into another idea, you are confined to this little harmonic box -- rather than just skimming the surface of different harmonic progressions you, instead, are just getting "deeper" into the same progression

Think that's what he means...  not the way I would interpret it exactly, but Mike's weird.

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 20, 2011, 01:42:27 PM
  but Mike's weird.

That's funny. Understated a bit, but funny.

And I definitely get where he's coming from. They talk a lot about getting to the point where things are automatic And you aren't thinking at all. If they move into type II territory it may require way more thinking.

mike knows the difference.  they didnt do "pass the 'hey'" exercises so that they could learn to rawk peak jam every song like its char0. 

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 20, 2011, 01:42:27 PM
I sort of understand what Mike means when he says "staying within the chord progressions" helps the jam get "deeper"

If you are restricting yourself to stay within a progression, then that forces you to come up with other creative ways of mixing it up.  Instead of being able to jump right off into another idea, you are confined to this little harmonic box -- rather than just skimming the surface of different harmonic progressions you, instead, are just getting "deeper" into the same progression

Think that's what he means...  not the way I would interpret it exactly, but Mike's weird.

I think this is a pretty solid interpretation of what Mike's saying, but I'd dispute that they are coming up with new ways of mixing it up. Thus you get jams that feel stale and repetitive.

Quote from: PIE-GUY on July 20, 2011, 01:49:50 PM
And I definitely get where he's coming from. They talk a lot about getting to the point where things are automatic And you aren't thinking at all. If they move into type II territory it may require way more thinking.

I've always thought type II would (or maybe should) require less thinking, not more.

Quote from: Hicks on July 20, 2011, 01:05:55 PM
Call it whatever you want, but the jamming style of the ASITHOS from SBIX is what I'd like to hear more often.

I liked that version upon first listen but after watching the video I was like wtf?

Quote from: guyforget on July 20, 2011, 01:57:21 PM
they didnt do "pass the 'hey'" exercises so that they could learn to rawk peak jam every song like its char0.

ser. or did they? :-P :roll: :-o

Quote from: susep on July 20, 2011, 02:00:53 PM

Quote from: guyforget on July 20, 2011, 01:57:21 PM
they didnt do "pass the 'hey'" exercises so that they could learn to rawk peak jam every song like its char0.

ser. or did they? :-P :roll: :-o

I sure as hell hope not.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on July 20, 2011, 01:57:39 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on July 20, 2011, 01:42:27 PM
I sort of understand what Mike means when he says "staying within the chord progressions" helps the jam get "deeper"

If you are restricting yourself to stay within a progression, then that forces you to come up with other creative ways of mixing it up.  Instead of being able to jump right off into another idea, you are confined to this little harmonic box -- rather than just skimming the surface of different harmonic progressions you, instead, are just getting "deeper" into the same progression

Think that's what he means...  not the way I would interpret it exactly, but Mike's weird.

I think this is a pretty solid interpretation of what Mike's saying, but I'd dispute that they are coming up with new ways of mixing it up. Thus you get jams that feel stale and repetitive.

Quote from: PIE-GUY on July 20, 2011, 01:49:50 PM
And I definitely get where he's coming from. They talk a lot about getting to the point where things are automatic And you aren't thinking at all. If they move into type II territory it may require way more thinking.

I've always thought type II would (or maybe should) require less thinking, not more.

Yeah if they were getting "deeper" then we wouldn't be having any of these discussions, and they wouldn't be sounding "stale and repetitive" and for damn sure it wouldn't be something the band is obviously discussing as evidenced by Mike having brought it up twice, and Trey bringing it up in that RS interview before IX.

Secondly, in terms of "thinking" I'm with rjdeux on this one. Pretty sure getting out there, to that point of letting go, becoming a vehicle for the music instead of driving it, most definitely requires less thinking. In fact, the last thing you want to do when you're in those moments is think at all about what you're doing, because the second you do, you're bound to lose it. Anyone that's played, and experienced IT knows that. Once you do, you're going to trip over yourself.

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 20, 2011, 03:24:26 PM
Yeah if they were getting "deeper" then we wouldn't be having any of these discussions, and they wouldn't be sounding "stale and repetitive" and for damn sure it wouldn't be something the band is obviously discussing as evidenced by Mike having brought it up twice, and Trey bringing it up in that RS interview before IX.

I wonder if that is why there is this little "break" of no touring plans. 

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 21, 2011, 08:54:59 AM

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 20, 2011, 03:24:26 PM
Yeah if they were getting "deeper" then we wouldn't be having any of these discussions, and they wouldn't be sounding "stale and repetitive" and for damn sure it wouldn't be something the band is obviously discussing as evidenced by Mike having brought it up twice, and Trey bringing it up in that RS interview before IX.

I wonder if that is why there is this little "break" of no touring plans.

I thought it was because Page's wife is having a baby?

Quote from: McGrupp on July 21, 2011, 12:10:53 PM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 21, 2011, 08:54:59 AM

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 20, 2011, 03:24:26 PM
Yeah if they were getting "deeper" then we wouldn't be having any of these discussions, and they wouldn't be sounding "stale and repetitive" and for damn sure it wouldn't be something the band is obviously discussing as evidenced by Mike having brought it up twice, and Trey bringing it up in that RS interview before IX.

I wonder if that is why there is this little "break" of no touring plans.

I thought it was because Page's wife is having a baby?

yup.

Quote from: McGrupp on July 21, 2011, 12:10:53 PM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on July 21, 2011, 08:54:59 AM

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 20, 2011, 03:24:26 PM
Yeah if they were getting "deeper" then we wouldn't be having any of these discussions, and they wouldn't be sounding "stale and repetitive" and for damn sure it wouldn't be something the band is obviously discussing as evidenced by Mike having brought it up twice, and Trey bringing it up in that RS interview before IX.

I wonder if that is why there is this little "break" of no touring plans.

I thought it was because Page's wife is having a baby?

Yes.

Trey just needs to wear more comfortable shirts.





bring back the XL hippie shirts, trey.

go on...it's time.

If you you were never privy to a single note of Phish prior to 2011, would you still think Phish kicks ass?  I do. 

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 05, 2011, 04:34:56 PM
If you you were never privy to a single note of Phish prior to 2011, would you still think Phish kicks ass?  I do.

Excluding the steaming pile of turd better known as the album Joy, yes I would.

That's taking lowering the bar to a whole new level.

The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Stairs are fucking HAZARDOUS

Quote from: phil on August 05, 2011, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Stairs are fucking HAZARDOUS

Especially once you're past your prime.

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 10:18:08 PM

Quote from: phil on August 05, 2011, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Stairs are fucking HAZARDOUS

Especially once you're past your prime.

But the upstairs bar is usually where all the younger hotties hang out.

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 06, 2011, 10:22:25 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 10:18:08 PM

Quote from: phil on August 05, 2011, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Stairs are fucking HAZARDOUS

Especially once you're past your prime.

But the upstairs bar is usually where all the younger hotties hang out.

Also not a priority once you're married with kids.

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 08, 2011, 03:30:15 PM

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 06, 2011, 10:22:25 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 10:18:08 PM

Quote from: phil on August 05, 2011, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Stairs are fucking HAZARDOUS

Especially once you're past your prime.

But the upstairs bar is usually where all the younger hotties hang out.

Also not a priority once you're married with kids.

Speak for yourself, old man!

Quote from: birdman on August 08, 2011, 06:44:49 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 08, 2011, 03:30:15 PM

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 06, 2011, 10:22:25 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 10:18:08 PM

Quote from: phil on August 05, 2011, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Stairs are fucking HAZARDOUS

Especially once you're past your prime.

But the upstairs bar is usually where all the younger hotties hang out.

Also not a priority once you're married with kids.

Speak for yourself, old man!

glad i'm not the only scumbag that thought that  :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Quote from: redrum on August 08, 2011, 09:22:38 PM

Quote from: birdman on August 08, 2011, 06:44:49 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 08, 2011, 03:30:15 PM

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 06, 2011, 10:22:25 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 10:18:08 PM

Quote from: phil on August 05, 2011, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Stairs are fucking HAZARDOUS

Especially once you're past your prime.

But the upstairs bar is usually where all the younger hotties hang out.

Also not a priority once you're married with kids.

Speak for yourself, old man!

glad i'm not the only scumbag that thought that  :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

I may think it but wouldn't say it, what a bunch of scumbags.  :shakehead:

Quote from: birdman on August 08, 2011, 06:44:49 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 08, 2011, 03:30:15 PM

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 06, 2011, 10:22:25 AM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 10:18:08 PM

Quote from: phil on August 05, 2011, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: rowjimmy on August 05, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
The lower bar...

for when you can't bother to make the climb to the upstairs bar.

Stairs are fucking HAZARDOUS

Especially once you're past your prime.

But the upstairs bar is usually where all the younger hotties hang out.

Also not a priority once you're married with kids.

Speak for yourself, old man!

Actually, I wasn't speaking for myself even...
Just overextending the metaphor.

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 20, 2011, 03:24:26 PM
Yeah if they were getting "deeper" then we wouldn't be having any of these discussions, and they wouldn't be sounding "stale and repetitive" and for damn sure it wouldn't be something the band is obviously discussing as evidenced by Mike having brought it up twice, and Trey bringing it up in that RS interview before IX.

Secondly, in terms of "thinking" I'm with rjdeux on this one. Pretty sure getting out there, to that point of letting go, becoming a vehicle for the music instead of driving it, most definitely requires less thinking. In fact, the last thing you want to do when you're in those moments is think at all about what you're doing, because the second you do, you're bound to lose it. Anyone that's played, and experienced IT knows that. Once you do, you're going to trip over yourself.

It depends on how the definition of "Deep" is being portrayed.  Is it deeper when you can let go and be more automatic, or is it deeper when its further from where you started, musically?

I understand what Mike says about being deeper, with regards to type 1 jams, because you can let go, and the scale patterns and stuff will just be there in your subconscious to know where to put your fingers and how to react.

However, this is why I must disagree with you about Type II jams being more automatic...  say were playing Slave, or Hood; the epitome of Type 1 jams.  These have set chord progressions and thus the set scales and modes that can be easily played over them.

However, if we're playing Ghost, or Tweezer, and after grooving on the A tonic, Page throws in a weird dissonant note, unless you've got perfect pitch or really damn good relative pitch, you're going to have to look at your fretboard, and dig around until you figure out "oh, he just played a flatted 5th".  The flat 5 is not in the normal minor mode that you'd groove on in A, which in this case would be Eb. 

So, now that Page has introduced this foreign note, how do you respond?  Will you shift to make Bb the new root, with Eb being a suspended 4th for Bb major?  or will you try to tug it down and shift the Eb down to D so you can make a smooth minor 1 to Major IV chord change? 

Granted, with a '95 Trey, he could've done that in his sleep....but now....



and for the record:

Type I:  set, pre-written chord progression jam, ie: Slave, Hood, solos in Chalkdust, Caspian, YEM, Fluffhead, Divided Sky, Twist, Jibboo, Weekapaug, etc

Type II:  jam starts on tonic with no pre-written progression to follow, and no written destination to return to, ie: Ghost, Tweezer, Gin, Sand


Bowie and Antelope fit with Type I, but given that they are simply 2-chord jams, they are more easily "taken out" but still have at their foundation the set progression. 

I got a hair up my ass today to look at some setlist stats.  I keep seeing the same songs (i.e. Possum) and was like WTF!  again!  ANd then I decided to use some nerdy statistics to determine if I am nuts.  And it turns out there is some interesting information in what I have gathered.

I went back and looked at the top 20 songs of 3.0.  I found the percentage and times played during 3.0 (through last night).  I then compared that to the songs debut and times played during 1.0 and 2.0.  Suprisingly or maybe not, Many songs don't have significant variations in frequency.  Sure there are a few, but I'm good with it. 

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on August 09, 2011, 05:12:12 PM

Quote from: goodabouthood on July 20, 2011, 03:24:26 PM
Yeah if they were getting "deeper" then we wouldn't be having any of these discussions, and they wouldn't be sounding "stale and repetitive" and for damn sure it wouldn't be something the band is obviously discussing as evidenced by Mike having brought it up twice, and Trey bringing it up in that RS interview before IX.

Secondly, in terms of "thinking" I'm with rjdeux on this one. Pretty sure getting out there, to that point of letting go, becoming a vehicle for the music instead of driving it, most definitely requires less thinking. In fact, the last thing you want to do when you're in those moments is think at all about what you're doing, because the second you do, you're bound to lose it. Anyone that's played, and experienced IT knows that. Once you do, you're going to trip over yourself.

It depends on how the definition of "Deep" is being portrayed.  Is it deeper when you can let go and be more automatic, or is it deeper when its further from where you started, musically?

I understand what Mike says about being deeper, with regards to type 1 jams, because you can let go, and the scale patterns and stuff will just be there in your subconscious to know where to put your fingers and how to react.

However, this is why I must disagree with you about Type II jams being more automatic...  say were playing Slave, or Hood; the epitome of Type 1 jams.  These have set chord progressions and thus the set scales and modes that can be easily played over them.

However, if we're playing Ghost, or Tweezer, and after grooving on the A tonic, Page throws in a weird dissonant note, unless you've got perfect pitch or really damn good relative pitch, you're going to have to look at your fretboard, and dig around until you figure out "oh, he just played a flatted 5th".  The flat 5 is not in the normal minor mode that you'd groove on in A, which in this case would be Eb. 

So, now that Page has introduced this foreign note, how do you respond?  Will you shift to make Bb the new root, with Eb being a suspended 4th for Bb major?  or will you try to tug it down and shift the Eb down to D so you can make a smooth minor 1 to Major IV chord change? 

Granted, with a '95 Trey, he could've done that in his sleep....but now....



and for the record:

Type I:  set, pre-written chord progression jam, ie: Slave, Hood, solos in Chalkdust, Caspian, YEM, Fluffhead, Divided Sky, Twist, Jibboo, Weekapaug, etc

Type II:  jam starts on tonic with no pre-written progression to follow, and no written destination to return to, ie: Ghost, Tweezer, Gin, Sand


Bowie and Antelope fit with Type I, but given that they are simply 2-chord jams, they are more easily "taken out" but still have at their foundation the set progression.

The only flaw in your logic is that EVERY song has the potential for type II......go back and listen to your archives again......Twist is type I? lmao.....listen to the spac 04 Twist and come back here and try and tell me that's type I.....and Gin, ummm.....that's not type II.....it usually returns to the end riff, even when they took it out there it usually always returned to the theme....

your logic = flawed.

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 10:38:26 AM
I got a hair up my ass today to look at some setlist stats.  I keep seeing the same songs (i.e. Possum) and was like WTF!  again!  ANd then I decided to use some nerdy statistics to determine if I am nuts.  And it turns out there is some interesting information in what I have gathered.

I went back and looked at the top 20 songs of 3.0.  I found the percentage and times played during 3.0 (through last night).  I then compared that to the songs debut and times played during 1.0 and 2.0.  Suprisingly or maybe not, Many songs don't have significant variations in frequency.  Sure there are a few, but I'm good with it.

Sooo, uhhh, slow day at work, huh?  :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

The best part of that to me is you can tell Eb plugged in actual excel formulas and extracted the data from a website like a true nerd.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
The best part of that to me is you can tell Eb plugged in actual excel formulas and extracted the data from a website like a true nerd.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Interestingly enough, he didn't mention an overall % frequency increase or decrease in the top 20 played, just calculated, and it's -1%.

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 10, 2011, 11:00:51 AM

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
The best part of that to me is you can tell Eb plugged in actual excel formulas and extracted the data from a website like a true nerd.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Interestingly enough, he didn't mention an overall % frequency increase or decrease in the top 20 played, just calculated, and it's -1%.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence.

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 11:10:49 AM

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 10, 2011, 11:00:51 AM

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
The best part of that to me is you can tell Eb plugged in actual excel formulas and extracted the data from a website like a true nerd.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Interestingly enough, he didn't mention an overall % frequency increase or decrease in the top 20 played, just calculated, and it's -1%.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence.

I'm having trouble understanding your face! What I did was see what % overall change there was in the top 20 played songs (minus the new 3.0 songs, of course). Just averaged the %'s out is all.

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 10, 2011, 11:25:48 AM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 11:10:49 AM

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 10, 2011, 11:00:51 AM

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
The best part of that to me is you can tell Eb plugged in actual excel formulas and extracted the data from a website like a true nerd.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Interestingly enough, he didn't mention an overall % frequency increase or decrease in the top 20 played, just calculated, and it's -1%.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence.

I'm having trouble understanding your face! What I did was see what % overall change there was in the top 20 played songs (minus the new 3.0 songs, of course). Just averaged the %'s out is all.

Work on your jokes there husky pants.  Understanding my face?  Understanding my face?!?!  Yeah, I got nothing....slow day.

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 10, 2011, 11:00:51 AM

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
The best part of that to me is you can tell Eb plugged in actual excel formulas and extracted the data from a website like a true nerd.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Interestingly enough, he didn't mention an overall % frequency increase or decrease in the top 20 played, just calculated, and it's -1%.

Don't listen to them, Eb. They're just jealous they can't do such riveting statistical analysis. I made a chart once on the frequency of Fluffhead by year when there was a discussion about how overplayed it is these days.

One thing I might add is that you might think about adjusting your 1.0 frequencies a bit. In the 80s, setlists didn't vary as much (presumably because the repertoire was smaller and they were just developing an audience) so this tends to add some bias to your results. For example, Antelope was played 16 of 53 (30%) shows in '88 and 33 of 83 (40%) in '89 so it pulls the average upward. If you took all shows say from 1990 on, you might get some different frequencies. Nice job though!

Now if you excuse me...
(http://nola.humidbeings.com/_user/images/larges/1385fdd0e0dcde8b419758d81f614431.jpg)

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 11:28:59 AM

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 10, 2011, 11:00:51 AM

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
The best part of that to me is you can tell Eb plugged in actual excel formulas and extracted the data from a website like a true nerd.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Interestingly enough, he didn't mention an overall % frequency increase or decrease in the top 20 played, just calculated, and it's -1%.

Don't listen to them, Eb. They're just jealous they can't do such riveting statistical analysis. I made a chart once on the frequency of Fluffhead by year when there was a discussion about how overplayed it is these days.

One thing I might add is that you might think about adjusting your 1.0 frequencies a bit. In the 80s, setlists didn't vary as much (presumably because the repertoire was smaller and they were just developing an audience) so this tends to add some bias to your results. For example, Antelope was played 16 of 53 (30%) shows in '88 and 33 of 83 (40%) in '89 so it pulls the average upward. If you took all shows say from 1990 on, you might get some different frequencies. Nice job though!

Now if you excuse me...
(http://nola.humidbeings.com/_user/images/larges/1385fdd0e0dcde8b419758d81f614431.jpg)

Yeah, I thought about some of that too.  Even though its a slow day, its not THAT slow.  There is some biased but probably not statistically significant.  1 or 2% in the grand scheme is not a big deal. 

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 11:28:59 AM

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 10, 2011, 11:00:51 AM

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
The best part of that to me is you can tell Eb plugged in actual excel formulas and extracted the data from a website like a true nerd.   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Interestingly enough, he didn't mention an overall % frequency increase or decrease in the top 20 played, just calculated, and it's -1%.

Don't listen to them, Eb. They're just jealous they can't do such riveting statistical analysis. I made a chart once on the frequency of Fluffhead by year when there was a discussion about how overplayed it is these days.

One thing I might add is that you might think about adjusting your 1.0 frequencies a bit. In the 80s, setlists didn't vary as much (presumably because the repertoire was smaller and they were just developing an audience) so this tends to add some bias to your results. For example, Antelope was played 16 of 53 (30%) shows in '88 and 33 of 83 (40%) in '89 so it pulls the average upward. If you took all shows say from 1990 on, you might get some different frequencies. Nice job though!

Now if you excuse me...
(http://nola.humidbeings.com/_user/images/larges/1385fdd0e0dcde8b419758d81f614431.jpg)

I did data analysis for almost two years.  I fucking pwn excel, hard.   :evil:

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 11:30:54 AM
Yeah, I thought about some of that too.  Even though its a slow day, its not THAT slow.  There is some biased but probably not statistically significant.  1 or 2% in the grand scheme is not a big deal.

Dude, I was just going for a joke. I didn't mean you should actually think about this shit?!  :wink:

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 11:36:20 AM
I did data analysis for almost two years.  I fucking pwn excel, hard.   :evil:

I'm an actuary at an insurance company. I live and breathe excel. I do fantasy football spreadsheets in my spare time! (wait, this isn't coming off the way I wanted it to)

Quote from: Marmar on August 10, 2011, 10:41:43 AM
The only flaw in your logic is that EVERY song has the potential for type II......go back and listen to your archives again......Twist is type I? lmao.....listen to the spac 04 Twist and come back here and try and tell me that's type I.....and Gin, ummm.....that's not type II.....it usually returns to the end riff, even when they took it out there it usually always returned to the theme....

your logic = flawed.

Well yeah I mean, everything can be taken out there...  even stuff like Free and Theme.  But I was meaning more like what the song was written as, and what its general tendencies are. 

I agree with the Gin assessment, though... I'm not sure how to categorize the static harmonic jams like Gin and Mikes, because they are more similar to Ghost with having a single tonal center, but those songs have written destinations. 

I mean, does Sand fall into that category too?  It doesn't have a 'written' ending, but the jam usually ends with the crescendo -> return to verse riff. 

Same with Disease....  thats a tough one, because its a Type II but with an originally-written ending.  Kind of like Gin in that regard. 

So maybe there should be 3 kinds?  Standard type 1's which are progression-based, ala Slave, Bowie, Antelope, YEM, Fluffhead and which are more easily compared to guitar solo sections.

Then Type II are those which are harmonically static with no ending written into the song.  But now that I think about it.... I feel Gin and Mike's would almost count as Type II because there is no progression, just a harmonic center.... despite having written destinations. 


I mean, what do you think?  Perhaps the presence of a written ending shouldn't matter.... and all songs are actually Type I in that they have a pre-ordained starting point.  And then Type II should be only handed out if the jam leaves whatever normal parameters the song typically has. 

But what of Ghost, and Disease?  They all "do" the same thing, staying in the same modal areas despite being different every time.  Same with Gin and Sand.  You know what those jams are "supposed' to sound like, but they don't have progressions to follow, just harmonic normalities.   


I donno, my head hurts now.  I don't understand myself. lol

Gumbo, I think you're falling into the trap described by Mike in his Type XVII message. I do love reading your analyses because they're so technical and theoretical and, even though they can be way over my "I can play rhythm a little bit " head, they are pretty illuminating about how a musician approaches or thinks about jamming. But I think that's doing a disservice to the whole distinction.

To me, it's not the structure of the song and whether or not a jam tends to leave that structure that distinguishes between I and II. It's what happening in this song at this moment, regardless of what they've done in the past or even what was intended when the song was written. It's that collective elation you can hear and feel when the band leaves their happy place for something unknown. It can be dark, weird, melodic, whatever. But I just don't see it as something that's defined by the song itself. We can make generalizations about where songs fit on the continuum, but it's not a definitive answer either way.

This is all IMO, of course, and I think while there is usually some consensus among fans on whether a particular jam reached type I vs type II status, it can be different for everyone so if someone tries to define it for you I'd politely tell them to go shit in their hat.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 11:40:25 AM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 11:30:54 AM
Yeah, I thought about some of that too.  Even though its a slow day, its not THAT slow.  There is some biased but probably not statistically significant.  1 or 2% in the grand scheme is not a big deal.

Dude, I was just going for a joke. I didn't mean you should actually think about this shit?!  :wink:

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 11:36:20 AM
I did data analysis for almost two years.  I fucking pwn excel, hard.   :evil:

I'm an actuary at an insurance company. I live and breathe excel. I do fantasy football spreadsheets in my spare time! (wait, this isn't coming off the way I wanted it to)

You brought up a good point and I did think about it.  Its the paug affect.  You best know what you are posting. 

I use Excel pretty regularly too.  I have someone on my team that uses it much more effectively than I do, but a few years back I was pretty good at it.  Now I'm just above average.  I don't write VB and stuff, although I have in the past.

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 12:49:38 PM
Gumbo, I think you're falling into the trap described by Mike in his Type XVII message. I do love reading your analyses because they're so technical and theoretical and, even though they can be way over my "I can play rhythm a little bit " head, they are pretty illuminating about how a musician approaches or thinks about jamming. But I think that's doing a disservice to the whole distinction.

To me, it's not the structure of the song and whether or not a jam tends to leave that structure that distinguishes between I and II. It's what happening in this song at this moment, regardless of what they've done in the past or even what was intended when the song was written. It's that collective elation you can hear and feel when the band leaves their happy place for something unknown. It can be dark, weird, melodic, whatever. But I just don't see it as something that's defined by the song itself. We can make generalizations about where songs fit on the continuum, but it's not a definitive answer either way.

This is all IMO, of course, and I think while there is usually some consensus among fans on whether a particular jam reached type I vs type II status, it can be different for everyone so if someone tries to define it for you I'd politely tell them to go shit in their hat.

Yeah, and actually thats something that I only just kind of thought about, in terms of labeling the jams after they've been played, rather than how the song was written.

Because like, Ghost is a completely different type of jam than a Slave jam.  One has a cycling chord progression, the other is just a groove and a harmonic tonal center.  I always called Ghost a "Type II" jam song because once the song portion ends, there is no charted out destination, or means of getting there, whereas with Slave, you know that you are going to be playing A, G, D, and E until the ending. 

Which is interesting to think about, because although Ghost would be a Type II song, its jams these days are decidedly Type I, because they all do the same thing, musically-speaking (in general). 

I guess examples would help illuminate this idea:

Harry Hood - Type I song.  12/30/95 Hood - Type I jam, 7/30/03 Hood - Type II jam

Gotta Jibboo - Type I  song.  Lake Tahoe Jibboo - Type I jam, 7/4/00 Jibboo - Type II jam

Stash - Type I song.  11/30/97 Stash - Type II jam, any 3.0 Stash - Type I jamming

Mike's Song - Type I song.  12/1/95 - Type II jam, any 3.0 Mike's - Type I jamming

Birds - Type I song.  7/25/99 - Type II jam, 7/11/99 - Type II jam.  any 3.0 Birds - Type I jamming. 

BUT THEN:

Tweezer - Type II song.  Mud Island, 12/6/97, 12/16/99 - Type II jam, 3.0 Tweezer = Type 1

Sand - Type II song.  Camden Sand - Type II jam, 6/11/11 - Type I jam

Ghost - Type II song.  Albany '09 - Type II jam, Manchester/NYE '10 - Type I jam.   

Gin - Type II song.  7/11/99 - Type II jam, 11/23/97 - Type II jam.  3.0 Gins - Type I jamming

and we do have some recent examples with # Line, which is a clearly Type 1 song, but does have versions which would constitute Type II jams, namely Spac '09. 


But then again..... maybe ALL songs are Type I songs, but the distinction being Type 1P (for progression-based), and Type 1M (for modal based).  Whereas Slave, Stash, Reba, Twist and Hoods jams are based on the chord progression, Tweezer and Ghost's jams are based on a modal groove on A minor.  Gin's jam is a modal groove on C major.  Sand is a modal groove on A minor.  Disease is a modal groove on A major.  Mike's Song is a modal groove on F# minor.  Seven Below is a modal groove on C major. 

Type 1G jams resemble Type II jams, because of their lack of a consistent chordal and harmonic framework that they're based around.  But they are still Type I jams, mostly, because they don't always leave the home tonic note.  So, this is how we know the 12/11/97 and 11/13/98 DWD to be Type II vs. the 3.0 Diseases, which imo are *mostly* type I in their relative similarity. 


But then it gets screwy when we have things like the Gorge Roggae, the Vegas '04 Twist and Jibboo, the 7/3/00 Jim, the Utica Antelope and Bowie, and the 7/30/03 Hood:  they're all completed versions of the song, but within that is Type II madness.

And we also have a song like Piper... is that Type I?  is it Type II?  I'd always thought it to be a Type II song now, along with Tweezer and Ghost, but now, along with Tweezer and Ghost, the jams seem to be doing mostly the same thing, despite not being a simple repetition of a chord progression. 

So again, maybe Type I and II needs to not be referred to songs at all, which is how I had previously thought.  But I still think it bears some weight, because a Piper jam is different than a Reba jam, structurally and foundationally, the same way a Tweezer jam is different from an ACDC Bag jam.  But then there are songs like Limb by Limb and Gin, which have a definite musical character, but arent a cycling chord progression. 

But then...  the 8/10/04 ACDC Bag is CLEARLY a Type II jam version of a Type I song.  Same with the 7/22/03 Gumbo, and the 8/10/04 Birds. 


and also..... what of Drowned, Crosseyed, and Rock and Roll?  Are those all Type II jams?  Or Type I?  and what is Light?  Type I or Type II?

Glad to see you got my point
:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Gumbo, whether or not they remember to go back and play the end of the song has nothing to do with whether a jam is type 1 or 2. 

Type 1: stays in structure
Type 2: leaves structure

The structure might be a chord progression, or just an initial riff and groove.  Once they leave that structure, the jam becomes type 2 improvisation. 

Quote from: kellerb on August 10, 2011, 03:15:53 PM
Gumbo, whether or not they remember to go back and play the end of the song has nothing to do with whether a jam is type 1 or 2. 

Type 1: stays in structure
Type 2: leaves structure

The structure might be a chord progression, or just an initial riff and groove.  Once they leave that structure, the jam becomes type 2 improvisation.

so, do flubs count as type II?

Quote from: bvaz on August 10, 2011, 03:18:43 PM

Quote from: kellerb on August 10, 2011, 03:15:53 PM
Gumbo, whether or not they remember to go back and play the end of the song has nothing to do with whether a jam is type 1 or 2. 

Type 1: stays in structure
Type 2: leaves structure

The structure might be a chord progression, or just an initial riff and groove.  Once they leave that structure, the jam becomes type 2 improvisation.

so, do flubs count as type II?

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard 

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 03:35:59 PM

Quote from: bvaz on August 10, 2011, 03:18:43 PM

Quote from: kellerb on August 10, 2011, 03:15:53 PM
Gumbo, whether or not they remember to go back and play the end of the song has nothing to do with whether a jam is type 1 or 2. 

Type 1: stays in structure
Type 2: leaves structure

The structure might be a chord progression, or just an initial riff and groove.  Once they leave that structure, the jam becomes type 2 improvisation.

so, do flubs count as type II?

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

That would create some sort of Hate/Fluff vortex that would destroy us all

Did it get weird/interesting?

If yes then it was type II, if no then it was type I.

The rest don't matter.

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 02:13:16 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 11:40:25 AM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 11:30:54 AM
Yeah, I thought about some of that too.  Even though its a slow day, its not THAT slow.  There is some biased but probably not statistically significant.  1 or 2% in the grand scheme is not a big deal.

Dude, I was just going for a joke. I didn't mean you should actually think about this shit?!  :wink:

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 11:36:20 AM
I did data analysis for almost two years.  I fucking pwn excel, hard.   :evil:

I'm an actuary at an insurance company. I live and breathe excel. I do fantasy football spreadsheets in my spare time! (wait, this isn't coming off the way I wanted it to)

You brought up a good point and I did think about it.  Its the paug affect.  You best know what you are posting. 

I use Excel pretty regularly too.  I have someone on my team that uses it much more effectively than I do, but a few years back I was pretty good at it.  Now I'm just above average.  I don't write VB and stuff, although I have in the past.

Speaking of paug effect, I just couldn't resist myself: here's a chart of frequency by year. I used 1990-2011 and the average for all those years was 31% (30% 1.0-2.0 vs 36% for 3.0). But if you throw out '90-'91, 1.0-2.0 average drops to 21%, almost 2/3rds of the 3.0 average. Conclusion: if you listen to mostly '93 on (I definitely fall in this category), you are likely to consider Possum overplayed in 3.0; if you consider the entire career, it doesn't seem so drastic.

ETA: NERD!!

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 04:09:51 PM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 02:13:16 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 11:40:25 AM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 11:30:54 AM
Yeah, I thought about some of that too.  Even though its a slow day, its not THAT slow.  There is some biased but probably not statistically significant.  1 or 2% in the grand scheme is not a big deal.

Dude, I was just going for a joke. I didn't mean you should actually think about this shit?!  :wink:

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 11:36:20 AM
I did data analysis for almost two years.  I fucking pwn excel, hard.   :evil:

I'm an actuary at an insurance company. I live and breathe excel. I do fantasy football spreadsheets in my spare time! (wait, this isn't coming off the way I wanted it to)

You brought up a good point and I did think about it.  Its the paug affect.  You best know what you are posting. 

I use Excel pretty regularly too.  I have someone on my team that uses it much more effectively than I do, but a few years back I was pretty good at it.  Now I'm just above average.  I don't write VB and stuff, although I have in the past.

Speaking of paug effect, I just couldn't resist myself: here's a chart of frequency by year. I used 1990-2011 and the average for all those years was 31% (30% 1.0-2.0 vs 36% for 3.0). But if you throw out '90-'91, 1.0-2.0 average drops to 21%, almost 2/3rds of the 3.0 average. Conclusion: if you listen to mostly '93 on (I definitely fall in this category), you are likely to consider Possum overplayed in 3.0; if you consider the entire career, it doesn't seem so drastic.

ETA: NERD!!

wow. are you and eb just trying to out nerd each other at this point?

(http://www.thereformedbroker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Nerd-econ.gif)

(http://wowden.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/warcraft_southpark.jpg)

Oh and btw, you are enjoying this information. 

Quote from: goodabouthood on August 10, 2011, 04:43:19 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 04:09:51 PM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 02:13:16 PM

Quote from: runawayjimbo on August 10, 2011, 11:40:25 AM

Quote from: UncleEbinezer on August 10, 2011, 11:30:54 AM
Yeah, I thought about some of that too.  Even though its a slow day, its not THAT slow.  There is some biased but probably not statistically significant.  1 or 2% in the grand scheme is not a big deal.

Dude, I was just going for a joke. I didn't mean you should actually think about this shit?!  :wink:

Quote from: sophist on August 10, 2011, 11:36:20 AM
I did data analysis for almost two years.  I fucking pwn excel, hard.   :evil:

I'm an actuary at an insurance company. I live and breathe excel. I do fantasy football spreadsheets in my spare time! (wait, this isn't coming off the way I wanted it to)

You brought up a good point and I did think about it.  Its the paug affect.  You best know what you are posting. 

I use Excel pretty regularly too.  I have someone on my team that uses it much more effectively than I do, but a few years back I was pretty good at it.  Now I'm just above average.  I don't write VB and stuff, although I have in the past.

Speaking of paug effect, I just couldn't resist myself: here's a chart of frequency by year. I used 1990-2011 and the average for all those years was 31% (30% 1.0-2.0 vs 36% for 3.0). But if you throw out '90-'91, 1.0-2.0 average drops to 21%, almost 2/3rds of the 3.0 average. Conclusion: if you listen to mostly '93 on (I definitely fall in this category), you are likely to consider Possum overplayed in 3.0; if you consider the entire career, it doesn't seem so drastic.

ETA: NERD!!

wow. are you and eb just trying to out nerd each other at this point?

(http://www.thereformedbroker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Nerd-econ.gif)

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Who's winning?

How bout the ultimate Phish nerd talking about not-nerdy Phish stuff... ZZYZX's most recent Phish.net blog post:

QuoteThe changes of 3.0

Posted 1 day ago by zzyzx - 14 comments

One of the things that makes 3.0 feel like older Phish is that it's been evolving. Look back to the first era of Phish. We had the early years where no one knew how songs were going to go - "Fluffhead" and "The Divided Sky" took pieces from other songs to make their final versions - or even who was going to be in the band. Then we had the slow rise of the band as a touring outfit in the early 90s. This led to two distinct peaks in 95 and 97, revolving around different styles. The last thing that could be considered a change would be the addition of the Trey band songs and their groove based jams in 99. Since then Phish kind of felt like the same band. Sometimes they jammed more (2004), sometimes the songs were better played, but between 98 and 04, the change was pretty subtle. They played the same songs - with a large catalog, you couldn't take it over with new songs (giving a show a different feel) the way you could when the Rift songs came out - in the same venues in a fairly similar style. There was some truth to Trey's nostalgia band comments around the time of the breakup. It felt like there was no new direction to go.

That was a question for Phish's return. Where – if anywhere – could they go to make music different from what they have done in the past? They took the Choose Your Own Adventure approach, retreating back to the last safe spot before all of the disasters happened. 2009 feels closer to 1992-3 stylistically than anything else. What's been making it exciting is that the rules have been changing. Remastering the songs first led to subtle improvisational changes (e.g. the end of "Prince Caspian" being surprising in many 2010 versions) and then became the goofy mashup stylings of Fall 2010, where they could play two or three songs interlaced with each other.

We're just getting used to Song Based Jamming, but the rules are changing again. In the four shows since Superball IX, two of them have featured a jam based on the style of the "Storage Jam." It's starting to look like that late night jam might be one of the defining moments of the band, along the lines of how playing Remain in Light started the cowfunk revolution. It's a new style of playing, one that at least will define the end of summer 2011. Maybe it'll be done before Colorado, maybe we'll be hearing jams in this style in 2029. Right now we have absolutely no way of knowing; that by itself is incredibly exciting.

I kind of agree with him. I certainly felt like 09 had that early 90's feel... and I said so in a lot of posts... I haven't listened closely enough to these 2nd leg shows yet to form an opinion, but his is an interesting (in very long view) perspective. The guy's seen more Phish than you... I guarantee it!

Quote from: PIE-GUY on August 11, 2011, 02:06:12 PM
How bout the ultimate Phish nerd talking about not-nerdy Phish stuff... ZZYZX's most recent Phish.net blog post:

QuoteThe changes of 3.0

Posted 1 day ago by zzyzx - 14 comments

One of the things that makes 3.0 feel like older Phish is that it's been evolving. Look back to the first era of Phish. We had the early years where no one knew how songs were going to go - "Fluffhead" and "The Divided Sky" took pieces from other songs to make their final versions - or even who was going to be in the band. Then we had the slow rise of the band as a touring outfit in the early 90s. This led to two distinct peaks in 95 and 97, revolving around different styles. The last thing that could be considered a change would be the addition of the Trey band songs and their groove based jams in 99. Since then Phish kind of felt like the same band. Sometimes they jammed more (2004), sometimes the songs were better played, but between 98 and 04, the change was pretty subtle. They played the same songs - with a large catalog, you couldn't take it over with new songs (giving a show a different feel) the way you could when the Rift songs came out - in the same venues in a fairly similar style. There was some truth to Trey's nostalgia band comments around the time of the breakup. It felt like there was no new direction to go.

That was a question for Phish's return. Where – if anywhere – could they go to make music different from what they have done in the past? They took the Choose Your Own Adventure approach, retreating back to the last safe spot before all of the disasters happened. 2009 feels closer to 1992-3 stylistically than anything else. What's been making it exciting is that the rules have been changing. Remastering the songs first led to subtle improvisational changes (e.g. the end of "Prince Caspian" being surprising in many 2010 versions) and then became the goofy mashup stylings of Fall 2010, where they could play two or three songs interlaced with each other.

We're just getting used to Song Based Jamming, but the rules are changing again. In the four shows since Superball IX, two of them have featured a jam based on the style of the "Storage Jam." It's starting to look like that late night jam might be one of the defining moments of the band, along the lines of how playing Remain in Light started the cowfunk revolution. It's a new style of playing, one that at least will define the end of summer 2011. Maybe it'll be done before Colorado, maybe we'll be hearing jams in this style in 2029. Right now we have absolutely no way of knowing; that by itself is incredibly exciting.

I kind of agree with him. I certainly felt like 09 had that early 90's feel... and I said so in a lot of posts... I haven't listened closely enough to these 2nd leg shows yet to form an opinion, but his is an interesting (in very long view) perspective. The guy's seen more Phish than you... I guarantee it!

Yeah, I saw that. I agree with the comparison in the sense that they are now clearly trying to model themselves on their early-90s incarnation by focusing on playing more songs, but I feel like he's kinda overstating things when he says that the storage jam "might be one of the defining moments of the band, along the lines of how playing Remain in Light started the cowfunk revolution." I mean, really? There's very little that 3.0 Phish is doing right now that they haven't done at some other point in their career. They are basically taking various pieces from various eras and recombining them in different ways. They aren't reinventing themselves like they were in late-96/early-97.

I mean, the guy is a legend in the Phish community, and I'm just some random n00b, but am I alone in thinking that comparison is a bit ridiculous?

Quote from: spaced on August 11, 2011, 05:59:44 PM

Quote from: PIE-GUY on August 11, 2011, 02:06:12 PM
How bout the ultimate Phish nerd talking about not-nerdy Phish stuff... ZZYZX's most recent Phish.net blog post:

QuoteThe changes of 3.0

Posted 1 day ago by zzyzx - 14 comments

One of the things that makes 3.0 feel like older Phish is that it's been evolving. Look back to the first era of Phish. We had the early years where no one knew how songs were going to go - "Fluffhead" and "The Divided Sky" took pieces from other songs to make their final versions - or even who was going to be in the band. Then we had the slow rise of the band as a touring outfit in the early 90s. This led to two distinct peaks in 95 and 97, revolving around different styles. The last thing that could be considered a change would be the addition of the Trey band songs and their groove based jams in 99. Since then Phish kind of felt like the same band. Sometimes they jammed more (2004), sometimes the songs were better played, but between 98 and 04, the change was pretty subtle. They played the same songs - with a large catalog, you couldn't take it over with new songs (giving a show a different feel) the way you could when the Rift songs came out - in the same venues in a fairly similar style. There was some truth to Trey's nostalgia band comments around the time of the breakup. It felt like there was no new direction to go.

That was a question for Phish's return. Where – if anywhere – could they go to make music different from what they have done in the past? They took the Choose Your Own Adventure approach, retreating back to the last safe spot before all of the disasters happened. 2009 feels closer to 1992-3 stylistically than anything else. What's been making it exciting is that the rules have been changing. Remastering the songs first led to subtle improvisational changes (e.g. the end of "Prince Caspian" being surprising in many 2010 versions) and then became the goofy mashup stylings of Fall 2010, where they could play two or three songs interlaced with each other.

We're just getting used to Song Based Jamming, but the rules are changing again. In the four shows since Superball IX, two of them have featured a jam based on the style of the "Storage Jam." It's starting to look like that late night jam might be one of the defining moments of the band, along the lines of how playing Remain in Light started the cowfunk revolution. It's a new style of playing, one that at least will define the end of summer 2011. Maybe it'll be done before Colorado, maybe we'll be hearing jams in this style in 2029. Right now we have absolutely no way of knowing; that by itself is incredibly exciting.

I kind of agree with him. I certainly felt like 09 had that early 90's feel... and I said so in a lot of posts... I haven't listened closely enough to these 2nd leg shows yet to form an opinion, but his is an interesting (in very long view) perspective. The guy's seen more Phish than you... I guarantee it!

Yeah, I saw that. I agree with the comparison in the sense that they are now clearly trying to model themselves on their early-90s incarnation by focusing on playing more songs, but I feel like he's kinda overstating things when he says that the storage jam "might be one of the defining moments of the band, along the lines of how playing Remain in Light started the cowfunk revolution." I mean, really? There's very little that 3.0 Phish is doing right now that they haven't done at some other point in their career. They are basically taking various pieces from various eras and recombining them in different ways. They aren't reinventing themselves like they were in late-96/early-97.

I mean, the guy is a legend in the Phish community, and I'm just some random n00b, but am I alone in thinking that comparison is a bit ridiculous?

Nope.

Dude should listen to the Tower Jam again, it's def along the same lines of the Storage Jam, but better.

I like the take that ZZYZX has and it gives me hope for the future.

It's hard to imagine that one show can redefine the band like RiL did in 96 when they aren't touring consistently for months on end... there's just no time for new directions to gel in that way.

Quote from: PIE-GUY on August 11, 2011, 06:42:37 PM
It's hard to imagine that one show can redefine the band like RiL did in 96 when they aren't touring consistently for months on end... there's just no time for new directions to gel in that way.

I agree, Dave.  But I like his(zzyzx) take on the whole thing too.   

one thought about how much something gets played.....

size of catalog.....

back in 90 they had less songs to pull from, so of course some songs will get played to death.....now look at the size of their catalog compared to what songs now get played a lot.....

Possum is overplayed.

And, when I think about the 3.0 Halloween shows I see them more as sign posts of where Phish is today than drivers of what Phish may become. I loved both of them, but RiL they are not.

Quote from: PIE-GUY on August 11, 2011, 07:44:42 PM
And, when I think about the 3.0 Halloween shows I see them more as sign posts of where Phish is today than drivers of what Phish may become. I loved both of them, but RiL they are not.

agreed.

Quote from: Hicks on August 11, 2011, 06:04:38 PM

Dude should listen to the Tower Jam again, it's def along the same lines of the Storage Jam, but better.

agreed.  The Tower Jam from 14:59-31:00 is some of my favorite Phish improv.

Quote from: Gumbo72203 on July 05, 2011, 10:06:12 PM
Well, here we are just at the passing of the latest Phish festival.  Anything different from F8?  Kinda not really.  But, certain things have come to light which I just can't sit on without getting other interweb Phish elitists thoughts on.

First, we have the current state of the band.  I am not knocking the performance, because they are playing well.  Certain things have come to be expected and must be taken at face value, such as the "I-fucked-up-so-many-times-that-they-became-new-arrangements" versions of Gotta Jibboo and Mike's Song, the ripcord and/or fhorsing of the segues, etc.  But on the other hand, there are some fucking monumental versions of songs with great fucking playing.

From my limited exposure to this summer, I count the following as worthy of repeated listenings:  6/1 Tweezer, Twist, and Number Line, 6/3 DWD, 6/8 Weekapaug > Whats The Use? > Theme, 6/11 Wilson > Sand, etc.


Anyway, point being, there are good, and bad things.  Now, the focus of this post is that I believe the band to be in tune with the majority of the audience at the shows: young kids, inexperienced with Phish who want to party.


A few weeks ago at work, these 2 kids who I figured couldn't be more than 16 or 17 were in the store, messing around on guitars together, trying to sing and play "Free".  I entered the conversation with my comment about being able to buy Trey's guitars from Paul for $25,000.  We get talking, and kid 2 is like "How many times have you seen Phish?  Were you at SPAC last year?" and I'm like "uhh, I don't know, and yeah I was at both."  He goes "I went to the 1st one, it was awesome, it was the first time I saw them." 

So, I'm trying to remember what they played, and kid 2 is like "They played Suzy, Prince Caspian...  and Character Zero!  Oh, and they played Sample In a Jar too!  Those were incredible!!!"   Meanwhile, my head starts shaking in disappointment, and then Kid 1 comes in with "Yeah, it was the Rock and Roll, Page's new song, the double Tweeprise...." and I'm like "Oh yeah, with Gin, and Fluffhead..."

Anyway, so it turns out Kid 1 has seen 3.0 like a shitload of times.  He's way younger than me.  We get talking, and I'm asking him about all these old shows, if he's ever heard Big Cypress, etc etc and he asks me "Well, what do you think about them now?" to which I reply "Well..........  its complicated.  They're obviously having a blast, and thats awesome, they're playing well, Trey is sober, they're enjoying themselves on stage, and that matters the most.  But... I really wish they would jam more.  The jamming that they do do is great, Darien was evidence of that, but.... they need to push 15 mins more often."

And so I'm like "Okay, well whats your favorite period?"  And hes like "Probably '97-'98...  I like the funk."  I get a big grin, and go "YES, with the REAL version of Ghost, with the whammy loops" and he's like "Yeah theres a ton of incredible shows, they were doing something amazing almost every night.  The show from Rochester in '97.... and the big Runaway Jim, the Hampton release..." and I'm like "OKay, you get it."

But then he's like "But I really like what they're doing now."   And I'm stunned. 

And then I read on one of the Superball show review pages that some kid turned to a nearby person and exclaimed, with great exuberance "THIS IS SUCH A SICK JAM!!!!" when Trey was doing the looping opening to Silent In The Morning.  Couple this with the person I encountered who did basically the same thing during Whats The Use? at Darien....

...and we get a band who is playing to their enraptured, yet uneducated and ignorant audience.  They're playing to the kids who want to hear rawk songs, who want to be able to claim they played the best version of Sample In A Jar, and who want to throw glow sticks.  These kids care nothing for big, epic jams, and don't know the difference between what they're experiencing, which in their minds is an objectively amazing experience, and what had happened before. 


So, Phish can basically phone it in with little effort, and be hailed as gods and the saviors of everything "hip" and groovy.  Just like the horde of hoola-hooping tweeners at Darien who couldn't answer "46 Days" when I had a total brainfart at the beginning of that song and asked them for help.


So, I don't know......  what do you guys think?  I mean, F8 had like zero big jamming, although the version of Piper -> JAM from that is absolutely awesome, but here we get 7 sets of Phish without anything remotely experimental, aside from the Storage Jam which I have yet to hear, as well as a festival with no YEM or Slave.......


Are we in for a less-jammed Phish, due to the audience demographics?  I think its the case.  I'm hoping they're going on an early-90's trajectory still, of no big jams but very incredible playing, like how basically until 1994 there was never any non-composed song that would top 13-14 mins with any regularity (by composed song I mean Bowie, YEM, Fluffhead, etc).  It was only Summer '94 when Tweezer began its lengthening, followed by Mike's Song in '95, and then DWD, Gin and Tweezer in '96.....



So, anyway...  does Phish take the audience make-up into account?  Can that be levied as an adequate explanation?

THIS IS A RESPONSE TO GUMBO'S ORIGINAL POST: I havent read past his post in this thread.

what i'm responding to is the fact that i find it interesting to look into what 'kids' these days consider music.
moreso to the point, that i think with the end of the 20th century music appreciation as we had known it changed forever.
the entire restructuring of the music industry with the advent of the internet  and the demise of the LP format HAS to have had an effect on how new music is appreciated, and therefore the integrity of the listeners.
i think you, gumbo, are in fact a part of the final  generation of people that will ever now what real music was for us. in fact, you might have missed the boat as far as live music, but caught the tail end of nostalgia from the previous generation.

i really dont know where popular music and its appreciation is headed.
i cant imagine we will ever see a band 'like' phish again, or moreso fans that appreciate music like we have.

without rambling on, i just think there is more going on with phish than just phish or the fans.
i think everyone is a product of the musical and social climate in which we now exist.
basically ... MEH. 
the majority of young people i meet now have nowhere near as much to say about music, or art in general, as when i was their age.
i think it will take a major social shift in america before we see some new viable art as we did with the proliferation of rock and roll from the late 20th century, or even taking it back to the jazz and blues roots of the early 20th century.

welcome to the plastic, bland, consumable 21st century. enjoy and please recycle.  :?

Really like your post Slim.  Just to add a bit...I don't feel an appreciation of music is being lost or younger people in general have a lack of appreciation.  I certainly feel todays Phish fans are in general "dumber" and less "appreciative of "real" music, and have stated numerous times here that I feel that's the reason for the bands hit and miss nature these days.  But I also firmly feel that "REAL" music fans these days are not paying much attention to Phish right now.  There is a group of 15-30 year olds that love real music....they listen to jazz and classical and many other wonderful "real" forms of music.  But, when they go to a concert this summer...they are not going to see Phish.  They are going to see Animal Collective, Arcade Fire, etc etc....indie bands are the bulk of "real" music these days to many younger music fans and more recently, me. 

I went to see Phish over 30 times last year for one reason and one reason only:  I wanted to see them get better, night to night, over the course of a tour...over the course of a whole year.  This year I have seen them 4 times.  Why???  Two reasons. First, they just are not getting better at the rate I expected or hoped.  If at all.  Second...I saw some amazing bands this year not named Phish.  Arcade Fire absolutely impresses live.  They are tight as hell and play a different set every night.  They don't jam.  But, thats not the focus of their art.  They put on a hell of a show that is better than listening to albums at home.  Vocals are great, playing is dead on and they provide variety by crafting a feel with their set lists, themes and emotions.  Different each night, some more than others.  Sections go together and feel right.  Then, there is Animal Collective.

AnCo IS this generations Phish/Dead blah, blah, blah.  They change and grow every show.  Their sound changes every album, their members are prolific and constantly growing, changing and pushing their music forward.  Never satisfied with the same.  Even a whole tour of the same exact setlist is more varied and interesting than most Phish shows. At least to me, at least to a growing number of what I and others would certainly call "REAL" music fans. 

I see Phish because I love them, because they are an inseparable part of my growing up and learning about this world.  Not because they change my musical appreciation or challenge me.  If that is the reason anyone here is going, they are kinda lying to themselves.  Phish is great.  They are not the end of anything. There are others in their old role out there making "real" music, now. 

Yeah, I have to disagree with the whole point about music appreciation being dead... that we are the "final generation" to have great music. It's an argument that has been made with every passing generation... because with every passing generation there is good music and there is novelty music.

I'll explain... the 80's saw some of the worst novelty music ever. One hit wonders abound... groups that made a big commercial impact were generally either pop (New Kids on the Block, Debbie Gibson, etc) or cheesy metal (Motley Crue, Poison). But from that same period you get Talking Heads going through the peak of a brilliant career.

But, again, this has always been the case. The top 5 songs of 1967 include the Beatles, Aretha Franklin, Van Morison, AND the Monkees. Novelty music has always been there and always will be.

(http://birger.blogs.dsv.su.se/files/2011/02/simpson-cloud.jpg)

music is dead. get over it.

animal collective Is Phish or Dead? LMAO.

i find this to be a self evident truth no matter what time period:

Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is the best...
-FZ

I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

You named about 50 minutes out of what, 10 hours of music so far?  Pass.  When they get back to melting faces every night, then give me a call.  And I LOL at calling them the best touring band in the world.  Just because you have the most fun at their shows doesn't translate to their level of talent.  Those two things are mutually exclusive.  You always seem to miss that point Scotty.  You raging like a mother fucker doesn't mean the music is awesome.  It just means you know how to have a good time.  In fact, when we actually get down to the music, there's really little to nothing to say about it, unlike the catalog of work that is 1.0, where one could opine for years on end with what they did in their prime. 

Quote from: VA $l!m on August 12, 2011, 03:16:33 PM
music is dead. get over it.

animal collective Is Phish or Dead? LMAO.

In terms of pushing music that evokes a collective conscience?  Yes.  Without a doubt they are the most psychedelic band out there right now.  I'm sorry you're feeling old and bitter at the moment dude, but music is far from dead.   So many bands are making amazing music right now.  I get my face ripped off everyday by something new.  Quit being senile, and go expose yourself to the plethora of amazing artists out there.  Amazing hip hop, jazz, funk, electronic, indie, noise, experimental, classical, etc is being produced everyday and it's fucking musical gold. 

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

you gotta get out more. 
you really think their "jams" are better?
what happened to segues?

fwiw, jauntee jams better right now.   :-D :wtu:

Quote from: bvaz on August 12, 2011, 08:19:58 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

you gotta get out more. 
you really think their "jams" are better?
what happened to segues?

fwiw, jauntee jams better right now.   :-D :wtu:

I do think that their bigger jams of the night have been consistently better these past 5 shows.

And I appreciate the compliment about the Jauntee, but really?  We definitely jam HARDER than Phish does now and get more explorative, but I sure don't think the jams we have are at the level of musicianship Phish jams have.


And Sophist, I would never expect you to agree with me. Our musical tastes are clearly different.  But I do know many people here who share my same opinion (two of them being JPhishman and Anthrax who I spoke about this in Tahoe) and I know there are plenty others who would agree.  The music is still awesome.

Yeah, saying Phish is the best band touring in the world is absolutely ridiculous.  :|  They may be your favorite but far, far from the best.

And slim...your ignorance is the real laughing point here.  Go to a show...see how attentive and respectful their fans are...reminds me a lot of the early phish fans, before the Dead influx after Jerry passed.  :roll:  Like Sophists suggests...actually listen to some new stuff then I suggest you laugh at how much you've been missing.  :wink:

It's not a matter of in-exposure to other bands, it's a matter of opinion.

Like I have said before on this board, I've seen AC and Arcade Fire before, and to call their live shows better than Phish is laughable to me.

I'd like to hear the leading improvisational band/musician(minus Derek Trucks), anyone? 

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 08:26:30 PM

Quote from: bvaz on August 12, 2011, 08:19:58 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

you gotta get out more. 
you really think their "jams" are better?
what happened to segues?

fwiw, jauntee jams better right now.   :-D :wtu:

I do think that their bigger jams of the night have been consistently better these past 5 shows.

And I appreciate the compliment about the Jauntee, but really?  We definitely jam HARDER than Phish does now and get more explorative, but I sure don't think the jams we have are at the level of musicianship Phish jams have.


And Sophist, I would never expect you to agree with me. Our musical tastes are clearly different.  But I do know many people here who share my same opinion (two of them being JPhishman and Anthrax who I spoke about this in Tahoe) and I know there are plenty others who would agree.

ha scott.  I was just joking.  but if you want me to expand.

I think all Phish does for me right now is give me familiarity.  jauntee jams and jauntee segues.  honestly that is what I like.  everyone here has figured out I turned into a moe.ron.  moe. can on a real shitty show.  I looked forward to the newport show for months and it was just going through the motions for them.  a couple or 3 good highlights but lackluster.  same with NYE last year.
but I like exploratory jams and segues and I am just not getting ti worth phish.  phish will ALWAYS be my favorite band but 3.0 phish is what it is.

seriously though.  I still love a phish show for nostalgia and some highlights in every show.  but I truly do love a jauntee show and bands like kung fu, seed, turbine and a bunch of others and even more I plan on hearing.

I knock phish as much as anyone except sophist but so many other bands including jauntee give me what I am missing with phish.

yeah, your exploratory jams and segues are better than what phish is actually doing now IMO.  as your songs get more familiar as they are now and are getting, I have a blast.  I'm not skipping phish to see you, but it doesn't mean I don't walk away smiling.

eta:  sometimes it is more about what "I" look for i shows.  I have no desire to see phish right now if it isn't within a 2 or 3 hour drive.  but frankly, that is the same for any  other band right now except moe.
but I happen to live in an area where there is music every night within an hour drive.   :-D

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 08:29:14 PM
It's not a matter of in-exposure to other bands, it's a matter of opinion.

Like I have said before on this board, I've seen AC and Arcade Fire before, and to call their live shows better than Phish is laughable to me.

Depends.  AF absolutely plays their songs better, they are a tighter band right now today.  No mistakes type better playing.  They could also be considered "better" writers...they DID win a Grammy.  All of their Suburbs album is "better" than anything Phish has done IMO since Rift compositionally.

AnCo is better at experimenting with their music.  They improvise more often and to a deeper degree. 

What EXACTLY is Phish better at than any other band out there touring....Hell....Elton John was far BETTER than Phish when I saw him.  He jammed more, his band was better rehearsed and practiced and HIS Rocket Man was 20 minutes full of full band interplay and face melting piano.

What are they better at?

As far as my personal liking for improvisational based rock, Phish is the most "connected" band out there while jamming.  They are better listeners (yes, even in 3.0) than any other improvisational rock band I've seen.

This excludes MANY, MANY amazing Jazz musicians out there, who are clearly more technically proficient and better listeners than any member of Phish, but that's not what I'm looking for.

There are surely tighter bands out there (AF may be one of them) but they also have a MUCH less extensive catalog when touring.  They play similar or even the exact same show every night with little improvisation. 

I can agree that AC is more experimental with their music, but their on-stage musicianship is unparalleled to Phish.  Fishman makes AC's drummer look silly, imo (I know Sophist will disagree).  Animal Collective are studio genius' as well as being very impressive with improvising loop based material.  But that doesn't get me off like 4 guys on stage organically jamming together.

And like all of this, the compositional argument is subjective.  I enjoy listening to Joy more than I do Suburbs.

I have a lot of respect for you WTU but I'm going to have to agree to disagree. 
I sort of agree with sophist (except not in the mean way he put it), you seem to be able to put aside phish's faults and have a good time.  that is part of my respect.  but if you put aside other band's faults and had a good time, I am not sure it would translate to phish being the best touring band on the planet.

long story short.  be happy.  phish definitely makes you happy.  live it up.  I know I turned into a hater but I really try so hard not to be.
phish changed my life like nothing or no one else ever will.  but it doesn't mean 2011 phish has that influence.

and when is the next jauntee show?  I found a card in my bag about some festi in september.  guess I need to plan to be there.  we need more jauntee updates.  where's that king of prussia guy?

I guess there is just something inside of me that makes love this band uncontrollably.  It's unexplainable. It's an obsession beyond obsessions.

They are clearly at their least exploratory, and least creative musical point in their careers, yet, I still can't get enough. Those 4 guys make incredible music together.  An improvisational connection I find nowhere else.

Quote from: bvaz on August 12, 2011, 09:09:50 PM
and when is the next jauntee show?  I found a card in my bag about some festi in september.  guess I need to plan to be there.  we need more jauntee updates.  where's that king of prussia guy?

>>> http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=18087.new#new (http://week4paug.net/index.php?topic=18087.new#new)

Quote from: sophist on August 12, 2011, 05:13:58 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

You named about 50 minutes out of what, 10 hours of music so far?  Pass.  When they get back to melting faces every night, then give me a call.  And I LOL at calling them the best touring band in the world.  Just because you have the most fun at their shows doesn't translate to their level of talent.  Those two things are mutually exclusive.  You always seem to miss that point Scotty.  You raging like a mother fucker doesn't mean the music is awesome.  It just means you know how to have a good time.  In fact, when we actually get down to the music, there's really little to nothing to say about it, unlike the catalog of work that is 1.0, where one could opine for years on end with what they did in their prime. 

Quote from: VA $l!m on August 12, 2011, 03:16:33 PM
music is dead. get over it.

animal collective Is Phish or Dead? LMAO.

In terms of pushing music that evokes a collective conscience?  Yes.  Without a doubt they are the most psychedelic band out there right now.  I'm sorry you're feeling old and bitter at the moment dude, but music is far from dead.   So many bands are making amazing music right now.  I get my face ripped off everyday by something new.  Quit being senile, and go expose yourself to the plethora of amazing artists out there.  Amazing hip hop, jazz, funk, electronic, indie, noise, experimental, classical, etc is being produced everyday and it's fucking musical gold.

you're missing my point, but obviously there is a lot more discussion goin on in this thread then what i was trying to point out.
i'm not talking about whether or not i personally enjoy music that is being produced by bands today.
i am more trying to point out a non disbutable fact that today's music and the way in which it is appreciated has changed forever.

do you not think that the fact that popular music is consumed, and as a result produced, completely differently than it was over the last 50 years of the 20th century could change how it is appreciated?

Quote from: VA $l!m on August 13, 2011, 12:10:13 PM

Quote from: sophist on August 12, 2011, 05:13:58 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

You named about 50 minutes out of what, 10 hours of music so far?  Pass.  When they get back to melting faces every night, then give me a call.  And I LOL at calling them the best touring band in the world.  Just because you have the most fun at their shows doesn't translate to their level of talent.  Those two things are mutually exclusive.  You always seem to miss that point Scotty.  You raging like a mother fucker doesn't mean the music is awesome.  It just means you know how to have a good time.  In fact, when we actually get down to the music, there's really little to nothing to say about it, unlike the catalog of work that is 1.0, where one could opine for years on end with what they did in their prime. 

Quote from: VA $l!m on August 12, 2011, 03:16:33 PM
music is dead. get over it.

animal collective Is Phish or Dead? LMAO.

In terms of pushing music that evokes a collective conscience?  Yes.  Without a doubt they are the most psychedelic band out there right now.  I'm sorry you're feeling old and bitter at the moment dude, but music is far from dead.   So many bands are making amazing music right now.  I get my face ripped off everyday by something new.  Quit being senile, and go expose yourself to the plethora of amazing artists out there.  Amazing hip hop, jazz, funk, electronic, indie, noise, experimental, classical, etc is being produced everyday and it's fucking musical gold.

you're missing my point, but obviously there is a lot more discussion goin on in this thread then what i was trying to point out.
i'm not talking about whether or not i personally enjoy music that is being produced by bands today.
i am more trying to point out a non disbutable fact that today's music and the way in which it is appreciated has changed forever.

do you not think that the fact that popular music is consumed, and as a result produced, completely differently than it was over the last 50 years of the 20th century could change how it is appreciated?

I hear what you're saying. About how the way we listen to music also affects the way we appreciate music. The fact that we can now easily download a single within seconds changes also the way music is produced. Band/artists no longer (in general) conceptualize entire albums, a sides, b sides, the flow of an album, etc. The younger generations short attention spans require quick easy to digest material. Also, what defines popular music changes with time too. At one point in time Jazz was popular music, for example.

i still like phish.

Quote from: VA $l!m on August 13, 2011, 12:10:13 PM

Quote from: sophist on August 12, 2011, 05:13:58 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

You named about 50 minutes out of what, 10 hours of music so far?  Pass.  When they get back to melting faces every night, then give me a call.  And I LOL at calling them the best touring band in the world.  Just because you have the most fun at their shows doesn't translate to their level of talent.  Those two things are mutually exclusive.  You always seem to miss that point Scotty.  You raging like a mother fucker doesn't mean the music is awesome.  It just means you know how to have a good time.  In fact, when we actually get down to the music, there's really little to nothing to say about it, unlike the catalog of work that is 1.0, where one could opine for years on end with what they did in their prime. 

Quote from: VA $l!m on August 12, 2011, 03:16:33 PM
music is dead. get over it.

animal collective Is Phish or Dead? LMAO.

In terms of pushing music that evokes a collective conscience?  Yes.  Without a doubt they are the most psychedelic band out there right now.  I'm sorry you're feeling old and bitter at the moment dude, but music is far from dead.   So many bands are making amazing music right now.  I get my face ripped off everyday by something new.  Quit being senile, and go expose yourself to the plethora of amazing artists out there.  Amazing hip hop, jazz, funk, electronic, indie, noise, experimental, classical, etc is being produced everyday and it's fucking musical gold.

you're missing my point, but obviously there is a lot more discussion goin on in this thread then what i was trying to point out.
i'm not talking about whether or not i personally enjoy music that is being produced by bands today.
i am more trying to point out a non disbutable fact that today's music and the way in which it is appreciated has changed forever.

do you not think that the fact that popular music is consumed, and as a result produced, completely differently than it was over the last 50 years of the 20th century could change how it is appreciated?

The fallacy of your logic is that music was produced and consumed the same way between 1950-2000, when nothing can be further from the truth.

It's been constantly changing the whole time.

Quote from: Hicks on August 13, 2011, 01:54:25 PM

Quote from: VA $l!m on August 13, 2011, 12:10:13 PM

Quote from: sophist on August 12, 2011, 05:13:58 PM

Quote from: WhatstheUse? on August 12, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
I have some thoughts...Phish is easily still the best touring band in the world.

The setlists are still getting 3.0'd and the jams are still getting cut off but that is no different than the last 3 years.  What I am seeing this tour is a huge improvement on the "bigger jams" of each night. The Gorge R&R and Antelope....and Tahoe Light and Jim all kick ass.  Better than a lot of the "jams" I saw 1st leg. Haters are missing out.

You named about 50 minutes out of what, 10 hours of music so far?  Pass.  When they get back to melting faces every night, then give me a call.  And I LOL at calling them the best touring band in the world.  Just because you have the most fun at their shows doesn't translate to their level of talent.  Those two things are mutually exclusive.  You always seem to miss that point Scotty.  You raging like a mother fucker doesn't mean the music is awesome.  It just means you know how to have a good time.  In fact, when we actually get down to the music, there's really little to nothing to say about it, unlike the catalog of work that is 1.0, where one could opine for years on end with what they did in their prime. 

Quote from: VA $l!m on August 12, 2011, 03:16:33 PM
music is dead. get over it.

animal collective Is Phish or Dead? LMAO.

In terms of pushing music that evokes a collective conscience?  Yes.  Without a doubt they are the most psychedelic band out there right now.  I'm sorry you're feeling old and bitter at the moment dude, but music is far from dead.   So many bands are making amazing music right now.  I get my face ripped off everyday by something new.  Quit being senile, and go expose yourself to the plethora of amazing artists out there.  Amazing hip hop, jazz, funk, electronic, indie, noise, experimental, classical, etc is being produced everyday and it's fucking musical gold.

you're missing my point, but obviously there is a lot more discussion goin on in this thread then what i was trying to point out.
i'm not talking about whether or not i personally enjoy music that is being produced by bands today.
i am more trying to point out a non disbutable fact that today's music and the way in which it is appreciated has changed forever.

do you not think that the fact that popular music is consumed, and as a result produced, completely differently than it was over the last 50 years of the 20th century could change how it is appreciated?

The fallacy of your logic is that music was produced and consumed the same way between 1950-2000, when nothing can be further from the truth.

It's been constantly changing the whole time.

to be specific you are correct.
i on the other hand assume most people can understand the generalization i am making.

however i am done with this thread. i'm far from teh mood of arguing my point with anyone here. have a nice day.

Phish is playing good right now.  So much consistently better than the first leg.  I'd put it as my favorite 3.0 tour so far along with Leg II Summer 2010.

Just watched some of the vimeo picks from this leg for the first time and was very pleased.  The Gorge Roggae, Tahoe Light, & UIC Undermind are fantastic type 2 jamming.

The type II jams are there, and coming in unexpected places from time to time.  Trey is being patient and laying back in a bunch of the bigger jams from this tour.  He doesn't do much other than add textures/rhythms during that light jam for about the last 7 minutes -- it's great playing and allows mike to take the lead.

I'd say the only dud show of the tour so far was Hollywood Bowl.  The other 8 have been high-energy Phish with more big highlights than your average 3.0 tour, imo. My favs have been:

Gorge:  R&R>Meatstick>Boogie, Roggae, Antelope

Tahoe:   Light, Walls of the Cave, Runaway Jim

UIC:   Alumni, Waves>Undermind, LxL, DWD, C&P>No Quarter


Colorado will be awesome.  :wtu: :phish:

I'm seriously stoked about this last leg and haven't heard a note.
:phish:

Just got done reading the Post Show 08-17-11 thread while listening to the show for the first time.  There was a lot of talk in there about Trey having ADD.  While a less than four minute Ghost is of course respectable evidence for the ADD argument, I have to confess that there is also another factor that effects my ability to make any sort of educated review of any show anymore:

My ADD


No I don't have a clinical problem, and mean no disrespect by using the colloquial understanding of ADD, but there are a lot of things that crop up every day that distract from my ability to analyze music with any sort of objectivity.  I'm lucky if I can sequester two solid hours a day to listen to any music without interruption.  An hour is more likely, and less than that is more realistic.  The office I work in is quiet and demands that I be able to hear and interact with coworkers. 

When that hour (or please God, two hours) comes, last night's show has to compete with the Miller/MOTB/Old School Taper source I also picked up today, as well as the suggested albums already in the listening chute.  Then there is my mood.  Someeretimes the experimental album in the suggestion pile is too much for me to handle at the moment and I'll retreat to the comfort of a Here Comes Sunshine from 1973 instead.  Sometimes I'm in the mood for some Phish, but rather than something I don't know, I reach for an old favorite, like the 11-17-97 Ghost  :evil: and run out of listening time.

Back onto thread point, here is what I've observed about myself:


1.  A random 1.0 show I thrown on, no matter how solidly reviewed, has a 50/50 shot of holding my attention through the entirety of my listening session.  I'll hit the reviewed highlights first, move on to personal favorites, to cool looking segues, and finally the rest, if I don't have time to listen to the whole show.  A 2.0 or 3.0 show has pretty much the same chance. 

2.  If I'm in the mood to listen to Phish, the show I'm currently listening to is my favorite.  Might not stand the test of time, but it's almost always an enjoyable and engrossing listening.   

3.  I can't  name the last 1.0, 2.0, or 3.0 show I listened to in it's entirety twice in the last 6 months. 



Increased availability of digitally disseminated  sources, coupled with the increase in communication enabled by this distribution, has made us more vocally discriminate in our "trump shows", especially for the show that is closest to recent memory.   

Very well put nab.
+K

Quote from: Buffalo Budd on August 28, 2011, 12:10:51 PM
Very well put nab.
+K

agreed.  :clap: