So, this might be cool and/or interesting. I was surfing The Youtubes the other night, and came across a link that someone did for a Coventry photo essay backed by the SBD of the Coventry Piper.
I'd never listened to that Piper before, so I was curious. So I decided to listen to it. This particular version, I think, best exemplifies the Jekyll/Hyde nature of Phish at that time.
The intro and lyrics are so.... weird.... its super delicate, and then BAM its fucking "Holy shit Phish is angry".
But MY GOD, this JAM. I'm not sure I can point to a Piper jam that has any more volume or intensity; this shit is literally a raging freight train of nuclear waste tumbling off the tracks. Trey, quite literally, seems fucking possessed. He actually SHREDS in this jam. Competently. Fluidly.
Fishman's drumming at first is pretty dumb, he's playing like a 9 year old trying to play a punk beat. Page hammers the piano during the verse break, throwing all this odd dissonance in.
I'd really like to know what you guys think of this... rather than just stupid Coventry cliche responses. Because I know that if I had never *actually* gave it a listen, then there are people here who either also haven't, or don't actually remember it.
I mean, by 4:41, this shit is BRILLIANT. You would never be able to tell, if given just this portion, that this was from Coventry.
At 5:44 Trey is just enshrouded in madness. Its incredible. 6:46, and we have "real" Phish. This shit is SO gnarly!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTnFF69N_xY
I'd really like to see a discussion on this, so I'm asking nicely. There is no actual discussion on this board about Phish really anymore and thats lame, and I need something to talk about with you guys, for reasons. So thanks in advance.
this is some of the only coventry i have heard as well besides some of the more notable trainwrecks that are infamous.
trey is definitely playing his heart out here, for sure under some type of spell. the others can barely keep up with him. good stuff, you guys.
thread title sucks tho.
Agreed. One of the few highlights from the weekend.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the AC/DC Bag is pretty amazeballs.
Quote from: Hicks on October 27, 2012, 02:06:29 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the AC/DC Bag is pretty amazeballs.
this is quickly becoming my favorite phish show.
Quote from: mirthbeatenworker on October 27, 2012, 02:53:08 PM
Quote from: Hicks on October 27, 2012, 02:06:29 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the AC/DC Bag is pretty amazeballs.
this is quickly becoming my favorite phish show.
:hereitisyousentimentalbastard
The split jam is pretty solid too, iirc.
Hicks, you need to know the 8/10/04 ACDC Bag sbd. Thats the version that Trey tries to fruitlessly re-play at Coventry. the 8/10/04 ACDC Bag is heaven.
I think it peaks really well, but it also just sounds like this meandering mess of psychedelia. I don't know if that is intentional or a product of them (Trey) being fucked out of the gourd. I like it, and I do miss that they used to be able to go somewhere like that. It's very psychedelic to me.
Yeah, exactly! This Piper is full-on rage. I like to think of it as the last "real" section of Phish music. The Piper -> Cool Jerk > Dickie thing, and then the Slave actually explodes very well. And then Trey snorted the rest of his heroin and forgot he wrote The Curtain With.
Its weird shit like this that has me liking so much of PH Phish. When they finally clicked, it was the greatest music they ever played. Thats why the 6/19/04 Piper is the best thing the band ever played. It was a mature version of shit like the Bozeman Tweezer. It goes in just as many places. But then it has that orgiastic 5 minute peak in the middle. Mike's bassline towards one of the turnarounds says that its true.
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 29, 2012, 09:40:05 AM
Yeah, exactly! This Piper is full-on rage. I like to think of it as the last "real" section of Phish music. The Piper -> Cool Jerk > Dickie thing, and then the Slave actually explodes very well. And then Trey snorted the rest of his heroin and forgot he wrote The Curtain With.
Its weird shit like this that has me liking so much of PH Phish. When they finally clicked, it was the greatest music they ever played. Thats why the 6/19/04 Piper is the best thing the band ever played. It was a mature version of shit like the Bozeman Tweezer. It goes in just as many places. But then it has that orgiastic 5 minute peak in the middle. Mike's bassline towards one of the turnarounds says that its true.
No, it wasn't. It's not even close to that. Is it good? Sure. But what they were doing 94-95 in terms of improv far surpasses everything else.
No way are you guys going to convince me to listen to Coventry again.
Quote from: sophist on October 29, 2012, 09:50:16 AM
No, it wasn't. It's not even close to that. Is it good? Sure. But what they were doing 94-95 in terms of improv far surpasses everything else.
It must be a matter of values, then. I don't deny that what they were doing in 94/95 was incredible. But for me, when I hear shit like the 6/19/04 Piper, 8/10/04 ACDC Bag, 6/23/04 Crosseyed, 7/30/03 Scents, etc, there's this... this like, "grown up" quality. Its more legit, maybe? I'm not quite sure how to explain it. Refined? Processed? Deliberate? Serious?
Because the 94/95 stuff to me, sounds like exploration more-so for exploration's sake. Like when Trey stumbles into the Tweeprise shit at the end of the Bozeman Tweezer, its a total accident. They don't sound completely in control.
And I guess thats what does it for me with the later stuff, when they get to "that place", they seem to be so much more in control and able to more precisely refine the magic into that transcendent groove. They would have NEVER found the space in the 8/10/04 ACDC Bag anywhere else in their career.
I mean, dude, listen to the 6/19/04 Piper. I mean for real. Because that goes in all the same directions and multitudes of directions that Mud Island does. But its more coherent. The themes/movements are more mature and "sensible" in a way, even though that's not at all the right wording. Its got so much more POWER behind it, as a whole piece, than the whirling 94/95 stuff that is all over the map.
By the way, 11/26/94 Bowie > Providence, imo.
****sidenote**** kind of waiting to shoot myself in the foot with that, because I'm listening to the 5/24/88 Curtain With right now. 21 minutes long. Type II madness, so I've read. It sounds like there's 2 drummers... there's REALLY fucking cool wood-block shit going on early in the jam but Fish is holding the ride down.
Quote from: rowjimmy on October 29, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
No way are you guys going to convince me to listen to Coventry again.
I'd actually love to hear what you think about what happens in that Piper jam, because its seriously bonkers-energy.
When I hear 2.0 phish, I occasionally catch myself liking it, so then I go back and listen to some December 95 nasty-nast and then I'm like yup way better
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 29, 2012, 10:00:43 AM
Quote from: rowjimmy on October 29, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
No way are you guys going to convince me to listen to Coventry again.
I'd actually love to hear what you think about what happens in that Piper jam, because its seriously bonkers-energy.
Don't hold your breath.
Quote from: rowjimmy on October 29, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
No way are you guys going to convince me to listen to Coventry again.
what he said
Not really digging this Piper. Sounds like standard '04 opiate wankage to me, not much listening going on imo...
Quote from: WhatstheUse? on October 31, 2012, 11:40:04 AM
Sounds like standard '04 opiate wankage to me
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 29, 2012, 09:40:05 AMThats why the 6/19/04 Piper is the best thing the band ever played.
You guys are dumb-retarded if you think the 6/19/04 Piper is opioid wankage. Jus'sayin'.
Also, sidebar, I just discovered the 8/9/98 ACDC Bag is Type II. Holy cow.
Quote from: WhatstheUse? on October 31, 2012, 11:40:04 AM
Not really digging this Piper. Sounds like standard '04 opiate wankage to me, not much listening going on imo...
Yeah there isn't much happening per se, my amazement was more about the anger/energy it contains. I mean, that shit is seriously jet-fueled with raw emotion.
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 31, 2012, 12:57:36 PM
my amazement was more about the anger/energy it contains. I mean, that shit is seriously jet-fueled with raw emotion.
This, I can agree with.
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 31, 2012, 12:56:45 PM
Also, sidebar, I just discovered the 8/9/98 ACDC Bag is Type II. Holy cow.
Wait till you get to encore...
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 31, 2012, 12:56:45 PM
You guys are dumb-retarded if you think the 6/19/04 Piper is opioid wankage. Jus'sayin'.
we all romanticize our first, the difference, most people eventually put context to it.
Quote from: V00D00BR3W on October 31, 2012, 01:12:30 PM
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 31, 2012, 12:56:45 PM
Also, sidebar, I just discovered the 8/9/98 ACDC Bag is Type II. Holy cow.
Wait till you get to encore...
what, do they jam out a Bouncin' > Rocky Top?
Quote from: sophist on October 31, 2012, 01:17:21 PM
we all romanticize our first, the difference, most people eventually put context to it.
This disappoints me, dude. Especially coming from you. I thought you would be one of the few people who can see through its own context and discern the greatness it holds.
If only Phan would do a minute by minute run-down... ;)
I listened to it the whole second set of 6/19/04 about a month ago. It struck me as the epitome of 2.0. Wading through shit to get to moments of brilliance. The totality overall though doesn't hold up to me. I'd argue the following are all better 2.0 jams
7/9/03 Gin
7/15/03 Mr. Completely
IT Waves
6/20/04 7 Below
I dig the IT chalkdust too as far as 2.0 jams go.
I'd say IT was probably the high point of 2.0.
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 31, 2012, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: sophist on October 31, 2012, 01:17:21 PM
we all romanticize our first, the difference, most people eventually put context to it.
This disappoints me, dude. Especially coming from you. I thought you would be one of the few people who can see through its own context and discern the greatness it holds.
If only Phan would do a minute by minute run-down... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOqKySQZfeA
Quote from: emayPhishyMD on October 31, 2012, 01:38:15 PM
I dig the IT chalkdust too as far as 2.0 jams go.
check out the Camden version from a couple days before... (along with Scents & Subtle Sounds)
Quote from: McGrupp on October 31, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
I'd say IT was probably the high point of 2.0.
I can agree with that. I saw some great shows in 03, Greensboro comes to mind immediately, but wasn't at IT unfortunately.
Quote from: antelope19 on November 01, 2012, 11:13:11 AM
Quote from: McGrupp on October 31, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
I'd say IT was probably the high point of 2.0.
I can agree with that. I saw some great shows in 03, Greensboro comes to mind immediately, but wasn't at IT unfortunately.
I was there and was a little disappointed with certain sections of the show. Those were the 1st shows I had seen since 1999 so I noticed a difference in the structure of their jams. Now looking back, I keep IT in semi regular rotation and appreciate it way more. But that 46 days blew my mind at the time and I remember being pretty psyched during the Bowie.
Alright, so Gumbo sent some pm's asking me to revisit this 6-19-04 Piper. I sent this as a reply, but I'll post it publicly as well.
QuoteAlright. Gonna live blog this mother fucker since a) work is slow and b) it will best articulate my thoughts in real time
I can't listen to lp.com SBD's, so I am listening to an aud. I just hate them. Their sound sucks imo, especially from this era.
Alright, things are kicking off.
~1 minute chill intro dropping right into the first refrain.
Vocals sound shot, but that's the smoked opiates at work. Page sounds fine, Trey just sounds rough. Mike sounds alright.
Lots of energy after the first refrain. They kick the volume up a notch. Dynamics - who'd have thought it's a valid concept? ::sends memo to 3.0 Phish::
2nd refrain + 3rd refrain ->>>> tempo increase
lift off to teh jam ~3:40
vintage opiate Trey tone to begin this one. Fish sounds manic. Hovering between G major and A minor with the tonality.
~4:45 feedback and loops. Shit's layered. Trey 8th and 16th notes on top and out of the feedback. Fish matching the crazy, sporadic nature of Trey. It works. Page going from piano to keys. That light synth sound. Good contrast here. Mike just holding the tonality down.
~6:28 Trey dropping his first theme. Very similar tonal structure to the C+P theme. band reacts. locks in.
They sound fine. The groove is there. There is variation like it should be. It's playful.
~7:40 Plinko esque sound
hanging on those minor 7th chords
accent wise there is a lot of variation and it drops into a halftime beat before speeding back up to the preceding tempo. Trey throwing the accents around - 2nd, 3rd, and 4th beats, alternating measures. Page meanders a bit here. This is the searching I think of when I mention 2.0. Does it sound fine? Sure, but its not a lock in, if this was 95, it would have already sky rocketed into something. This is hanging to familiarity until it repeats into something new. A noble concept.
~10:42 sounds conflicted
Page trying to push one way, Trey pushing for a peak
more minor 7th action.
Honestly, this is the shit that is boring to me. It's straight forward improv. There is nothing adventurous about this to me.
~12:05 Page making the push to go somewhere, Trey throwing in off beats left and right
slowly coming back together.
At times it sounds like Phish doesn't know who to follow. It's very much controlled entropy
~12:52 getting ambient
2nd theme development, which is also the typical sounding 2.0 jam. Hang on the minor 3rd to create mad tension. Beat emphasis on beat # 3.
Page and Mike sound good. Trey takes a moment to lock in here. Fish is on point.
When the beat drops at ~14:54 is when it comes together. Almost Mission Impossible theme esque in it's nature. Huge use of minor 3rd tonal structures.
Okay, this is more up my ally. Gets dark and goes somewhere tonally. Has purpose and drive. Variation and development. I've always found this to be the best part of the jam. I'd also say you're wrong in calling this a tweezprise. It's different harmonically speaking. But it does sound like it.
~17 getting heavier and building
Mike is really on point here.
Trey locks in well here. He really plays to the rest of the band. His choice to try to peak it is a little immature in my opinion. But you can tell he wants the RAWK STAR peak.
This is good but also sloppy as shit. Flubs left and right as they play this simple theme. Fish is constantly hitting the cymbals on the wrong beat and it just throws the jam off in my opinion.
~19:30 moving forward. Pending modulation. To me this is again, vintage 2.0, it falls apart in a non cohesive way. Where they have to really work to find the next theme and build it. Is the push to leave the theme worth it? Sure. They are trying to go somewhere, and I dig that. I just don't think you can hear a clear cut vision or leader in this. They all sound aimless at times.
~21 Trey working in a modulation back to major
~21:30 Kind of a symphonic build. Doesn't hit me as I think it should. In listening now, it seems rather disappointing, as they peak is more a volume increase than an actual flurry of new ideas. Louder isn't always better (and we know that now all too well).
Parts of this are very similar to the tweezprise, other parts no. Kind of mixed as to the intent with it.
~25:30 trying really hard to peak it
This goes on too long in my opinion. It's way too drawn out.
~27 minutes seguing out of the peak
~28 going back to minor. Syncopated rhythms. I like that.
~30:30 Jiboo segue begins.
This is fine.
I think it's good, but I think they do a whole hell of a lot better earlier in their career. To me, this never gets out there enough. And that is a taste thing. It's what I want. Mind fucking psychedelia. Not play it safe vamping which is what happens with this jam at times.
I guess it comes down to a matter of taste, because while I see your point in the Tweeprise peak from 22:00 - 25:00 being a volume thing, I think the tension of Mike and Fish (which is heard MUCH MUCH better on the SBD) is what really drives it home.
Its Trey doing a chordal style of soloing, which i like hearing him do a lot.
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on November 05, 2012, 02:30:12 PM
I guess it comes down to a matter of taste, because while I see your point in the Tweeprise peak from 22:00 - 25:00 being a volume thing, I think the tension of Mike and Fish (which is heard MUCH MUCH better on the SBD) is what really drives it home.
Its Trey doing a chordal style of soloing, which i like hearing him do a lot.
Weren't you bangin' opiates outside of that SPAC show?
Maybe that's why you have such a deep connection with it.
I honestly don't think I've thought about this Piper since leaving the show that night. Bored me to tears.
Quote from: birdman on November 05, 2012, 03:22:44 PM
I honestly don't think I've thought about this Piper since leaving the show that night. Bored me to tears.
Yeah, I just walked around during it and just wanted it to end.
Quote from: McGrupp on October 31, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
I'd say IT was probably the high point of 2.0.
We've taught you well.
But seriously... Lots of win at IT--Ya Mar->Jim, Ghost, Chalkdust, Disease>NICU>Brother all rocked solid-- but some of the jams were just plain too long. The 46 Minutes left me cold then and still does.
Quote from: antelope19 on November 01, 2012, 11:13:11 AM
Quote from: McGrupp on October 31, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
I'd say IT was probably the high point of 2.0.
I can agree with that. I saw some great shows in 03, Greensboro comes to mind immediately, but wasn't at IT unfortunately.
Yeah. 2003 Greensboro and Charlotte both kicked ass. Walnut Creek, not so much.
Quote from: sophist on October 31, 2012, 01:17:21 PM
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on October 31, 2012, 12:56:45 PM
You guys are dumb-retarded if you think the 6/19/04 Piper is opioid wankage. Jus'sayin'.
we all romanticize our first, the difference, most people eventually put context to it.
Quote from: Augustus on November 05, 2012, 03:22:10 PM
Quote from: Gumbo72203 on November 05, 2012, 02:30:12 PM
I guess it comes down to a matter of taste, because while I see your point in the Tweeprise peak from 22:00 - 25:00 being a volume thing, I think the tension of Mike and Fish (which is heard MUCH MUCH better on the SBD) is what really drives it home.
Its Trey doing a chordal style of soloing, which i like hearing him do a lot.
Weren't you bangin' opiates outside of that SPAC show?
Maybe that's why you have such a deep connection with it.
:wink: :hereitisyousentimentalbastard
Quote from: sunrisevt on November 05, 2012, 03:46:36 PM
Quote from: McGrupp on October 31, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
I'd say IT was probably the high point of 2.0.
We've taught you well.
But seriously... Lots of win at IT--Ya Mar->Jim, Ghost, Chalkdust, Disease>NICU>Brother all rocked solid-- but some of the jams were just plain too long. The 46 Minutes left me cold then and still does.
that first set of IT is prob my favorite set ive ever seen.