2012 Election Thread

[runawayjimbo]

Watching the SC debate really makes me understand the state a lot more.

MOD:  Gov. Romney, blah blah blah... Mexico...
BOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

MOD:  Dr. Paul, minorities are incarcerated 4x as much as whites. Is the judicial system inherently racist?
Paul:  Duh
::crickets::

MOD:  Spkr. Gingrich, do you see how saying "Black people have no work ethic" can piss some people off?
Gingrich:  Shut up, Juan Williams, poor students need to be janitors so they can learn how to work.
Standing O

Perry's having a strong debate tonight (3.0 curve), he might get a bounce. But I think Gingrich is going to be a pretty tough challenger to Romney here after tonight.

Also,

GQ really taps into the modern, internet porn loving, man's fantasy with this shot.

Except they all should be 'singing' into 'microphones'.

Lulz

[VDB]

I decided to throw on the recent hatchet job "When Mitt Romney Came to Town" tonight. Pretty remarkable that this came from a pro-Newt, ostensibly conservative super PAC. It truly is everything Occupy Wall Street wanted to say but didn't have the video production staff to pull off.

I'm a fan of free-market capitalism - honest - but I also like the idea of "capitalism with a conscience." As in, sure, Bain Capital could buy up these companies, they could fire the employees, slash costs, pile up debt and flip them for a quick profit, making millions for a select few at the expense of everyone else involved, but should they? Nah, probably not.

I don't think the corporate raiders who do this kind of thing ought to be hanged or beheaded or thrown in jail or any of that - hey, this kind of stuff is legal, after all - but maybe it's not unreasonable to say that we shouldn't elect someone who doesn't give a shit about the middle class to be president.

[Hicks]

I decided to throw on the recent hatchet job "When Mitt Romney Came to Town" tonight. Pretty remarkable that this came from a pro-Newt, ostensibly conservative super PAC. It truly is everything Occupy Wall Street wanted to say but didn't have the video production staff to pull off.

I'm a fan of free-market capitalism - honest - but I also like the idea of "capitalism with a conscience." As in, sure, Bain Capital could buy up these companies, they could fire the employees, slash costs, pile up debt and flip them for a quick profit, making millions for a select few at the expense of everyone else involved, but should they? Nah, probably not.

I don't think the corporate raiders who do this kind of thing ought to be hanged or beheaded or thrown in jail or any of that - hey, this kind of stuff is legal, after all - but maybe it's not unreasonable to say that we shouldn't elect someone who doesn't give a shit about the middle class to be president.

Do any of these clowns give a shit about the middle class?

I think not.

[twatts]

I decided to throw on the recent hatchet job "When Mitt Romney Came to Town" tonight. Pretty remarkable that this came from a pro-Newt, ostensibly conservative super PAC. It truly is everything Occupy Wall Street wanted to say but didn't have the video production staff to pull off.

I'm a fan of free-market capitalism - honest - but I also like the idea of "capitalism with a conscience." As in, sure, Bain Capital could buy up these companies, they could fire the employees, slash costs, pile up debt and flip them for a quick profit, making millions for a select few at the expense of everyone else involved, but should they? Nah, probably not.

I don't think the corporate raiders who do this kind of thing ought to be hanged or beheaded or thrown in jail or any of that - hey, this kind of stuff is legal, after all - but maybe it's not unreasonable to say that we shouldn't elect someone who doesn't give a shit about the middle class to be president.

Long ago, Men realized that most Human endeavors are led by one of the Seven Deadly Sins.  In the case of Capitalism, it is Greed.  Men, realizing the harm in their creations, created Religion to give Men a sense of Conscience.  In some sense, it has failed.  For this I attribute Sloth...

Terry
 

[sls.stormyrider]

I decided to throw on the recent hatchet job "When Mitt Romney Came to Town" tonight. Pretty remarkable that this came from a pro-Newt, ostensibly conservative super PAC. It truly is everything Occupy Wall Street wanted to say but didn't have the video production staff to pull off.

I'm a fan of free-market capitalism - honest - but I also like the idea of "capitalism with a conscience." As in, sure, Bain Capital could buy up these companies, they could fire the employees, slash costs, pile up debt and flip them for a quick profit, making millions for a select few at the expense of everyone else involved, but should they? Nah, probably not.

I don't think the corporate raiders who do this kind of thing ought to be hanged or beheaded or thrown in jail or any of that - hey, this kind of stuff is legal, after all - but maybe it's not unreasonable to say that we shouldn't elect someone who doesn't give a shit about the middle class to be president.

Long ago, Men realized that most Human endeavors are led by one of the Seven Deadly Sins.  In the case of Capitalism, it is Greed.  Men, realizing the harm in their creations, created Religion to give Men a sense of Conscience.  In some sense, it has failed.  For this I attribute Sloth...

Terry

but he did help Forbin...



The outrage over Romney's estimate of his tax rate is interesting. Personally, I don't think it's fair that someone can make $ off interest and pay less taxes than those of us who actually work for our $. Whenever the Dems (or anyone) mentions raising the capital gains tax, the GOP raises hell. Now, supporters of Romney's opponents are are trying to use his low tax rate against Romney. So - change the law.

[VDB]

I decided to throw on the recent hatchet job "When Mitt Romney Came to Town" tonight. Pretty remarkable that this came from a pro-Newt, ostensibly conservative super PAC. It truly is everything Occupy Wall Street wanted to say but didn't have the video production staff to pull off.

I'm a fan of free-market capitalism - honest - but I also like the idea of "capitalism with a conscience." As in, sure, Bain Capital could buy up these companies, they could fire the employees, slash costs, pile up debt and flip them for a quick profit, making millions for a select few at the expense of everyone else involved, but should they? Nah, probably not.

I don't think the corporate raiders who do this kind of thing ought to be hanged or beheaded or thrown in jail or any of that - hey, this kind of stuff is legal, after all - but maybe it's not unreasonable to say that we shouldn't elect someone who doesn't give a shit about the middle class to be president.

Long ago, Men realized that most Human endeavors are led by one of the Seven Deadly Sins.  In the case of Capitalism, it is Greed.  Men, realizing the harm in their creations, created Religion to give Men a sense of Conscience.  In some sense, it has failed.  For this I attribute Sloth...

Terry

but he did help Forbin...



The outrage over Romney's estimate of his tax rate is interesting. Personally, I don't think it's fair that someone can make $ off interest and pay less taxes than those of us who actually work for our $. Whenever the Dems (or anyone) mentions raising the capital gains tax, the GOP raises hell. Now, supporters of Romney's opponents are are trying to use his low tax rate against Romney. So - change the law.

Right, it goes to show how politics is really just about fighting and winning. Party brethren will be bitter foes when all vying for the same one job, then snap into dutiful alignment once the opponent changes to the other party.

[VDB]

Just heard Rick Perry's dropping out. This would seem odd mere days before the SC primary, just in case he could score some last-gasp hope here, unless it's calculated to throw his socially conservative, anti-Mitt supporters' votes to Newt rather than split that vote.

[gah]

I decided to throw on the recent hatchet job "When Mitt Romney Came to Town" tonight. Pretty remarkable that this came from a pro-Newt, ostensibly conservative super PAC. It truly is everything Occupy Wall Street wanted to say but didn't have the video production staff to pull off.

I'm a fan of free-market capitalism - honest - but I also like the idea of "capitalism with a conscience." As in, sure, Bain Capital could buy up these companies, they could fire the employees, slash costs, pile up debt and flip them for a quick profit, making millions for a select few at the expense of everyone else involved, but should they? Nah, probably not.

I don't think the corporate raiders who do this kind of thing ought to be hanged or beheaded or thrown in jail or any of that - hey, this kind of stuff is legal, after all - but maybe it's not unreasonable to say that we shouldn't elect someone who doesn't give a shit about the middle class to be president.

You can' t be a fan of free market capitalism if you don't believe the second half of your paragraph there. That is their DEFINITION of free market capitalism. It is greed without a conscience.

Do any of these clowns give a shit about the middle class?

I think not.

Agreed.

[Hicks]

Just heard Rick Perry's dropping out. This would seem odd mere days before the SC primary, just in case he could score some last-gasp hope here, unless it's calculated to throw his socially conservative, anti-Mitt supporters' votes to Newt rather than split that vote.

GO NEWT!     GO NEWT!     GO NEWT!     GO NEWT!     GO NEWT!

[VDB]

I decided to throw on the recent hatchet job "When Mitt Romney Came to Town" tonight. Pretty remarkable that this came from a pro-Newt, ostensibly conservative super PAC. It truly is everything Occupy Wall Street wanted to say but didn't have the video production staff to pull off.

I'm a fan of free-market capitalism - honest - but I also like the idea of "capitalism with a conscience." As in, sure, Bain Capital could buy up these companies, they could fire the employees, slash costs, pile up debt and flip them for a quick profit, making millions for a select few at the expense of everyone else involved, but should they? Nah, probably not.

I don't think the corporate raiders who do this kind of thing ought to be hanged or beheaded or thrown in jail or any of that - hey, this kind of stuff is legal, after all - but maybe it's not unreasonable to say that we shouldn't elect someone who doesn't give a shit about the middle class to be president.

You can' t be a fan of free market capitalism if you don't believe the second half of your paragraph there. That is their DEFINITION of free market capitalism. It is greed without a conscience.

I think Newt actually put it fairly well the other day. I just don't expect to keep hearing this kind of stuff coming out of his mouth outside a GOP primary where he's running against Mitt Romney:

Gingrich was holding little back in his criticism of Romney, saying that, in at least some instances, the Bain model has meant "leverage the game, borrow the money, leave the debt behind and walk off with all the profits."

"Now, I'll let you decide if that's really good capitalism. I think it's exploitive. I think it's not defensible," he said.

Gingrich continued that what Romney engaged in "is not venture capital."

"Venture capital is when you go in and put in your capital and you stick it out," he said.

Gingrich has faced rebuke in some quarters as attacking the GOP bedrock of free enterprise in his criticism of Romney and Bain. But he argued Tuesday that raising questions about Romney's track record at Bain should not be confused with an attack on capitalism.

"I'm proud of real capitalists. I'm proud of guys who say to their workers I'm in it with you. If I lose money and you lose a job we lost together because we both tried," he said.

via

[gah]

I don't even know how to respond to that.

real capitalists. I'm proud of guys who say to their workers I'm in it with you. If I lose money and you lose a job we lost together because we both tried

?!?!?

Explain that to the millions of unemployed people right now, who have lost their jobs due to cheaper labor elsewhere, i.e. capitalism externalizing it's costs, while their employers/corporations continue to rake in more money due to  higher profit margins. Capitalism by definition is exploitive. And the fact that the GOP candidates are even arguing it is laughable. It's what they stand for. Attacking what Mitt Romeny did, "leverage the game, borrow the money, leave the debt behind and walk off with all the profits"...is precisely what the GOP stands for, which brings us back to your point...

but maybe it's not unreasonable to say that we shouldn't elect someone who doesn't give a shit about the middle class to be president.

Not unreasonable at all, which is why Hicks said,

Do any of these clowns give a shit about the middle class?

I think not.

[VDB]

I'm not sure if you're arguing against the very notion of having people/groups who invest money into businesses hoping they can turn a profit on that investment, and pursuing that profit not only for its own sake but also as a means to offset losses.

Whether it's private venture capital firms or Joe Blow buying stock in a NYSE-listed company, the basic idea is the same: invest your money and hope for a return. Diversify to hedge against losses. I'm not sure if it's this concept you find distasteful or just its real-world application today.

In a pure, hypothetical free market as I like to imagine it, everyone gets what they want because quality is rewarded with success. This gets perverted because, in practice, what people actually value is not quality but low price above all else and convenience second. So, on the whole, it seems that one of the biggest determinants of whether a business is rewarded in the marketplace is if it can offer its shit cheap, cheap, cheap. The consumer might feel like he won because he got a good deal, the business shareholders might win because they made a big profit, and the people in the middle -- the people who make the widget -- are the ones getting screwed (yes, exploited) because their labor isn't really deemed to be worth very much. Or, the job is taken away altogether and offshored.

If the charges against Bain are to be believed, there were instances in which they came in, bought businesses, fired off employees, compromised quality, and somehow managed to flip the companies for a profit anyway. So lots of people got screwed except Bain and its shareholders. I think that's a different approach to capitalism and investment than what Newt claims, today anyway, to be a proponent of, and the version I've described.

I do agree that it's pretty flabbergasting to see this debate taking place inside the GOP, of all places, because it's always seemed that they hold as a sacred truth that the profit motive is completely above reproach, and therefore any criticism of an action taken in the pursuit of profit is automatically disqualified from consideration.

[runawayjimbo]

I don't even know how to respond to that.

real capitalists. I'm proud of guys who say to their workers I'm in it with you. If I lose money and you lose a job we lost together because we both tried

?!?!?

Explain that to the millions of unemployed people right now, who have lost their jobs due to cheaper labor elsewhere, i.e. capitalism externalizing it's costs, while their employers/corporations continue to rake in more money due to  higher profit margins. Capitalism by definition is exploitive. And the fact that the GOP candidates are even arguing it is laughable. It's what they stand for. Attacking what Mitt Romeny did, "leverage the game, borrow the money, leave the debt behind and walk off with all the profits"...is precisely what the GOP stands for,

Gingrich is such a self-aggrandizing dickhole there's no reason to respond to it, GAH. He (like Romney) will say any focus group-tested statement that his campaign has determined will move the needle. So he'll rail against Romney for his "vulture capitalism" now and in the same breath call Obama a socialist. He is the epitome of hypocrisy (see the whole "higher standard"/Lewinsky soap opera that unfolded as he was cheating on his wife with a 20-yr old staffer).

I do, however, respectfully disagree with your idea that capitalism is exploitive (or is it exploitative?). Capitalism is the only economic system that can efficiently allocate resources to all people's benefit. You're right, people will lose their jobs as firms seek to reduce their costs, but more people benefit from the lower priced goods that come as a result of that. How many people could afford an iPhone if it had a "Made in U.S.A." label? Not to mention the millions of people around the world who have been lifted out of poverty from companies "shipping jobs overseas." I don't think those people's well being should be excluded when conducting a capitalism cost-benefit analysis just because they weren't lucky enough to be born within our borders. I know this treads into the whole theory vs real world argument, but you'll never convince me that capitalism in itself is an evil.

The bigger problem, IMO, is not capitalism but corporatism, which is what we really have today. Power is concentrated in the wealthy and the politically connected. Money buys influence in gov't who in turn dole out favors to their favored special interests which creates the inequalities - in income, in opportunities, in freedoms - that we suffer from today.

In a pure, hypothetical free market as I like to imagine it, everyone gets what they want because quality is rewarded with success. This gets perverted because, in practice, what people actually value is not quality but low price above all else and convenience second. So, on the whole, it seems that one of the biggest determinants of whether a business is rewarded in the marketplace is if it can offer its shit cheap, cheap, cheap. The consumer might feel like he won because he got a good deal, the business shareholders might win because they made a big profit, and the people in the middle -- the people who make the widget -- are the ones getting screwed (yes, exploited) because their labor isn't really deemed to be worth very much. Or, the job is taken away altogether and offshored.

Tell that to the people who shop at Whole Foods. What about the people who pay tens of thousands more for a Prius? In fact, some of the most profitable businesses are not the Wal-Marts of the world but the Apples who provide a high quality user experience that people are willing to pay a premium for. The issue, as I see it, is not that the average person values discounts but that he is forced to make his dollars stretch further and further as more of his earnings are striped away by taxes and inflation to fund endless wars and psychotic banker bailouts.

If the charges against Bain are to be believed, there were instances in which they came in, bought businesses, fired off employees, compromised quality, and somehow managed to flip the companies for a profit anyway. So lots of people got screwed except Bain and its shareholders. I think that's a different approach to capitalism and investment than what Newt claims, today anyway, to be a proponent of, and the version I've described.

FWIW (and I can't believe I have to defend Romney here), I think I saw that the charges in the movie were widely exaggerated and that the one (or handful) of deals mentioned where Bain did raid a company happened after Romney had left. There's plenty of reasons to dislike the flip-flopping robot, but it seems like the reports in the movie were pretty obscene distortions of the truth (as hard as that is to believe that an "unaffiliated" super PAC would smear another candidate).

[VDB]

In a pure, hypothetical free market as I like to imagine it, everyone gets what they want because quality is rewarded with success. This gets perverted because, in practice, what people actually value is not quality but low price above all else and convenience second. So, on the whole, it seems that one of the biggest determinants of whether a business is rewarded in the marketplace is if it can offer its shit cheap, cheap, cheap. The consumer might feel like he won because he got a good deal, the business shareholders might win because they made a big profit, and the people in the middle -- the people who make the widget -- are the ones getting screwed (yes, exploited) because their labor isn't really deemed to be worth very much. Or, the job is taken away altogether and offshored.

Tell that to the people who shop at Whole Foods. What about the people who pay tens of thousands more for a Prius? In fact, some of the most profitable businesses are not the Wal-Marts of the world but the Apples who provide a high quality user experience that people are willing to pay a premium for. The issue, as I see it, is not that the average person values discounts but that he is forced to make his dollars stretch further and further as more of his earnings are striped away by taxes and inflation to fund endless wars and psychotic banker bailouts.

You're right about premium brands, of course, and I intentionally painted with a broad brush as, for every person who eats at Ruth's Chris, there are scores more who go to McDonald's; for everyone who shops at Whole Foods, there are lots more who get their groceries at Walmart. Hell, even Apple -- like you say -- had to move its supply chain overseas in order to offer products at a price point consumers would pay.

There are surely a host of reasons for it, some of which you suggest, but ultimately price is one of the most powerful influencers on consumer decision-making. I imagine this was really compounded by the globalization of supply chains as companies and consumers realized just how inexpensive things could get. Ever hear a 60-year-old talk about how much his first color TV cost? Holy smokes.

[VDB]

I totally bonked and didn't realize there was a debate last night. Wish I had watched it.

When CNN Chief National Correspondent John King opened the debate with a question about open marriage, following an interview by Gingrich's ex-wife saying that he had sought one, the Republican chastised him.

"To take an ex-wife and make it two days before the primary a significant question in a presidential campaign is as close to despicable as anything I can imagine," Gingrich told King, the moderator of the debate.

Yup. Newt thinks that's just about the most despicable thing imaginable. He also thinks hyperbole is better than sex, Jesus, sliced bread and double rainbows combined.