Political Vids/Images

[nab]

3) Lincoln was actually kind of a dick who didn't think the slaves were equal and supported plans to send them back to Africa. Of course, I probably learned that from the Internet too so who knows if that's true (see #1).

you're thinking of jefferson.

No, I'm quite sure Lincoln also supported sending them back to Africa.

You're right he was morally opposed to the institution of slavery, but he also didn't believe they would be able to integrate into society once freed and viewed this (as many at the time did) as the most just remedy. Much like our current President, his views evolved, though it wasn't some astounding feat of altruism but a political calculus (again, sounds familiar). It was because once the slaves were freed and 200,000 served in the Union army, he couldn't very well say, "Hey, thanks for joining us against the dudes who used to whip and rape you. Now get on this boat so someone else can come force you into bondage." So, in that sense, phil is also right that a large (not the only, but a large) motivation behind the Emancipation Proclamation was to strengthen the Union ranks as much as it was to end what Lincoln saw as an unjust institution.

Are you as sure of this as you were of the authorship of that proto-prosperity gospel poster? Take a minute.

Well, the Accessible, Probably Reliable (in many cases), Not Fully Fact Checked Brigade (wikipedia) makes this case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Colonization_Society#Lincoln_and_the_ACS

)Since the 1840s, Lincoln, an admirer of Clay, had been an advocate of the ACS program of colonizing blacks in Liberia. In an 1854 speech in Illinois, he pointed out the immense difficulties inherent in such an approach and the miniscule chance that it had of becoming an easy way of quickly ending slavery.[13]

Early in his presidency, Abraham Lincoln tried repeatedly to arrange resettlement of the kind the ACS supported, but each arrangement failed; see Abraham Lincoln on slavery. Most scholars believe that Lincoln abandoned the idea by 1863, following the use of black troops. Biographer Stephen B. Oates has observed that Lincoln thought it immoral to ask black soldiers to fight for the US and then to remove them to Africa after their military service. Others, such as the historian Michael Lind, believe that as late 1864 or 1865, Lincoln continued to hold out hope for colonization, noting that he allegedly asked Attorney General Edward Bates if the Reverend James Mitchell could stay on as "your assistant or aid in the matter of executing the several acts of Congress relating to the emigration or colonizing of the freed Blacks."[14] Mitchell, a former state director of the ACS in Indiana, had been appointed by Lincoln in 1862 to oversee the government's colonization programs. In his second term as president, on April 11, 1865, Lincoln gave a speech supporting suffrage for blacks.

Fake Lincoln quote aside, historiography is still undecided, in spite of  the Best of the IHR.   

[runawayjimbo]

3) Lincoln was actually kind of a dick who didn't think the slaves were equal and supported plans to send them back to Africa. Of course, I probably learned that from the Internet too so who knows if that's true (see #1).

you're thinking of jefferson.

No, I'm quite sure Lincoln also supported sending them back to Africa.

You're right he was morally opposed to the institution of slavery, but he also didn't believe they would be able to integrate into society once freed and viewed this (as many at the time did) as the most just remedy. Much like our current President, his views evolved, though it wasn't some astounding feat of altruism but a political calculus (again, sounds familiar). It was because once the slaves were freed and 200,000 served in the Union army, he couldn't very well say, "Hey, thanks for joining us against the dudes who used to whip and rape you. Now get on this boat so someone else can come force you into bondage." So, in that sense, phil is also right that a large (not the only, but a large) motivation behind the Emancipation Proclamation was to strengthen the Union ranks as much as it was to end what Lincoln saw as an unjust institution.

Are you as sure of this as you were of the authorship of that proto-prosperity gospel poster? Take a minute.

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

To be clear, I wasn't trying to pull a fast one on the quote; I saw it on Twitter (which was probably my first mistake) and threw it up here. But, as I also said, I think the statements are quite valid regardless of whether racist ole' Abe Lincoln said them or not.

[mbw]

To be clear, I wasn't trying to pull a fast one on the quote; I saw it on Twitter (which was probably my first mistake) and threw it up here. But, as I also said, I think the statements are quite valid regardless of whether racist ole' Abe Lincoln said them or not.

:lol:

and to be clear, i didnt mean to imply i thought abe's intentions were all pure, but i got a kick out of how phil put it, and i envisioned former slave state history class...

:In yokel voice:
"Now kids, lets be clear, Abraham Lincoln only freed the slaves so he could send em in to kill us.  In fact, he hated n*****s just as much as the rest of us do....I mean did...I mean..."

[runawayjimbo]

To be clear, I wasn't trying to pull a fast one on the quote; I saw it on Twitter (which was probably my first mistake) and threw it up here. But, as I also said, I think the statements are quite valid regardless of whether racist ole' Abe Lincoln said them or not.

:lol:

and to be clear, i didnt mean to imply i thought abe's intentions were all pure, but i got a kick out of how phil put it, and i envisioned former slave state history class...

:In yokel voice:
"Now kids, lets be clear, Abraham Lincoln only freed the slaves so he could send em in to kill us.  In fact, he hated n*****s just as much as the rest of us do....I mean did...I mean..."

And, just be clear on one other thing, I never thought you were racist, MBW, until that Morgan Freeman joke in LST the other night. That was...what's the word...dark.

[antelope19]

Tread lightly........

No personal attacks for opposing views, just lucid, intellectual discussions please.  We don't want to create tension that expands beyond this topic - we all share a common bond of Phish and live music in general, so let's not forget that... we're all on the same side!! 

In the words of Ali G, "Respekt, a'ight?"

[runawayjimbo]

Tread lightly........

No personal attacks for opposing views, just lucid, intellectual discussions please.  We don't want to create tension that expands beyond this topic - we all share a common bond of Phish and live music in general, so let's not forget that... we're all on the same side!! 

In the words of Ali G, "Respekt, a'ight?"

Ah, I can't believe I have to note that I was kidding, but....I was kidding.

[mbw]

To be clear, I wasn't trying to pull a fast one on the quote; I saw it on Twitter (which was probably my first mistake) and threw it up here. But, as I also said, I think the statements are quite valid regardless of whether racist ole' Abe Lincoln said them or not.

:lol:

and to be clear, i didnt mean to imply i thought abe's intentions were all pure, but i got a kick out of how phil put it, and i envisioned former slave state history class...

:In yokel voice:
"Now kids, lets be clear, Abraham Lincoln only freed the slaves so he could send em in to kill us.  In fact, he hated n*****s just as much as the rest of us do....I mean did...I mean..."

And, just be clear on one other thing, I never thought you were racist, MBW, until that Morgan Freeman joke in LST the other night. That was...what's the word...dark.

:hereitisyousentimentalbastard

[mbw]

[runawayjimbo]

I'm calling bullshit on that one. I'm almost positive the Interent wasn't around during the Civil War.

Also, lulz at MBW for being FB friends with "BeingLiberal.org" (I kid, I kid).

[mbw]

Actually, I'm not, but a bunch of my internet friends are.  The funniest thing I've seen on fb in a while, however, was "b.vaz likes mitt Romney" on the sidebar thingy.  I lol'd.

[Hicks]

You know what also wasn't around during the Civil War?

An economy that even remotely resembles the one we have today.

Which makes it extra hilarious that anyone would think that Lincoln's thoughts on welfare etc. would be applicable to today's economic climate.

[mbw]

oh my...

[runawayjimbo]

You know what also wasn't around during the Civil War?

An economy that even remotely resembles the one we have today.

Which makes it extra hilarious that anyone would think that Lincoln's thoughts on welfare etc. would be applicable to today's economic climate.

C'mon, Hicks. I know you're just going for the cheap points, but let's not get carried away.

Copernicus figured out the Earth wasn't the center of the universe without a telescope. Adam Smith didn't know shit about invisibility or hands (probably), but he's quoted in every single Econ text on demand, supply, and equilibrium (i.e., chapter 1). Sun Tzu fought people with rocks and sticks but he's still considered the greatest strategist (militarily and otherwise) ever to write those funny letters on a page.

I don't mind you objecting to the ideas in the quote, but pretending underlying truths don't exist because technology has brought about changes the ancients could never dream of is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Oh yeah, and they weren't even Lincoln's thoughts. How many times do we have to go over this?! :wink:

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go give $100M to Sarah Silverman.

[PIE-GUY]

Looks like Barry got to fulfill every Texan's one true wish... getting high on Willie's bus!

[VDB]

Looks like Barry got to fulfill every Texan's one true wish... getting high on Willie's bus!

tokes jelly