Healthcare Content (Protest Instructions) >>>>>

[twatts]

$6,000 for Hicks to take his child to the ER is absurd, and should not be how it's handled period. The argument of "isn't $6000 worth bettering your kid's life" is insane. He did it to help his child, but (as he said, but I just want to reiterate) OF COURSE IT'S "WORTH IT", but it's also inherently fucking wrong.

1) He said OR, not ER.  That was my mistake. 
2) "Wrong" is relative.  He never stated what the procedure was, so we make a lot of assumptions.  If he said he paid a $6000 deductible to treat his child's cancer, it would totally be "right".  If he paid $6000 to have a wart removed, then its "wrong"...  But like I asked before, if paying $6000 wasn't worth it, why do it??? 

UNLIKE the hostage scenario he brought up before, taking your kid to the hospital is not involutary.  They did not kidnap his kid, do the procedure, then demand payment.  He walked in said here is my kid ready for surgery, where do I sign up???

Terry

*sigh*

You know what the details don't really matter, but it was a procedure to put tubes in her ears after she had three ear infections. 

To be honest I questioned whether she really needed it because her hearing seemed fine to me, she has always been very responsive to sounds and my voice.

But I'm not a doctor and was I going to take chances with her language development?

Of course not.

Do I feel like I sort of got scammed by the entire ordeal?

A little bit.

Paying $100 for the next 60 years, so she can hear for those 60 years doesn't seem like a scam to me...  But like I said, "wrong" is relative... 

Intertestingly enough, my cousin and her daughter are exactly there now...  She's had several ear infections, and they are debating tubes...  But Chad's mom said, "Chad had the same thing and he's fine!"  So now Nikki and Chad are mulling it over...

Want to know my story???  We paid $4000 to get have an ER Doctor check Cody's temp (105+), prescribe an anti-biotic, bitch at us for not following recommended vaccinations practices, and treat us like a bunch of mexicans...  I told my wife that we should wait one day (we took Cody to ER on a Sunday) so she could take Cody to the family doctor, but she was freaking out...  Was the medical treatment worth $4000???  Hell no!  She blew our entire HSA in one shot to make herself feel better...  That's "wrong"... 

Terry

[Hicks]

Heh, do I really need to type out the liberal response to where more money needs to come from?   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

[aphineday]

1. how is it out of context?

Because you chopped off several sentences of a coherent argument into a one liner that you took offense too. You're fucking O'Keef-ing me, and I think you're better than that.

2. thats a shit analogy

Why? Your point was that health insurers profit from people's misery. Doesn't a flaming wreck due to, I don't know, shitty brake pads, also cause misery? And if so, are the producers of that product responsible for that? Maybe you'd have taken less offense to my statement if I had qualified it as "no one profits from intentionally causing other's misery", but then you'd probably harp on the fact that health insurers willfully destroy people's live despite the evidence I provided above that, on the aggregate, completely blows that argument to shit.

3. alcohol is heavily regulated by the gov't

So what, so's health care? I don't think there's any disputing that alcohol causes misery (probably much more than health insurers who deny a whopping 2-3% of claims for apparently no other reason than to wipe their asses with $100s). But, following your logic, if they are profitting from people's misery, aren't they inherently evil?

3.) All of this talk about regarding healthcare denying claims as a "business protecting itself from a loss" is exactly the mindset I'm opposed to. Before you call me out (medical procedures aren't free, training doctors isn't free etc..), I get it. I forgot that Docs don't pay anything out of their pockets or take loans. IF we are going to pay for their training, then that's a completely different ballgame.

Now you want to pay for medical school too?!? You seem like a good dued, aphineday, so please take this with the sarcasm it is intended, but can I please get a hit of what you're smoking because it must be some sweet shit.

Let's take a different approach, since I agree that it would be great to give everyone the greatest healthcare in the world. But here's a quick and dirty calculation to illustrate my skepticism with single payer: since 1950, tax revenues have averaged 18% of GDP regardless of tax rates. Coincidentally, healthcare spending runs around 15% (not since 1950, but that's what it currently is). So, if you want the gov't to take over all healthcare spending, what do we get rid of? Hicks made the very salient point yesterday that maybe we should stop blowing shit up all over the world and we could save a buck or two. So let's cut the defense budget by more than half to roughly $350B (I assume you recognize the need to have some level of defense spending). Now let's say the efficiencies of a gov't provided plan cuts healthcare spending by half (I can hardly type that with a straight face, but let's go for it), bringing total healthcare spending to around a trillion dollars. That brings healthcare and defense spending to about $1.35T or almost two-thirds of the entire budget (note if you are less generous with the cost reductions and assume only 1/4 reduction in healthcare spending, the two amount to 95% of current tax revenues). So you guys tell me: what do you want to start cutting in order to provide this glorious healthcare regime you're talking about? This is all assumes that having a monopoly in healthcare has no other adverse effects like stifiling innovation or the politicization of every individual's healthcare decisions (which I believe would have very severe outcomes on people's health). So while it's all good to talk in broad vagueries like our current presiednt likes to do, just do the math. This shit doesn't add up.

I said IF...
I wasn't advocating this, just making a "what if" statement.

[mbw]

Want to know my story???  We paid $4000 to get have an ER Doctor check Cody's temp (105+), prescribe an anti-biotic, bitch at us for not following recommended vaccinations practices, and treat us like a bunch of mexicans...  I told my wife that we should wait one day (we took Cody to ER on a Sunday) so she could take Cody to the family doctor, but she was freaking out...  Was the medical treatment worth $4000???  Hell no!  She blew our entire HSA in one shot to make herself feel better...  That's "wrong"... 

Terry

yes, it seems your wife is the correct person to blame for the grossly inflated cost of taking a temperature and writing a prescription.

[Hicks]

$6,000 for Hicks to take his child to the ER is absurd, and should not be how it's handled period. The argument of "isn't $6000 worth bettering your kid's life" is insane. He did it to help his child, but (as he said, but I just want to reiterate) OF COURSE IT'S "WORTH IT", but it's also inherently fucking wrong.

1) He said OR, not ER.  That was my mistake. 
2) "Wrong" is relative.  He never stated what the procedure was, so we make a lot of assumptions.  If he said he paid a $6000 deductible to treat his child's cancer, it would totally be "right".  If he paid $6000 to have a wart removed, then its "wrong"...  But like I asked before, if paying $6000 wasn't worth it, why do it??? 

UNLIKE the hostage scenario he brought up before, taking your kid to the hospital is not involutary.  They did not kidnap his kid, do the procedure, then demand payment.  He walked in said here is my kid ready for surgery, where do I sign up???

Terry

*sigh*

You know what the details don't really matter, but it was a procedure to put tubes in her ears after she had three ear infections. 

To be honest I questioned whether she really needed it because her hearing seemed fine to me, she has always been very responsive to sounds and my voice.

But I'm not a doctor and was I going to take chances with her language development?

Of course not.

Do I feel like I sort of got scammed by the entire ordeal?

A little bit.

Paying $100 for the next 60 years, so she can hear for those 60 years doesn't seem like a scam to me...  But like I said, "wrong" is relative... 

Intertestingly enough, my cousin and her daughter are exactly there now...  She's had several ear infections, and they are debating tubes...  But Chad's mom said, "Chad had the same thing and he's fine!"  So now Nikki and Chad are mulling it over...

Want to know my story???  We paid $4000 to get have an ER Doctor check Cody's temp (105+), prescribe an anti-biotic, bitch at us for not following recommended vaccinations practices, and treat us like a bunch of mexicans...  I told my wife that we should wait one day (we took Cody to ER on a Sunday) so she could take Cody to the family doctor, but she was freaking out...  Was the medical treatment worth $4000???  Hell no!  She blew our entire HSA in one shot to make herself feel better...  That's "wrong"... 

Terry

LOL  The tubes only stay in her ears for 9 months, so there's a 20% chance we will have to have it done again in the next couple of years.

So much for your 60 years calculation.

[twatts]

Want to know my story???  We paid $4000 to get have an ER Doctor check Cody's temp (105+), prescribe an anti-biotic, bitch at us for not following recommended vaccinations practices, and treat us like a bunch of mexicans...  I told my wife that we should wait one day (we took Cody to ER on a Sunday) so she could take Cody to the family doctor, but she was freaking out...  Was the medical treatment worth $4000???  Hell no!  She blew our entire HSA in one shot to make herself feel better...  That's "wrong"... 

Terry

yes, it seems your wife is the correct person to blame for the grossly inflated cost of taking a temperature and writing a prescription.

LOL!  Like I told her (you can see it above), she just bought a lamborghini to drive to the mall...  If she had waited until the next day, we would have only had to pay for a Yugo...  We (she) made the decision to use emergency services, and so we have to pay.  Its really that simple... 

Did you pay the $6k / go through the procedure yet?  Did you get a second opinion from another doctor outside of your first doctor's practice? 

Terry

[twatts]

$6,000 for Hicks to take his child to the ER is absurd, and should not be how it's handled period. The argument of "isn't $6000 worth bettering your kid's life" is insane. He did it to help his child, but (as he said, but I just want to reiterate) OF COURSE IT'S "WORTH IT", but it's also inherently fucking wrong.

1) He said OR, not ER.  That was my mistake. 
2) "Wrong" is relative.  He never stated what the procedure was, so we make a lot of assumptions.  If he said he paid a $6000 deductible to treat his child's cancer, it would totally be "right".  If he paid $6000 to have a wart removed, then its "wrong"...  But like I asked before, if paying $6000 wasn't worth it, why do it??? 

UNLIKE the hostage scenario he brought up before, taking your kid to the hospital is not involutary.  They did not kidnap his kid, do the procedure, then demand payment.  He walked in said here is my kid ready for surgery, where do I sign up???

Terry

*sigh*

You know what the details don't really matter, but it was a procedure to put tubes in her ears after she had three ear infections. 

To be honest I questioned whether she really needed it because her hearing seemed fine to me, she has always been very responsive to sounds and my voice.

But I'm not a doctor and was I going to take chances with her language development?

Of course not.

Do I feel like I sort of got scammed by the entire ordeal?

A little bit.

Paying $100 for the next 60 years, so she can hear for those 60 years doesn't seem like a scam to me...  But like I said, "wrong" is relative... 

Intertestingly enough, my cousin and her daughter are exactly there now...  She's had several ear infections, and they are debating tubes...  But Chad's mom said, "Chad had the same thing and he's fine!"  So now Nikki and Chad are mulling it over...

Want to know my story???  We paid $4000 to get have an ER Doctor check Cody's temp (105+), prescribe an anti-biotic, bitch at us for not following recommended vaccinations practices, and treat us like a bunch of mexicans...  I told my wife that we should wait one day (we took Cody to ER on a Sunday) so she could take Cody to the family doctor, but she was freaking out...  Was the medical treatment worth $4000???  Hell no!  She blew our entire HSA in one shot to make herself feel better...  That's "wrong"... 

Terry

LOL  The tubes only stay in her ears for 9 months, so there's a 20% chance we will have to have it done again in the next couple of years.

So much for your 60 years calculation.

Oh, so the effects of placing tubes in her ears only last 9 months???  After that she just goes stone deaf???  Or maybe the effects last a life-time... 

So much for your counter...

Terry

[Hicks]

It's done, I didn't pay 6K, that was the bill before insurance. 

As bvaz pointed out part of that gets written off, but how the fuck does that much get invoiced in the first place is my whole point.

[Hicks]

$6,000 for Hicks to take his child to the ER is absurd, and should not be how it's handled period. The argument of "isn't $6000 worth bettering your kid's life" is insane. He did it to help his child, but (as he said, but I just want to reiterate) OF COURSE IT'S "WORTH IT", but it's also inherently fucking wrong.

1) He said OR, not ER.  That was my mistake. 
2) "Wrong" is relative.  He never stated what the procedure was, so we make a lot of assumptions.  If he said he paid a $6000 deductible to treat his child's cancer, it would totally be "right".  If he paid $6000 to have a wart removed, then its "wrong"...  But like I asked before, if paying $6000 wasn't worth it, why do it??? 

UNLIKE the hostage scenario he brought up before, taking your kid to the hospital is not involutary.  They did not kidnap his kid, do the procedure, then demand payment.  He walked in said here is my kid ready for surgery, where do I sign up???

Terry

*sigh*

You know what the details don't really matter, but it was a procedure to put tubes in her ears after she had three ear infections. 

To be honest I questioned whether she really needed it because her hearing seemed fine to me, she has always been very responsive to sounds and my voice.

But I'm not a doctor and was I going to take chances with her language development?

Of course not.

Do I feel like I sort of got scammed by the entire ordeal?

A little bit.

Paying $100 for the next 60 years, so she can hear for those 60 years doesn't seem like a scam to me...  But like I said, "wrong" is relative... 

Intertestingly enough, my cousin and her daughter are exactly there now...  She's had several ear infections, and they are debating tubes...  But Chad's mom said, "Chad had the same thing and he's fine!"  So now Nikki and Chad are mulling it over...

Want to know my story???  We paid $4000 to get have an ER Doctor check Cody's temp (105+), prescribe an anti-biotic, bitch at us for not following recommended vaccinations practices, and treat us like a bunch of mexicans...  I told my wife that we should wait one day (we took Cody to ER on a Sunday) so she could take Cody to the family doctor, but she was freaking out...  Was the medical treatment worth $4000???  Hell no!  She blew our entire HSA in one shot to make herself feel better...  That's "wrong"... 

Terry

LOL  The tubes only stay in her ears for 9 months, so there's a 20% chance we will have to have it done again in the next couple of years.

So much for your 60 years calculation.

Oh, so the effects of placing tubes in her ears only last 9 months???  After that she just goes stone deaf???  Or maybe the effects last a life-time... 

So much for your counter...

Terry

Uh the tubes fall out after nine months (unless they don't and have to be surgically removed  ) so there is a 20% chance that we are back to square one after that happens.

She was never stone deaf in the first place so I really don't know what you are getting at here.

[mbw]

Want to know my story???  We paid $4000 to get have an ER Doctor check Cody's temp (105+), prescribe an anti-biotic, bitch at us for not following recommended vaccinations practices, and treat us like a bunch of mexicans...  I told my wife that we should wait one day (we took Cody to ER on a Sunday) so she could take Cody to the family doctor, but she was freaking out...  Was the medical treatment worth $4000???  Hell no!  She blew our entire HSA in one shot to make herself feel better...  That's "wrong"... 

Terry

yes, it seems your wife is the correct person to blame for the grossly inflated cost of taking a temperature and writing a prescription.

LOL!  Like I told her (you can see it above), she just bought a lamborghini to drive to the mall...  If she had waited until the next day, we would have only had to pay for a Yugo...  We (she) made the decision to use emergency services, and so we have to pay.  Its really that simple... 

and by then maybe your kids brain would have been cooked like an egg on the hood of an overheated Jeep Sahara in the Sahara.

[runawayjimbo]

First, Santorum's not a faith healer or Christian Scientist; he's a cafeteria Catholic. He's not even been consistent in his adult life on his application of Catholic principles. But no, that's not the point...

You're right, it was a cheap shot at Santorum and I'll gladly do it again!! But like you said, on to the merits of the argument.

A sane national health plan would definitely cover contraception and reproductive health care broadly and at low cost to consumers, because it's a guaranteed cost-cutting measure. Unplanned pregnancies are much, much more costly to society than lots of rubbers, pills, IUDs, Plan Bs, etc.

I agree with you that bringing the gov't futher into health care is scary. But the corporate state has proved itself a miserably poor steward of the common good--in fact is was always insane to expect legal entities whose only raison d'etre is profit for shareholders to voluntarily keep the public good in mind in their pursuit of profit. I'm willing to consider models based on those of the UK & Western Europe as viable, sane alternatives.

Couldn't we provide those services in other ways? I'm married so I haven't bought condoms in years (because I don't get laid, get it!), but what do they run, $1 a piece? It was widely acknowledged that Fluke was pretty heavy handed with her estimate of how much birth control costs, especially when it was pointed out that she could have gone to the Target down the street and gotten it for $9/month. Seems to me that shit's already pretty cheap. Birth control could be even cheaper if we sold it OTC as it has no more harmful side effects than shit we can already get. Have you ever taken Mucinex? That shit gets my heart racing (but god damn does it clear the sinuses). But I didn't bring up contraception to say whether or not it should be covered, only to point out that every decision will be politicized when it comes to single payer, and that to me is a much more dangerous bed to sleep in.

And no, I'm not saying corporations are evil. I'm saying they need to get the fuck out of the businesses of providing health care, running prisons, providing military services, etc. Certain vital social functions should necessarily be the sole purview of the government, and I think health care has moved into that category over the last century.

I absolutely agree there are certain vital functions of the gov't, but I disagree that providing health care is one of them. We should certainly strive to provide universal coverage, but I'd rather it be done by lowering the cost of care through competition and innovation rather than by presidential fiat.

You know what the details don't really matter, but it was a procedure to put tubes in her ears after she had three ear infections. 

To be honest I questioned whether she really needed it because her hearing seemed fine to me, she has always been very responsive to sounds and my voice.

Hey, my daughter just had that too. Did she freak out inconsolably when she woke up from anesthesia? Mine screamed like she was in pain and seemed like she didn't even recognize us. That shit sucked.

Heh, do I really need to type out the liberal response to where more money needs to come from?   :hereitisyousentimentalbastard

Lemme guess, lapsed Bush tax for rich and the Buffet rule and some shit like that? Those two items would raise about $800B over ten years or less than the amount of all healthcare spending in 1 yr under my rosiest of assumptions. So you're gonna have to keep taxing the shit out of people to get anywhere close to gov't run healthcare.

[twatts]

Uh the tubes fall out after nine months (unless they don't and have to be surgically removed  ) so there is a 20% chance that we are back to square one after that happens.

She was never stone deaf in the first place so I really don't know what you are getting at here.

What I'm getting at is that I feel it is worth $6000 so that your daughter hearing/ears can be "fine" and would gladly pay it.  You feel that it isn't and had a hard time paying it.

In otherwords, what one person thinks is "right" or "wrong" about insurance doesn't mean the next has the same opinion...   

Terry

[DoW]

It's done, I didn't pay 6K, that was the bill before insurance. 

As bvaz pointed out part of that gets written off, but how the fuck does that much get invoiced in the first place is my whole point.

you have a valid point.  ti is just so second nature to me at this point.
there are issues with the health care payment structure.  I'll just leave it at that.

[Hicks]

Yep, she was really upset for about a half hour, wouldn't even nurse really which is very uncharacteristic of her. 

Shit man, jack dem tax rates back up to Eisenhower levels that should make a bigger dent. 

[twatts]

and by then maybe your kids brain would have been cooked like an egg on the hood of an overheated Jeep Sahara in the Sahara.

Or maybe the fever would have broken in a couple of hours, like it did...

But if it came down to that, we would have been in the ER - that's what its for.

To make my wife feel better when she's in a panic, that is not what its for... 

Terry